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The bible bashers just won't go away!!

Now it is being suggested that creationism is once again taught in schools, in order to install a balanced view and let the pupils decide for themselves.

Personally, I don't know what to make of either side.

Despite being born a catholic, I have become an athiest and find the bible's explainations for the origins of life ludricous.

Yet, I find the alternative theories equally ridiculous. Fish > Lizard > monkey > ape > man?!? :lol:

A bloke draws a few birds on the Galapecos Islands and then decides we came from fish?!? Not buying that one either.

So, should creationism be taught at schools? If so why, and how the hell did we get here??

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Ive got the same background as you. Irish parents emigrated to UK and raised as Catholic but took first opportunity to become an atheist. (not meaning to suggest your parents are Irish if they arent)

Theres a lot of scientific evidence that seems to support life developing in via random changes that made an organism more efficient than its neighbours and therefore dominated the gene pool. But Ive always reckoned even the huge time involved - 4 billion some years with regards to the earth but less than a billion as far as forms of life is concerned, wouldnt be time enough for accidental minor variations - think Giraffe and long neck coming from an animal built like a horse but having enough incidences of slightly longer neck than its companions and therefore propogating more successfully - to actually have enough time to eventually lead to us or an elephant or a camel.

One things for sure - its got bu..er all to do with any form of supreme being.

Rick

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Guest anorthosite
The bible bashers just won't go away!!

Now it is being suggested that creationism is once again taught in schools, in order to install a balanced view and let the pupils decide for themselves.

Personally, I don't know what to make of either side.

Despite being born a catholic, I have become an athiest and find the bible's explainations for the origins of life ludricous.

Yet, I find the alternative theories equally ridiculous. Fish > Lizard > monkey > ape > man?!? :lol:

A bloke draws a few birds on the Galapecos Islands and then decides we came from fish?!? Not buying that one either.

So, should creationism be taught at schools? If so why, and how the hell did we get here??

Creationism should not be taught in schools, and especially not as science. Evolution is an observed phenomenon, in biology and many other processes. There are few theories that are as well supported by the evidence as evolution.

You might want to delve a little deeper into the subject than you have here before you dismiss it.

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The bible bashers just won't go away!!

Now it is being suggested that creationism is once again taught in schools, in order to install a balanced view and let the pupils decide for themselves.

Personally, I don't know what to make of either side.

Despite being born a catholic, I have become an athiest and find the bible's explainations for the origins of life ludricous.

Yet, I find the alternative theories equally ridiculous. Fish > Lizard > monkey > ape > man?!? :lol:

A bloke draws a few birds on the Galapecos Islands and then decides we came from fish?!? Not buying that one either.

So, should creationism be taught at schools? If so why, and how the hell did we get here??

I`m not trying to be funny but I don`t beleive you can be born anything of the sort. You could have the misfortune of being born into a family that contains some religious zealots who may then try and indoctrinate you into their own particular flavour of supernatural belief.

For this reason it is important for children to be protected from the dogma of a "religious upbringing" and left to choose ( or not ) to embrace whichever belief system they want when they become adults, or at least reach voting age. For this reason schools should be entirely secular, and should refrain from mentioning religion either positively or negatively.

As for creationism, well you`d have to be a monkey to fall for that one..... :rolleyes:.... get it?

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Guest Skint Academic

Questions are good and should be encouraged when it comes to understanding Darwin's theory of evolution. It's one of these theories that seem implausible at first, then strange, then plausible but still confusing, then downright plain bloody obvious. It just depends how far you plan to question and learn about it.

Remember that intuition is based upon our own personal experience that we gain from interacting with the world. I don't know about you but I haven't personally experienced several billion years of evolution therefore how can I expect the theory to be similar to my day to day experience of the world? On the other hand I have been carrying out experiments with artificial evolution and watching complex intelligent organisms emerge from randomness. If you want to understand evolution it helps to understand how the environment has changed over time. For example it's best not to think of a fish turning into a human, but rather think about how an environment that changes gradually over many generations can allow a sea-borne creature to move to shallower depths and then onto the beach.

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Here's my new bible:

'In the beginning religion, mysticism and superstition ruled the hearts of minds of Man. Millions were killed to please God. The world was dark, terrifying and shitty but some tried to inspire others to acts of goodness to make life more comfortable for the world's inhabitants.

As Man grew science replaced the religions. Billions were killed according to the new technological rationality. The world was dark, terrifying and shitty but some tried to inspire others to acts of goodness to make life more comfortable for the world's inhabitants.

Appalled by the inhumanity of science Man demanded we returned to the old ways. Some did and tried to make sure their voices could be heard, but others did not want to go back to the old ways. Many more were killed, well, just because. The world was dark, terrifying and shitty but some tried to inspire others to acts of goodness to make life more comfortable for the world's inhabitants.'

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The theory of evolution is exactly that - a theory. And there are some holes in it.

<nerd>

Nomenclature alert: A theory is a proven hypothesis; Therefore to say that something is only a theory, is nonsense as there is no level of acceptance higher than a theory, (until disproved)

</nerd>

Taxi for Mangle

EDIT: to answer the question. 100% evolution. The Biblical version of creation is pure c0ck.

I would believe ET seeding of Earth before the Biblical 7 days version.

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I`m not trying to be funny but I don`t beleive you can be born anything of the sort. You could have the misfortune of being born into a family that contains some religious zealots who may then try and indoctrinate you into their own particular flavour of supernatural belief.

For this reason it is important for children to be protected from the dogma of a "religious upbringing" and left to choose ( or not ) to embrace whichever belief system they want when they become adults, or at least reach voting age. For this reason schools should be entirely secular, and should refrain from mentioning religion either positively or negatively.

As for creationism, well you`d have to be a monkey to fall for that one..... :rolleyes:.... get it?

Funnily enough I'd agree with you on that.

Even when we are small toddlers,we are taught to "pigeon hole" stuff.

remember the little plastic bricks of different shapes you used to put through the different holes?

the little yellow triangle brick DOES fit through the same hole as the blue square brick,but your parents would always "correct" you and programme you to shove it in the triangle hole.

same is true of all these different brands of organised religion.

They can't all be right can they,in fact most of them are the biggest bunch of snake oil salesmen in the world.

That's why I like to take a more spiritual/esoteric view of scripture.

Most of them say exactly the same thing,but with a few bits of spin added to keep us fighting each other.Divide and conquer all over again!!

Do I believe in god,yes I do.The mathematics behind pretty much everything is too smart to be random.It has to be by design....and if it's design,there is an intelligence behind it.

Do I agree with indoctrination...NO.Kids should be free to explore and make their own choice.

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Guest Skint Academic
Oh jesus Christ god bloddy hell, you lot are asking for trouble now cos scarlets79 will be watching this patch of sky with her SETI (Search for Extra-Theological Iconoclasm) program :unsure:

Ironically, Scarlets could well have been some artificially designed 'intelligence' ...

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Guest anorthosite
Who cares?

If people want to believe in something so long as they dont strap bombs to themselves or expect jobs writing science books i really dont see what all the fuss is about.

Trouble is, some of them want to dictate what's in the science books that are used in schools.

Fortunately the christians don't seem to have the same determination and conviction that a tiny minority of muslims have and aren't likely to go bomb straping anytime soon ;)

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I'm an atheist, and fervently hope that the idiots who appear to be in charge of education don't foist creationism on school kids in science classes. It's not as if the creationists are even handed about who's creation myths are to be taught in science classes - why not aztec or norse myths? They are just as scientifically invalid as the late iron age middle eastern versions (that's the torah/bible/koran takes on creation for the naive). Keep creation myths for religious education classes.

The evidence for evolutions is massive - that for creationism is absent.

Humanity is entering a very difficult century, and we need our wits about us - the last thing we need is people like Palin (creationist fundamentalist) in the white house, or Amerdinnerjacket ('wipe israel off the map etc' anti semite) getting his mits on nukes. Blair kept quiet about his medieval world view until after he was beyond the reach of the electorate - what a slippery character eh! :(

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I'm an atheist, and fervently hope that the idiots who appear to be in charge of education don't foist creationism on school kids in science classes. It's not as if the creationists are even handed about who's creation myths are to be taught in science classes - why not aztec or norse myths? They are just as scientifically invalid as the late iron age middle eastern versions (that's the torah/bible/koran takes on creation for the naive). Keep creation myths for religious education classes.

The evidence for evolutions is massive - that for creationism is absent.

Humanity is entering a very difficult century, and we need our wits about us - the last thing we need is people like Palin (creationist fundamentalist) in the white house, or Amerdinnerjacket ('wipe israel off the map etc' anti semite) getting his mits on nukes. Blair kept quiet about his medieval world view until after he was beyond the reach of the electorate - what a slippery character eh! :(

The last thing we need is countries being created based on religion.

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I am a radical atheist.

Religion has and will continue to kill millions and make lives insufferable around the world. Creationism is rubbish, young earth theory is retarded. Religion was used to manipulate and control since inception look at the Mayans, Olmecs etc.

Intelligent design and creationism are diseases and atheism is the cure. There is no afterlife we have this one life, and we should all try to do no harm to one another or the planet before we die, that way our memories may live on.

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Guest AuntJess
The theory of evolution is exactly that - a theory. And there are some holes in it.

Creationism is absolute tosh to anyone who looks for evidence as opposed to starting with faith and trying to fit the facts to suit.

The whole debate is a great example of the simplified, dualistic thinking that most of us fall prey to. Evolution has some holes, so the 2000 year-old word of God MUST be true - wrong. Biblical explanations are rubbish, so Darwinism MUST be right - rubbish.

Picking holes in Darwinism is absolutely a valid thing to do, but let's try and find a better answer rather than using it as a smoke-screen to re-introduce the ridiculous, out-dated platitudes of religion and myth.

As to why this is all rearing it's head now? Don't know. Maybe the world's too complex - much more reassuring to fall back on religion or 'accepted science' rather than trying to figure out what's really going on...

Religion was once seen as THE answer to everything: Then science came along and we thought that THAT had the enswer to everything.

It is good that we challenge these two: this way maybe we will arrive at the third - and best - explanation for "the meaning of life." B)

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Religion was once seen as THE answer to everything: Then science came along and we thought that THAT had the enswer to everything.

It is good that we challenge these two: this way maybe we will arrive at the third - and best - explanation for "the meaning of life." B)

Indeed. In medicine, Galen was the rule, until Harvey came along and disproved him, 100s years of 'fact' thrown out of the window.

Creationism is a non starter, but intelligent design can't be completely rulled out. Maybe we did evolve to complex primates, then someone/thing came along and gave us a sling shot upwards.

Evolution depends on theory of random precision. Yet Conways Game Of Life both proved and disproved this.

Too many variables are needed to dismiss life as chance. There's also the big bang, yet like dark matter, scientists can't exlplain it. Just another theory on top of a theory. Plus the vital missing link has still to be discovered.

Evolution works for animals, and to a point human's too, yet doesn't completely explain were we or this world came from.

As for natural selection, a qucik glance of the office floor is enough to debunk that one.

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Guest Skint Academic
Religion was once seen as THE answer to everything: Then science came along and we thought that THAT had the enswer to everything.

It is good that we challenge these two: this way maybe we will arrive at the third - and best - explanation for "the meaning of life." B)

Except that Science only works if it is challenged. It is a fundamental part of the scientific method. Whereas religious belief only changes out of necessity.

To put it into film terms ...

You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

Obi%20Wan%20Kenobi%2001%20Large.JPG

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Guest anorthosite
Religion was once seen as THE answer to everything: Then science came along and we thought that THAT had the enswer to everything.

It is good that we challenge these two: this way maybe we will arrive at the third - and best - explanation for "the meaning of life." B)

Why do people always see science as an alternative to religion? Science is a process of understanding and learning and a tool to allow us to use that knowledge, not a lifestyle choice.

Science desn't claim to answer everything, as any scientist knows any answer usually brings up ten questions.

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Guest anorthosite
The PROCESS of scientific discovery is what leads us to greater knowledge. The problem is when current scientific understanding becomes dogma - that's where I and others see it as the opposite of religion.

But there are always young scientists keen to make a career by disproving current dogma - history's full of them. Religion on the other hand is built on conformity to ancient texts.

The specific details of Darwinism have gone relatively unchallenged for too long - IMO. Principle is good, but mixed up with too many unchallenged assumptions and simplifications. What we need to do is start to ask the questions and turn it on it's head.

The specific details of Darwinism and evolution have papers published on them every day. Evolution is still being researched and studied, and many aspects of it remain to be studied.

Evolution is an observed phenomenon - like watching a hammer fall when you let it go. You might have to do further research as to why the hammer falls, how fast, how different hammers fall in different weather conditions, but the phenomenon is unmistakeable. Like all theories, it undergoes constant revision.

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Partly, you've hit the nail on the head and partly, you've missed the point.

The PROCESS of scientific discovery is what leads us to greater knowledge. The problem is when current scientific understanding becomes dogma - that's where I and others see it as the opposite of religion.

The specific details of Darwinism have gone relatively unchallenged for too long - IMO. Principle is good, but mixed up with too many unchallenged assumptions and simplifications. What we need to do is start to ask the questions and turn it on it's head.

BTW creationism isn't the answer. That's the problem - we always see black or white, Darwinism or Creationism - what we need to consider is "Other", or "What else".

100% agree. Bible bashers have given way to Dawkins bashers!!

"We come from apes, FACT"

Er no it isn't, as the lack of direct evidence suggests.

"Natural Selection is FACT"

Nope. When animals can't attract a suitable mate, they die without passing on their genes.

Humans, to be blunt, make do with what they can get.

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Guest anorthosite
Nope. When animals can't attract a suitable mate, they die without passing on their genes.

Humans, to be blunt, make do with what they can get.

Yes, and if its not good enough they die. It called survival of the fittest.

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