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For Those Who Think Hpc's Job Is Done


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I recall some posters a while back, reasonably so they thought, suggested that HPC.co.uk had come to the end of its useful life now there was no "battle" to fight, no-one left to persuade and no argument against the certainty of a crash.

But as we have seen from the recent developments, lies, continued denial, spin, excuses, misunderstandings and manipulation of known facts, in my view HPC is yet to achieve its final chapter, and is barely halfway through the book. Through the opaque and misted up windows in the way of clarity and understanding, it seems to me that the UK electorate STILL DOESN'T GET IT. The fundamental point that HPC has been making all along is still not filtering through. The perception is still out there that every person in the UK is somehow ENTITLED to regard property as not just somewhere to live, but a substitute for work, an investment above and beyond what it is in the long run capable of being and that somehow it will return into being an "opportunity" once the tide of doom recedes . Moreover it isn't getting through that houses, above all, serve a function just like any other commodity, service or object which has an intrinsic worth limited by the ability to afford it. By that I mean that if buying a house is beyond someone's reach, then it is worthless to even contemplate owning one.

You can tell that the message is not getting through by the use and misuse of language in practically every comment, article, broadcast and conversation you hear on this subject. A great deal of the use of manipulative and mendacious language is being ruthlessly exploited by every single ministerial and financial institution since the crash started. Instead of an honest and clear message emerging that house prices not only will decline, but NEED to decline, we are told that at all costs the impending crash must urgently be softened, mitigated, curtailed, aided, bailed out and de-fibrulated. Every government minister attached, however remotely, to housing issues, has been trained like a pavlonian dog to respond to any searching question with a script so false and so controlled that it is almost sinister.

From the front benches to the junior ministerial department, everyone is speaking with one voice. The trouble is that voice is laced with a poison of lies, fraudulent claims and downright moral blackmail. The blackmail started with the banks virtually threatening to wind themselves up unless they were given a gargantuan sum of tax payers cash, but with absolutely no transparency as to how this sum is to be spent or squandered. Already there is substantial evidence to show that this massive draft of opium is doing nothing more than making the patient even more ill than before. Meanwhile the electorate has been persuaded that as long as they go along with the plan, somehow the pain will be lessened and, eventually, they can all return to their former hobby of turning property into the roulette game it always was meant to be.

The entirely spurious focus on interest rates has already established one myth to top all the other myths: that apparently it is the duty of government to make housing more affordable again by making loans cheap once more. But, staring people in the face yet ignored, is another simple solution: The goal should be, in the minds of anyone with the slightest hold on reality, that the way to make property affordable once more is to REDUCE ITS CAPITAL COST PERMANENTLY, NOT TO REDUCE THE INTEREST ON THE LOAN BY WHICH IT IS PURCHASED. In a way, it is understandable why this simple notion is not being investigated or admitted, for the government has already dug itself a hole from which it feels it cannot escape. It has too firmly established the former, not latter premise. The government has now committed itself to effectively doing its best to support the insanely over-priced commodity which is housing, because it knows that in the previous ten years, it established a habit of entitlement and greed from which an escape is (in its view) political suicide.

But nations are more important than their governments, and Brown, Darling, Cooper, King and all the other bit part players are presiding over what is in my opinion a massive deception about the nature of what property is, how it functions and what its limitations are. And I have said this many times before but cannot help repeating it: Every single penny profit that has been made by buying property and sitting idly by waiting for it to inflate does not come free. All this profit has resulted in two distinct things: Firstly that profit has been paid for DIRECTLY by gullible first time buyers eager to climb on the bandwagon, and they managed to pay what they could not possibly afford by lying about their income with the encouragement and indeed INSISTANCE of almost every bank, building society and broker. On top of that, the profit that could not be paid for is now being paid by the very people who wanted absolutely no part of this game. Bear in mind that the profits already taken have been tax free in most cases, but those that are paying for the profligacy of others are doing so from disposable income AFTER they have already been taxed. A double whammy if you include this, and a triple whammy if you include the bail out burden.

It is true that housing is going to crash anyway, so why the fuss? The problem lies in the missed opportunity to firmly establish, right now, that the party is truly over. Yet it is clear that in many people's minds there is a disconnection of understanding between the so-called credit crunch, the banking meltdown and their own part in the whole story. They fail to see that they, as individuals, are equally reponsible for where we are now. They simply do not understand that the exotic holidays, new kitchens and new cars they have purchased when they were riding on the crest has all been paid for by others not in the same part of the cycle as them, and that the shortfall that hasn't been paid, through subsequent negative equity and other reasons, is now being paid in the form of hedge fund failures, repackaged and worthless mortgages and lastly the huge sums now burdening the tax payer for perhaps a decade to come.

In short, the whole mess has been a massive shift of wealth, through pure luck, from one section of the population to another. If only those who purchased houses a year ago at ludicrous prices could have seen what total mugs they were taken for. They simply did not, and I suspect still do not, understand that they were willingly using their tax paid disposable income to subsidise the excesses of those higher up the pyramid, in of course the naive assumption that they could join in the game before it imploded. It should be any government's job, and equally importantly the job of a national broadcaster, to educate people about how the system which they have now been totally screwed by, works. But all those opportunities have been missed, or rather flagrantly and negligently bypassed.

The result is that it seems likely that at some point in the future, the whole ridiculous roulette game will carry on where it left off. So for that reason alone, and in anticipation of the war of truths and lies, of deceptions and manipulation going on right now, housepricecrash.co.uk has never been more needed, more relevant and more vital, for it is still virtually a lone voice about issues on which the mainstream media, despite its very late game of catch up, is still woefully out of touch.

VP

Edited by VacantPossession
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I agree - there is more to be done.

My suggestion would be more pinned topics, pointing out pitfalls, EASpeak, govt lies, VI Spin etc. So anyone visiting the site will see straight away that buying is a very bad idea right now. Or maybe just one topic pinned - "Why not to Buy"

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Amen to that. I agree that public perception isn't quite there yet.

I've been reading a lot of posts over on MSE and the bull/VI postings seem to have returned in force. I wouldn't mind if they posted logical arguments, but they seem to ignore the wider economic situation and post circular arguments along the lines of 'property prices won't fall because I don't want them to'. Anyone disagreeing is a 'doom-monger' or 'bitter priced out renter.'

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I recall some posters a while back,

Every government minister attached, however remotely, to housing issues, has been trained like a pavlonian dog to respond to any searching question with a script so false and so controlled that it is almost sinister.

VP

Enjoyed reading that thanks!

You reminded me af something that I thought about as to why we see Politicians as lying scum bags.

My pet theory is that like the dogs you have mentioned they are trained SO highly in body language and speech techniques that they stiffen up into a seized robotic-like stature.

Check out how artificially controlled all Cameron's appearances are.

They are taught to hang on to lecterns, clasp their hands and like Prince Charles shuffle his cuffalinks to subdue body language tendencies such as (the simple) wipe/touch nose when telling porkies.

Obama did a right 'faux pas' recently doing this on one of his speeches telling them "the Truth"

Now you know why - no body language signals - not humanoid(interpreted naturally as a cover up/don't trust)!

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I recall some posters a while back, reasonably so they thought, suggested that HPC.co.uk had come to the end of its useful life now there was no "battle" to fight, no-one left to persuade and no argument against the certainty of a crash.

But as we have seen from the recent developments, lies, continued denial, spin, excuses, misunderstandings and manipulation of known facts, in my view HPC is yet to achieve its final chapter, and is barely halfway through the book. Through the opaque and misted up windows in the way of clarity and understanding, it seems to me that the UK electorate STILL DOESN'T GET IT. The fundamental point that HPC has been making all along is still not filtering through. The perception is still out there that every person in the UK is somehow ENTITLED to regard property as not just somewhere to live, but a substitute for work, an investment above and beyond what it is in the long run capable of being and that somehow it will return into being an "opportunity" once the tide of doom recedes . Moreover it isn't getting through that houses, above all, serve a function just like any other commodity, service or object which has an intrinsic worth limited by the ability to afford it. By that I mean that if buying a house is beyond someone's reach, then it is worthless to even contemplate owning one.

You can tell that the message is not getting through by the use and misuse of language in practically every comment, article, broadcast and conversation you hear on this subject. A great deal of the use of manipulative and mendacious language is being ruthlessly exploited by every single ministerial and financial institution since the crash started. Instead of an honest and clear message emerging that house prices not only will decline, but NEED to decline, we are told that at all costs the impending crash must urgently be softened, mitigated, curtailed, aided, bailed out and de-fibrulated. Every government minister attached, however remotely, to housing issues, has been trained like a pavlonian dog to respond to any searching question with a script so false and so controlled that it is almost sinister.

From the front benches to the junior ministerial department, everyone is speaking with one voice. The trouble is that voice is laced with a poison of lies, fraudulent claims and downright moral blackmail. The blackmail started with the banks virtually threatening to wind themselves up unless they were given a gargantuan sum of tax payers cash, but with absolutely no transparency as to how this sum is to be spent or squandered. Already there is substantial evidence to show that this massive draft of opium is doing nothing more than making the patient even more ill than before. Meanwhile the electorate has been persuaded that as long as they go along with the plan, somehow the pain will be lessened and, eventually, they can all return to their former hobby of turning property into the roulette game it always was meant to be.

The entirely spurious focus on interest rates has already established one myth to top all the other myths: that apparently it is the duty of government to make housing more affordable again by making loans cheap once more. But, staring people in the face yet ignored, is another simple solution: The goal should be, in the minds of anyone with the slightest hold on reality, that the way to make property affordable once more is to REDUCE ITS CAPITAL COST PERMANENTLY, NOT TO REDUCE THE INTEREST ON THE LOAN BY WHICH IT IS PURCHASED. In a way, it is understandable why this simple notion is not being investigated or admitted, for the government has already dug itself a hole from which it feels it cannot escape. It has too firmly established the former, not latter premise. The government has now committed itself to effectively doing its best to support the insanely over-priced commodity which is housing, because it knows that in the previous ten years, it established a habit of entitlement and greed from which an escape is (in its view) political suicide.

But nations are more important than their governments, and Brown, Darling, Cooper, King and all the other bit part players are presiding over what is in my opinion a massive deception about the nature of what property is, how it functions and what its limitations are. And I have said this many times before but cannot help repeating it: Every single penny profit that has been made by buying property and sitting idly by waiting for it to inflate does not come free. All this profit has resulted in two distinct things: Firstly that profit has been paid for DIRECTLY by gullible first time buyers eager to climb on the bandwagon, and they managed to pay what they could not possibly afford by lying about their income with the encouragement and indeed INSISTANCE of almost every bank, building society and broker. On top of that, the profit that could not be paid for is now being paid by the very people who wanted absolutely no part of this game. Bear in mind that the profits already taken have been tax free in most cases, but those that are paying for the profligacy of others are doing so from disposable income AFTER they have already been taxed. A double whammy if you include this, and a triple whammy if you include the bail out burden.

It is true that housing is going to crash anyway, so why the fuss? The problem lies in the missed opportunity to firmly establish, right now, that the party is truly over. Yet it is clear that in many people's minds there is a disconnection of understanding between the so-called credit crunch, the banking meltdown and their own part in the whole story. They fail to see that they, as individuals, are equally reponsible for where we are now. They simply do not understand that the exotic holidays, new kitchens and new cars they have purchased when they were riding on the crest has all been paid for by others not in the same part of the cycle as them, and that the shortfall that hasn't been paid, through subsequent negative equity and other reasons, is now being paid in the form of hedge fund failures, repackaged and worthless mortgages and lastly the huge sums now burdening the tax payer for perhaps a decade to come.

In short, the whole mess has been a massive shift of wealth, through pure luck, from one section of the population to another. If only those who purchased houses a year ago at ludicrous prices could have seen what total mugs they were taken for. They simply did not, and I suspect still do not, understand that they were willingly using their tax paid disposable income to subsidise the excesses of those higher up the pyramid, in of course the naive assumption that they could join in the game before it imploded. It should be any government's job, and equally importantly the job of a national broadcaster, to educate people about how the system which they have now been totally screwed by, works. But all those opportunities have been missed, or rather flagrantly and negligently bypassed.

The result is that it seems likely that at some point in the future, the whole ridiculous roulette game will carry on where it left off. So for that reason alone, and in anticipation of the war of truths and lies, of deceptions and manipulation going on right now, housepricecrash.co.uk has never been more needed, more relevant and more vital, for it is still virtually a lone voice about issues on which the mainstream media, despite its very late game of catch up, is still woefully out of touch.

VP

I am in no doubt now that HPC stands for house price catastrophe (not for me as I STR just in time - moved out last month :rolleyes: ) but do you think there will be another house price peak (and crash) in 20 years time, or will lessons by learnt and incorporated into gov policy to stop this from happening again.

The view I am getting from EAs persuading me to buy is that it doesn't matter if prices drop a bit within 10 years they'll be higher still so if planning to stay for a while drops don't matter if this is the right house. Part of me thinks that sheeple are so stupid that this could easily happen! We are in no rush but would welcome views on this :unsure:

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Guest barebear

I was one of the heretics I even started a post about it.

Does this mean I will get my bottom spanked by a senior veteran or just demoted to a mere regular.

In my defence I can still recite a Realistic bear post and I do still hate rampant HPI and liar loans already.

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Agree with this.

My concern is that HPC at the minute has kind of turned in against itself. With no unifying development to argue for, everyone's ranting about which flavour of illuminati were to blame ( :rolleyes: ), whether to put your money in Gold or bananas, silly house lottery schemes etc...

Pinned topics would help so new visitors don't have to wade through the huge amount of piffle we're all spouting now to find the good stuff :lol:

That may be true, but not so long ago, any topic that was about the wider financial situation and not immediately about house prices was moved off-topipc. I argued at the time (to no avail) that the wider financial situation is directly associated with house prices. Thankfully, such topics are now allowed on the main forum.

HPC may have as its main remit a discussion on house prices, but since there are so many variables that affect house prices, imo these also should be discussed on the main forum.

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I hope that through the HPC website many formally complacent people will be motivated to question that which is habitually taken for granted.

The ill-understood nature and history of money, the immense power that its issuance confers, the intimate relationship between politics, taxation and the banking system, the secretive power complexes such as Bilderberg – all of these and more have been shown by posters to be highly relevant.

“Follow the money” is good advice. HPI/HPC is an object lesson of how the uncontrolled commercial power to expand the money-numbers and charge interest on them can produce massive but unearned transfers of wealth through alternating inflation and deflation.

The resultant suffering, deprivation, indignation and bewilderment of the general, trusting population might even be great enough this time around to lead to genuine change, and the HPC website will have played its part. Well, we can always hope.

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I am in no doubt now that HPC stands for house price catastrophe (not for me as I STR just in time - moved out last month :rolleyes: ) but do you think there will be another house price peak (and crash) in 20 years time, or will lessons by learnt and incorporated into gov policy to stop this from happening again.

The view I am getting from EAs persuading me to buy is that it doesn't matter if prices drop a bit within 10 years they'll be higher still so if planning to stay for a while drops don't matter if this is the right house. Part of me thinks that sheeple are so stupid that this could easily happen! We are in no rush but would welcome views on this :unsure:

Just keep on following :lol:

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Guest AuntJess
Excellent and well ordered piece. It's a shame just to keep it on here -you must have spent quite some time writing it -there must be other forums where you can give it wider exposure?

I agree. Cracking post VP. ^_^ Since the Nulab/Gorgo remix, houses have been branded "wealth-bringers" and every greedy bugger - and his dog - is determined to wring every shekel out of their property, thinking that somehow, THEY are entitled to money at someone else's expense. I think it will take a while to sink in with many, as, like Nelson, they take care to hold the spy-glass of reality to their blind eye.

There are none so blind as those who will not see. <_<

Edited by AuntJess
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Excellent and well ordered piece. It's a shame just to keep it on here -you must have spent quite some time writing it -there must be other forums where you can give it wider exposure?

I'm a newbie and there should be a seprate tab entitled HPC members views - and great posts like that could be saved for posterity - so all newbie could read. there doesn't need to be a facility to respond.

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The big debate now (imho) is can the system take the falls (and massive deflation) that are coming.

…I don’t think it can, we aren’t going to see 15 to 20% falls a year for the next 3 years or so without a collapse - forget it, its impossible, it will not, can’t and won’t happen (this is/should be the real debate).

Regarding EA’s/ sellers not reducing prices - I wouldn’t worry about it, its not real (they may as well ask for 10x what they‘re asking and the outcome would be the same…… ).

Edited by gfromls
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The big debate now (imho) is can the system take the falls (and massive deflation) that are coming.

…I don’t think it can, we aren’t going to see 15 to 20% falls a year for the next 3 years or so without a collapse - forget it, its impossible, it will not, can’t and won’t happen (this is/should be the real debate).

Regarding EA’s/ sellers not reducing prices - I wouldn’t worry about it, its not real (they may as well ask for 10x what they‘re asking and the outcome would be the same…… ).

I see what you are saying but are you falling into a trap of assuming that because assets are worth less cash than they were, that they suddenly cease to exist or have a diminished usefulness? Food will still be produced, oil will still fuel engines, and houses won't actually explode. They will be just a lot cheaper and yes a lot of people are going to lose wealth they gained before. If the price of fridges, or tv sets or haircuts suddenly halved that might be a case of celebration. The only difference here is that a disproportionate and fictional value has been attached to property which has gone quite beyond anything sustainable and millions have been hoodwinked into thinking the mere ownership of property gives them a perpetual free lunch. What is the alternative to propping up their absurd former value: keep the fiction going?

If a nation's entire economy is to collapse because its over reliance on bricks and mortar as a substitute for real wealth and real productivity is so fragile, then clearly a major adjustment was needed all along. The meltdown is nothing more than a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to something that had got completely out of hand. Rather than attempting to cushion the fall with artificial and questionable measures which are in themselves very expensive, on balance I feel it is better to let the whole thing collapse under its own weight. A period of pain now cannot be avoided. Better to let it happen.

VP

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luckyly mongs like cgnob have removed themself from here but there are equally fuking stupid people namely on the house lottery thread who have lost the plot and are in a world of their own and new viewers to this site will be rightfully scared off that it is full of fukin idiots.

There are some of the best posters I have seen on the entire internerd on here but some utter ficking freaks too

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luckyly mongs like cgnob have removed themself from here but there are equally fuking stupid people namely on the house lottery thread who have lost the plot and are in a world of their own and new viewers to this site will be rightfully scared off that it is full of fukin idiots.

There are some of the best posters I have seen on the entire internerd on here but some utter ficking freaks too

...it would be a bit boring if we were all the same....we need simple people like me to post now and again...in the meantime those who think HPCs job is done are the optimists...the crash is only at the 1st chapter of the beginning.... <_<

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I see what you are saying but are you falling into a trap of assuming that because assets are worth less cash than they were, that they suddenly cease to exist or have a diminished usefulness? Food will still be produced, oil will still fuel engines, and houses won't actually explode. They will be just a lot cheaper and yes a lot of people are going to lose wealth they gained before. If the price of fridges, or tv sets or haircuts suddenly halved that might be a case of celebration. The only difference here is that a disproportionate and fictional value has been attached to property which has gone quite beyond anything sustainable and millions have been hoodwinked into thinking the mere ownership of property gives them a perpetual free lunch. What is the alternative to propping up their absurd former value: keep the fiction going?

If a nation's entire economy is to collapse because its over reliance on bricks and mortar as a substitute for real wealth and real productivity is so fragile, then clearly a major adjustment was needed all along. The meltdown is nothing more than a Newtonian equal and opposite reaction to something that had got completely out of hand. Rather than attempting to cushion the fall with artificial and questionable measures which are in themselves very expensive, on balance I feel it is better to let the whole thing collapse under its own weight. A period of pain now cannot be avoided. Better to let it happen.

VP

A mere 10-15% fall in house prices has led to a partial collapse and subsequent bailout of our banking system. This has led to rapid fall in the pound.

After Christmas we’ll see a rapid increase in unemployment, which will trigger forced selling and plunge us into a violent downward spiral. Property will be dumped onto the market, (contrary to what some believe, we haven’t seen that yet - but we will)

This will put further pressure on the banking system and subsequent efforts to protect it will (imho) damage the pound further, basically much more of what we’ve already seen.

Now, my point is this, I think a few on this forum think that by waiting a few years they’ll be able to buy property for next to nothing, but I just don’t think the banking system or the currency will be able to survive a few more years of this. Something has got to give.

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A mere 10-15% fall in house prices has led to a partial collapse and subsequent bailout of our banking system. This has led to rapid fall in the pound.

After Christmas we’ll see a rapid increase in unemployment, which will trigger forced selling and plunge us into a violent downward spiral. Property will be dumped onto the market, (contrary to what some believe, we haven’t seen that yet - but we will)

This will put further pressure on the banking system and subsequent efforts to protect it will (imho) damage the pound further, basically much more of what we’ve already seen.

Now, my point is this, I think a few on this forum think that by waiting a few years they’ll be able to buy property for next to nothing, but I just don’t think the banking system or the currency will be able to survive a few more years of this. Something has got to give.

It already has. The mythical debt = wealth thing.

Not all banks will go bust. Those that do not will not lend to the proletariat so readily.

Sterling will reflect the value of a currency not backed by productive industry

The U.K but especially England will econoicmally decline to a point where we'll be begging for EU money.

This is an end of the era for the U.K all under the stewardship of Grodon Brown.

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