Lose Guaranteed Bonus Or Be Made Redundant?

[wayoutwest]

If you were contractually entited to it then its fully taxable and subject to PAYE, sorry!

If you waived it and then, later, they paid you a redundancy payment that you were not contractually entitled to them it would be possible that its tax free.

The Revenue will be on the look out for the magical conversion of past / guaranteed bonuses into redundancy payments in the finance industry.

Six months is a probationary period, not a basis for a 17k pay-off, in the real world.

Edited November 19, 2008 by wayoutwest

[JustYield]

Not at all, it you dont ask you dont get. I think the best outcome would be to keep the job because £60k jobs are going to be increasingly difficult to find. I dont see the harm in at least asking for this guarantee. Besides, they are not exactly going back on the £17k bonus, they are just saying he will be made redundant if he doesn't waive it, which is similar but not the same to them saying that they just wont pay it.

Getting legal advice and recording conversations is also sensible.

"£60k jobs are going to be increasingly difficult to find." ... and keep.

You don't see this as a one-two punch as he is ejected from the firm?

"they are not exactly going back on the £17k bonus,"

er, that's exactly what they are doing!

[mervyn]

If you are concerned about giving up the payout then being binned anyway, then I would make the waiver of the guaranteed bonus conditional upon not being canned. If you do get canned (possibly within a pre-agreed period), then the guaranteed bonus becomes payable.

[worzel]

"£60k jobs are going to be increasingly difficult to find." ... and keep.

You don't see this as a one-two punch as he is ejected from the firm?

"they are not exactly going back on the £17k bonus,"

er, that's exactly what they are doing!

No they are not, they are saying he can have the bonus, but lose his job, which is much the same scenario he was in when he took the job, the bonus was guaranteed but the job, like all jobs is not.

If as I suggested he is able to get a written commitment from them on his job for say two years, then this is the prefereable option. We do not know all the facts. At no point did I say, waive the bonus and take their word for it that the job is secure.

[youthoftoday]

If you are concerned about giving up the payout then being binned anyway, then I would make the waiver of the guaranteed bonus conditional upon not being canned. If you do get canned (possibly within a pre-agreed period), then the guaranteed bonus becomes payable.

If you think he has any realistic chance of negotiating any kind of deal you are mistaken (and probably have zero experience of the workplace). His choice is:

1) Bend over and take it up the .... with the lubrication of a £17k bonus.

2) Bend over and take it up the .... after having agreed the company can do it to him without the aid of lubrication.

Either way it's not pleasant (unless you're into that sort of thing).

[babesagainstmachines]

Take the bonus and retrain into a proper job.

The days of their being thousands of well paid finance jobs are over for quite a long time, unless you went to the right school and were in the right societies at Oxbridge.

[worzel]

If you think he has any realistic chance of negotiating any kind of deal you are mistaken (and probably have zero experience of the workplace). His choice is:

1) Bend over and take it up the .... with the lubrication of a £17k bonus.

2) Bend over and take it up the .... after having agreed the company can do it to him without the aid of lubrication.

Either way it's not pleasant (unless you're into that sort of thing).

Maybe you're just not so good at negotiating things? I have seen all sorts of unusual arrangements being made in the workplace. It could be that this arrangement suits the employer, they can defer the bonus / redundancy for a few months or more whilst their re-structuring takes place, no need to pay the bonus now and no need to recruit a temp to fill the gap if he takes the bonus and runs because he knows his job is toast anyway.

[mfp123]

If you think he has any realistic chance of negotiating any kind of deal you are mistaken (and probably have zero experience of the workplace). His choice is:

1) Bend over and take it up the .... with the lubrication of a £17k bonus.

2) Bend over and take it up the .... after having agreed the company can do it to him without the aid of lubrication.

Either way it's not pleasant (unless you're into that sort of thing).

i think he needs to get a grasp of the situation at the moment. people are losing their jobs left right and centre at the moment. unemployment is set to reach 3 million most job losses will come from the financial sector.

under todays environment its not exactly out of the question to see financial workers losing their bonuses. virtually all financial companies are under stress at the moment so its not a case of being shafted but survival.

most people here would not quit a 60k job that they only started months ago if they were in your position, no matter what they may say to you on this board.

the average person would be happy to stay in a 60k job without any bonus in the first place.

the main issue you need to consider is that it is usually first in first out, so will they make you redundant anyway? if not, and they are happy to keep you, you should hold on to your job with both hands and ride out the storm.

Edited November 19, 2008 by mfp123

[Taylorrian]

I agree with most posters.

Forfeit bonus, keep job for 2 years (get a contract written up).

However, if the company has a bankrupcy risk, the contract wont be worth the paper its printed on, so you could lose out twice.

[sirius]

you cant sue for unfair dismissal until you've worked at a place for 1 year. your employer will know this. if you stay, i expect they'll fire you after 11 months employment.

[mervyn]

If you think he has any realistic chance of negotiating any kind of deal you are mistaken (and probably have zero experience of the workplace). His choice is:

1) Bend over and take it up the .... with the lubrication of a £17k bonus.

2) Bend over and take it up the .... after having agreed the company can do it to him without the aid of lubrication.

Either way it's not pleasant (unless you're into that sort of thing).

Maybe, but at the very least it might give the guy at little clarity as to his prospects- after all, if this company refuse to give any sort of re-assurance as to his future then it gives an indication of things to come and he can make decisions accordingly. No company will think worse of someone for trying to negotiate in this manner.

Edited November 19, 2008 by mervyn

[Shamrock]

I should have said this is in finance

I can either take the guaranteed bonus and be out of a job (possibly for six months on a bad estimate) or sit tight.

If I took the bonus I would almost certainly do a CFA course in this time and concentrate on that so the time is not completely wasted.

Personally my view is to take the bonus and run.

I have enough savings to tie me over for a year at least - Plus I could do with a holiday

Just out of interest, what role do you do in Finance?

If you have a highly sought after skill then take the money and run.

Your employer does sound a bit short sighted, getting rid of a £60k employee for the sake of £17k.

[Trifle]

If it were me, I'd take the bird in the hand & go. Then use the free time to improve my life, while living frugally.

Agree with Dazednconfused that things are never going to be quite the same again. It sounds like your employer is a sinking ship, so don't be the last rat to leap. But also do speak to an employment solicitor, who will have insights we don't.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Trifle

[youthoftoday]

Maybe you're just not so good at negotiating things? I have seen all sorts of unusual arrangements being made in the workplace. It could be that this arrangement suits the employer, they can defer the bonus / redundancy for a few months or more whilst their re-structuring takes place, no need to pay the bonus now and no need to recruit a temp to fill the gap if he takes the bonus and runs because he knows his job is toast anyway.

It's not a case of deferring the bonus. They don't want to pay it. The only reason they're talking to him about it is that if they can get him to sign it away then when and I do mean WHEN they kick him out (which will be soon) they've saved £17K and he can't sue for breach of contract.

Lets look at the facts:

1) Unless other redundancy terms are stated in his contract he is not entitled to redundancy pay (less than 2 years service)

2) Not entitled to claim unfair dismissal (less than 1 year service)

3) They aren't going to employ a temp after they've given him the boot.

One party in these 'negotiations' is the sheep and one is the ravenous wolf. I know which one the OP is.

The only leverage he has is the guaranteed £17k. Give it up and you've got nothing. He won't be able to negotiate any terms that are worth more than the £17K as the company has no interest in increasing the cost of sacking him.

Edited November 19, 2008 by youthoftoday

[youthoftoday]

Maybe, but at the very least it might give the guy at little clarity as to his prospects- after all, if this company refuse to give any sort of re-assurance as to his future then it gives an indication of things to come and he can make decisions accordingly. No company will think worse of someone for trying to negotiate in this manner.

He has no future at the company, why do you believe he has? Do you think house prices won't go down? Wake up and smell the coffee.

[youthoftoday]

Your employer does sound a bit short sighted, getting rid of a £60k employee for the sake of £17k.

Actually they are going to be saving his £60K salary as well since they have no intention of employing him much longer.

[RapMan]

most people here would not quit a 60k job that they only started months ago if they were in your position, no matter what they may say to you on this board.

OP said:

If I took the bonus I would almost certainly do a CFA course in this time and concentrate on that so the time is not completely wasted.

...

I have enough savings to tie me over for a year at least - Plus I could do with a holiday

So, given OP's position I would indeed leave the position knowing full well that I had enough savings to tied myself over for over a year whilst still extending my skillsbase to make myself more valuable when the market does recover.

I recently jumped ship on an 800EUR per day contract as the future did not look rosy. Sometimes it's better to be in control of your destiny than allow others to steer your path.

[Tonkers]

60K four years out of Uni..........what did you study???

Must be the son of an MP.

[andydtaylor]

3 things:

1. Contact an Employment Solicitor. I used the below recommended by a solicitor friend when Goldmans wanted me out earlier in the year:

Russell Jones & Walker +44 (0)20 7837 2808 - I spoke with Harriet.

2. Bear in mind that even if you were fortunate enough to negociate a 2 year contract they can always force you out later on 'performance grounds'.

3. In terms of Settlement you could reasonably expect about 3 months pay plus your notice AND the guaranteed bonus you'd be forgoing. This is approx £30k for you tax free (plus your notice period pay - sadly taxable) and you'd be free to find another job immediately. If you're anything like as good as your pay level indicates you should not struggle to be re-employed. And this time you get to chose what in. I'm now working as a Carbon (EU ETS) analyst and it's leaps and bonds more interesting than Equity Derivatives.

Good luck with the CFA. I'm doing L II (again...) next year. It's all interesting stuff and it will help you to get jobs in the future - as a job winner more than qualifier, but still worthwhile.

Are you at Citi BTW?

Regards,

Andrew

Edited November 19, 2008 by andydtaylor

[JustYield]

The only leverage he has is the guaranteed £17k. Give it up and you've got nothing. He won't be able to negotiate any terms that are worth more than the £17K as the company has no interest in increasing the cost of sacking him.

Spot on. It's 17K or 0, not 17K or happily ever after at 60K. It's over.

Worzel is in a dream world. That's OK, we need dreamers.

[worzel]

It's not a case of deferring the bonus. They don't want to pay it. The only reason they're talking to him about it is that if they can get him to sign it away then when and I do mean WHEN they kick him out (which will be soon) they've saved £17K and he can't sue for breach of contract.

Lets look at the facts:

1) Unless other redundancy terms are stated in his contract he is not entitled to redundancy pay (less than 2 years service)

2) Not entitled to claim unfair dismissal (less than 1 year service)

3) They aren't going to employ a temp after they've given him the boot.

One party in these 'negotiations' is the sheep and one is the ravenous wolf. I know which one the OP is.

The only leverage he has is the guaranteed £17k. Give it up and you've got nothing. He won't be able to negotiate any terms that are worth more than the £17K as the company has no interest in increasing the cost of sacking him.

How can you possibly know what he can and can't negotiate? The fact is you can't. So why advise so strongly not to try? He has nothing to lose by entering into these negotiations provided he doesn't agree to anything stupid.

[worzel]

Spot on. It's 17K or 0, not 17K or happily ever after at 60K. It's over.

Worzel is in a dream world. That's OK, we need dreamers.

The point is you are all saying there is no way he can get this or that. You do not know (unless you are the HR director of the comapny concerned). Without knowing the facts you are dreaming just as much as me. What does he have to lose by attempting these negotiations? What does he have to gain? That is the no brainer in my opinion.

And as for living in a dream world, I have worked in finance for 7 years, so maybe I do live in a dream world, however in that time I have seen all sorts of unusual redundancy arrangements, so its naive to assume that its black and white.

[Wonga]

Take the bonus money and run like hell..... they're probably gonna go under anyways!

Re-train at a college for further education. It's going to be a good place to be for the next 2/3 years IMO

[mfp123]

its not unreasonable for a company to want to cut bonuses during probably the worst recession we will see in 80 years, coupled with the worst financial crisis ever, in a position based in the financial industry.

this is exactly the time when bonuses should be cut - especially in his industry sector.

the recession could go on for years, it has all the hallmarks of what happened in japan - housing bubble, crash, stock market crash, banks going bust, now the prospect of deflation. its all very familiar.

if he wants to take a time out and retrains, the job he wants may no longer exist anymore in 2 years, or at the least companies wont be looking for new employees, especially in finance.

Edited November 19, 2008 by mfp123

[SHERWICK]

3 things:

1. Contact an Employment Solicitor. I used the below recommended by a solicitor friend when Goldmans wanted me out earlier in the year:

Russell Jones & Walker +44 (0)20 7837 2808 - I spoke with Harriet.

2. Bear in mind that even if you were fortunate enough to negociate a 2 year contract they can always force you out later on 'performance grounds'.

3. In terms of Settlement you could reasonably expect about 3 months pay plus your notice AND the guaranteed bonus you'd be forgoing. This is approx £30k for you tax free (plus your notice period pay - sadly taxable) and you'd be free to find another job immediately. If you're anything like as good as your pay level indicates you should not struggle to be re-employed. And this time you get to chose what in. I'm now working as a Carbon (EU ETS) analyst and it's leaps and bonds more interesting than Equity Derivatives.

Good luck with the CFA. I'm doing L II (again...) next year. It's all interesting stuff and it will help you to get jobs in the future - as a job winner more than qualifier, but still worthwhile.

Are you at Citi BTW?

Regards,

Andrew

You need to follow the advice of THIS person.