Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum

The Global Debt Crisis - Britain's Problems As I See It


Setantii
 Share

Recommended Posts

As a nation we're drowning in a sea of debt.

This started in th 80's when credit cards became widely available to the masses, around the same time as Thatcher was killing the Unions and steering us towards globalization. We stopped becoming a nation that produced manufactuired goods and many folk ended up working in retail. The destruction of the Unions meant that the workers had no real bargaining power with their employees for better wages. However this was offset by the ability to gain access to easy credit, allowing us to buy all these shiny things from India and China and keeping retail workers in jobs. Also morgages were given out to many aspiring houseowners that were way beyond their means to pay back, this coupled with a BTL bubble that drove prices even higher.

Up to the present day and bad loans by the banking sector result in the "credit crunch" (also note the discourse behind this term - sounds far less severe than "debt crisis"). The Government bail out the banks with money they have to borrow (from where?) putting the taxpayers further into debt. There is going to be a big depression - when people stop buying the shiney stuff from India and China millions of retail workers will end up on the dole, costing more money that the Government doesn't actually have. If one section of the economy (the banks) is bailed out whilst all others are allowed to falter and die this could well prove to be an explosive mixture with the potential for huge civil unrest.

How the hell do we get out of this mess?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a nation we're drowning in a sea of debt.

This started in th 80's when credit cards became widely available to the masses, around the same time as Thatcher was killing the Unions and steering us towards globalization. We stopped becoming a nation that produced manufactuired goods and many folk ended up working in retail. The destruction of the Unions meant that the workers had no real bargaining power with their employees for better wages. However this was offset by the ability to gain access to easy credit, allowing us to buy all these shiny things from India and China and keeping retail workers in jobs. Also morgages were given out to many aspiring houseowners that were way beyond their means to pay back, this coupled with a BTL bubble that drove prices even higher.

Up to the present day and bad loans by the banking sector result in the "credit crunch" (also note the discourse behind this term - sounds far less severe than "debt crisis"). The Government bail out the banks with money they have to borrow (from where?) putting the taxpayers further into debt. There is going to be a big depression - when people stop buying the shiney stuff from India and China millions of retail workers will end up on the dole, costing more money that the Government doesn't actually have. If one section of the economy (the banks) is bailed out whilst all others are allowed to falter and die this could well prove to be an explosive mixture with the potential for huge civil unrest.

How the hell do we get out of this mess?

WE nationalize all our banks, we nationalize important resources and infrastructure such as what is left of north sea oil and gas, British coal and all the water companies, our railways waterways and airports.

We then get to work Apollo moon mission stylee on building windfarms all around our coast, the seven barrage and maximize our wave power. We retrofit the entire UK housing stock with cavity wall insulation, double galzing, roof insulation as well as fitting solar water heaters on houses - will cost billions i know - but we nationalized everything under a national emergency! We extensively help our farmers (this will stay a private entity) and set targets for 90% home grown food security.

Once we have done this, we will truly have the right to be Called GREAT Britain again, if we dont do this we take a decade long trip to second world economy!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Mr Parry
As a nation we're drowning in a sea of debt.

This started in th 80's when credit cards became widely available to the masses, around the same time as Thatcher was killing the Unions and steering us towards globalization. We stopped becoming a nation that produced manufactuired goods and many folk ended up working in retail. The destruction of the Unions meant that the workers had no real bargaining power with their employees for better wages. However this was offset by the ability to gain access to easy credit, allowing us to buy all these shiny things from India and China and keeping retail workers in jobs. Also morgages were given out to many aspiring houseowners that were way beyond their means to pay back, this coupled with a BTL bubble that drove prices even higher.

Up to the present day and bad loans by the banking sector result in the "credit crunch" (also note the discourse behind this term - sounds far less severe than "debt crisis"). The Government bail out the banks with money they have to borrow (from where?) putting the taxpayers further into debt. There is going to be a big depression - when people stop buying the shiney stuff from India and China millions of retail workers will end up on the dole, costing more money that the Government doesn't actually have. If one section of the economy (the banks) is bailed out whilst all others are allowed to falter and die this could well prove to be an explosive mixture with the potential for huge civil unrest.

How the hell do we get out of this mess?

Agree entirely and you are correct in saying this process began back in the 1980's.

It's a levelling of the playing field due to globalisation and an end of the age of decadence which has brought many a civilisation throughout human history either to it's knees or wiped it out all together leaving but a trace of it's existence.

Smiffy's also right. This time the UK really does have to get back to basics. Energy, construction, agriculture and infrastructure along with longer term goals achieved by education and rewarding those who really matter (bin men instead of bankers).

My only concern is that we just shot our collective bolt by diverting what money/credit is available through the very people that failed us rather than the activities that really matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WE nationalize all our banks, we nationalize important resources and infrastructure such as what is left of north sea oil and gas, British coal and all the water companies, our railways waterways and airports.

We then get to work Apollo moon mission stylee on building windfarms all around our coast, the seven barrage and maximize our wave power. We retrofit the entire UK housing stock with cavity wall insulation, double glazing, roof insulation as well as fitting solar water heaters on houses - will cost billions i know - but we nationalized everything under a national emergency! We extensively help our farmers (this will stay a private entity) and set targets for 90% home grown food security.

Once we have done this, we will truly have the right to be Called GREAT Britain again, if we don't do this we take a decade long trip to second world economy!

Bang on.

I confidently predict that no politician will have the balls or the nous to suggest such a practical, common sense approach. It would leave people far too self-sufficient & independent and that would never do....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agree entirely and you are correct in saying this process began back in the 1980's.

It's a levelling of the playing field due to globalisation and an end of the age of decadence which has brought many a civilisation throughout human history either to it's knees or wiped it out all together leaving but a trace of it's existence.

Smiffy's also right. This time the UK really does have to get back to basics. Energy, construction, agriculture and infrastructure along with longer term goals achieved by education and rewarding those who really matter (bin men instead of bankers).

My only concern is that we just shot our collective bolt by diverting what money/credit is available through the very people that failed us rather than the activities that really matter.

extremly well said mr parry.

were in a hole and were still digging.

we as a nation need to realise this and find more productive use of our time and resources, for the greater good of all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WE nationalize all our banks, we nationalize important resources and infrastructure such as what is left of north sea oil and gas, British coal and all the water companies, our railways waterways and airports.

We then get to work Apollo moon mission stylee on building windfarms all around our coast, the seven barrage and maximize our wave power. We retrofit the entire UK housing stock with cavity wall insulation, double galzing, roof insulation as well as fitting solar water heaters on houses - will cost billions i know - but we nationalized everything under a national emergency! We extensively help our farmers (this will stay a private entity) and set targets for 90% home grown food security.

Once we have done this, we will truly have the right to be Called GREAT Britain again, if we dont do this we take a decade long trip to second world economy!

Dunno about the nationalisation of the banks but in one of those strange coincidences that happen, was in conversation with a physics bloke today, one of those strange, almost extinct types. The main subject was primary and secondary cell storage of electricity but soon digressed. He was fairly scathing about most types of renewable energy sources. Solar panels are 1 to 2% efficient and when you balance the total energy to make, it takes between 15 to 20 years to recuperate the investment. Unfortunately the current crop of solar panels have a working life of 15 to 20 years - result zero gain and more than likely a potential loss. Wind power was slightly more efficient and wave power again only slightly better. The environmental damage , in his opinion, from wave farms would in his opinion be catastrophic. Imagine if suddenly the waves stopped washing the beaches, all that lovely nutrient that gets washed into the see disappears, all the itty bitty fishes that fed on the nutrients die etc, etc.....

Some other interesting points were the average coal fired power station generates more radioactive waste than a nuclear, due to the crap in coal. He was fairly scathing about pseudo scientists who specialise in most areas ending in "ology." pointing out that much of the UK data for temperature change comes from the meteorological station based at Northolt. Hmm what could have happened in the Northolt area that would have made the temperature rise since the station began taking records. Maybe a bloody huge city encroached and someone built a soddin great motorway next to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agree entirely and you are correct in saying this process began back in the 1980's.

No. Some elements of it go back to the 1980s. Others go back much further. The single biggest problem is pensions. Now fundamentally the existence of pensions is a Good Thing. But the expectation that fit and healthy 60-65 year olds retire on a very generous packages, for a period that may be in the same ballpark as their working lives, is crippling us.

It's a levelling of the playing field due to globalisation and an end of the age of decadence which has brought many a civilisation throughout human history either to it's knees or wiped it out all together leaving but a trace of it's existence.

Up to a point, Lord Copper. Yes, other folks getting richer mean we get less of the cake. But globalisation has been with us for centuries, and is also the basis for our prosperity.

Smiffy's also right. This time the UK really does have to get back to basics. Energy, construction, agriculture and infrastructure along with longer term goals achieved by education and rewarding those who really matter (bin men instead of bankers).

Smiffy outlines a manifesto that would get my vote. That doesn't quite mean overrewarding bin men (that way lies the different madness of the 1970s). But it does (or should) mean a far more grass-roots capitalism, where great ideas and hard work rather than sharp suits and ******** become the arbiters of entrepreneurial success.

My only concern is that we just shot our collective bolt by diverting what money/credit is available through the very people that failed us rather than the activities that really matter.

Agreed. But arguably there was no good option. If government is to lend directly to those business that really merit it, they need someone to administer that - i.e. the banks (and if it's government, political pressures will lead them to do a *much worse* job than the banks). It's not a good argument, but once you've broken the market with the Northern Rock bailout, the alternatives are probably equally bad and more obviously hugely risky.

[edit - bloomin' thing blanked out the word ********]

Edited by niq
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What ludicrous notions! We all know that the present crisis is a result of a downswing in the Vicsum Cycle cause by too much dependance on the 'Moose Effect. We've all seen what happens when leversaging and undercrofting by banks and other lending institutions gets out of control. Everything works well when taxes and the price of fish are in balance but two points to the right and it all goes pear shaped - and I have a graph to prove it!

There's no place on this forum for common sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dunno about the nationalisation of the banks but in one of those strange coincidences that happen, was in conversation with a physics bloke today, one of those strange, almost extinct types. The main subject was primary and secondary cell storage of electricity but soon digressed. He was fairly scathing about most types of renewable energy sources. Solar panels are 1 to 2% efficient and when you balance the total energy to make, it takes between 15 to 20 years to recuperate the investment. Unfortunately the current crop of solar panels have a working life of 15 to 20 years - result zero gain and more than likely a potential loss. Wind power was slightly more efficient and wave power again only slightly better. The environmental damage , in his opinion, from wave farms would in his opinion be catastrophic. Imagine if suddenly the waves stopped washing the beaches, all that lovely nutrient that gets washed into the see disappears, all the itty bitty fishes that fed on the nutrients die etc, etc.....

Some other interesting points were the average coal fired power station generates more radioactive waste than a nuclear, due to the crap in coal. He was fairly scathing about pseudo scientists who specialise in most areas ending in "ology." pointing out that much of the UK data for temperature change comes from the meteorological station based at Northolt. Hmm what could have happened in the Northolt area that would have made the temperature rise since the station began taking records. Maybe a bloody huge city encroached and someone built a soddin great motorway next to it.

i was not talking bloody great panels on houses, i agree with you, expensive and dont pay for themselves. I was talking small photvoltic water heaters they are all over the Med and not expensive.

we could individually generate enough hot water during the summer months to offset the use of fossil fuels coal burning at drax (lessen it at least) basically taking some strain off the grid periodically.

As for global warming, i was not going up that path, i was more going up energy security path as regards natural Gas and Peak Oil, there is no getting away from the fact that in 10 years from now we will have a full on oil crisis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i was not talking bloody great panels on houses, i agree with you, expensive and dont pay for themselves. I was talking small photvoltic water heaters they are all over the Med and not expensive.

we could individually generate enough hot water during the summer months to offset the use of fossil fuels coal burning at drax (lessen it at least) basically taking some strain off the grid periodically.

As for global warming, i was not going up that path, i was more going up energy security path as regards natural Gas and Peak Oil, there is no getting away from the fact that in 10 years from now we will have a full on oil crisis.

Ahh, energy security for the country, then Nuclear is the least environmentally damaging, resource positive answer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahh, energy security for the country, then Nuclear is the least environmentally damaging, resource positive answer.

But how do you clean it up 40 years from now in a low energy low impact world. Unless there is some great piece of rock that starts orbiting earth by then full of resources, there will be very little coal left, very little oil or natural Gas, and not much in the way of metals or other materials.

Yep, gonna be fun for our kids to have to dismantle them time bombs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest LongBlackKilt
Imagine if suddenly the waves stopped washing the beaches, all that lovely nutrient that gets washed into the see disappears, all the itty bitty fishes that fed on the nutrients die etc, etc.....

Ah, yes, the tender caress of the Pentland Firth. A fragile flower indeed.

Although I'm most worried about how dark it could get after we harvest all that solar power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i was not talking bloody great panels on houses, i agree with you, expensive and dont pay for themselves. I was talking small photvoltic water heaters they are all over the Med and not expensive.

we could individually generate enough hot water during the summer months to offset the use of fossil fuels coal burning at drax (lessen it at least) basically taking some strain off the grid periodically.

As for global warming, i was not going up that path, i was more going up energy security path as regards natural Gas and Peak Oil, there is no getting away from the fact that in 10 years from now we will have a full on oil crisis.

I dont think they are photovoltiac water heaters, they are solar thermal and they can save a lot of energy heating water. Its because water has a very high thermal capacity 4200 KJ/L/C I think. Well worth it.

Local power generation appears to be key, it reduces transmission losses. Energy efficiency is next, the Japanese are the experts in this field. Working nearer our respective points of productivity is next. Talk about wasting energy commuting to work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.