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Simple Fractional Reserve/loan Default Question


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You are unable to realise that the numbers on the screen are meaningless unless they are genuinely traceable back to the original deposit.

But you have already decided there was no original deposit so keep concluding they are meaningless.

I think i have exausted this conversation from my point of view. Either way i feel exhausted from this as neither of are going to change our minds. All this is happening for me is that i am putting more and more information together to support my own beliefs.

Some of your ideas did throw me but i then realised they were unworkable in practice.

Money works for me even it does not work for you.

All i am doing here is waiting and attempting to predict possibilities based on what i am learning so i am better able to proceed when the time feels right.

I admit i have learnt some useful things here from you and others in this conversation.

So i am greatful for that.

And i am sorry if i have created offence where none was really intended. I cant understand you and that causes me a frustration that i dont really understand and find hard to control.

JustYield was able to be calm and exit once he reached the point that to me created painful frustration.

Obviously i have no power to influence here and that seems the reality i am going to accept.

Regards to you and goodluck

Thanks

No worries. As intractable as I appear, I do swiftly change my mind in the face of evidence contrary to my existing views. Maybe some other time, then.

Good luck to you as well.

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No worries. As intractable as I appear, I do swiftly change my mind in the face of evidence contrary to my existing views. Maybe some other time, then.

Good luck to you as well.

Maybe i need to be phased out! I was up until 0430 yesterday and now i cant sleep.

your note trades at zero

the zimbabwe note does not.

I think you need to consider how that is possible.

You say there is no difference between the notes. But others say there is a difference between the notes.

Also the numbers on the screen are not money. You cannot buy things with numbers on a screen.

The numbers on the bank screen represent something derived from accountancy which is related to trade between people of say zimbabwe dollars for Egyptian pounds associated with buying papyrus say.

You though have a beginning idea that money is created from thin air by the commercial bank and just typed in.

As i pointed out before there is a vast army of accountants saying this is not true.

And you do say that you do believe accountants exist.

But you want to insist that the numbers on the screen have the same meanings.

The tiny detail is a left brain feature if you like. The left brain attempts to construct the world from details.

The meaning or bigger picture or relationship is a right brain quality.

Money is not just the note. It is also what it means.

It seems to me that you want to construct too much meaning from a detail.

That is a modern scientific type method that has been shown to be inadequate to describe things as they exist where many of the details are yet undiscovered.

For example in western medicine the illness is examined. But in eastern medicine the whole persons life history and whole way of being in the world is examined.

In electronics and in design engineering, detail and purpose or meaning are fused in a way that many overly analytical people cannot understand. These subjects are *arts* based in science.

Medicine used to be practiced as an *art* but in the west has become an analytical illness based method. It is no longer the art of wellness but rather the observation and treatment of illness as detail orientated symptoms divorced from the whole person.

The detail of money is that it is a useless piece of paper.

Similarly the detail of my property deed was that it was a useless piece of paper.

But once you see the detail in its correct relationship to the rest of everything that exists then the different notes have different meaning.

Einstein was not the perfect scientist but he was able to be very right brained and bring a creative insight and intuition (leaping to conclusions based on incomplete information) that enabled him to consider bigger picture concepts well while also being able to concern himself for the details.

The numbers on your screen are not money. The numbers on the bank screen are not money.

Money is what is behind those numbers and why those numbers mean something to people.

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Maybe i need to be phased out! I was up until 0430 yesterday and now i cant sleep.

your note trades at zero

the zimbabwe note does not.

I think you need to consider how that is possible.

You say there is no difference between the notes. But others say there is a difference between the notes.

It's because of belief, it is not because there is anything special about the notes. Force of habit makes the worthless worth something. Sooner or later reality will reassert itself and paper will be seen as what it is, paper.

Also the numbers on the screen are not money. You cannot buy things with numbers on a screen.

The numbers on the bank screen represent something derived from accountancy which is related to trade between people of say zimbabwe dollars for Egyptian pounds associated with buying papyrus say.

I can also do accountancy on my PC screen, accountancy doesn't make PC screen numbers valuable, belief does. I'm not saying that it doesn't work, I am saying that there is no rational basis for doing so. I am not saying that people don't treat them as different, I am saying that there is no rational, empirical or evidential bsis for doing so.

It's branding - the idea that identical trainers with a Nike stripe are worth 500% more than trainers exactly the same minus the stripe.

You though have a beginning idea that money is created from thin air by the commercial bank and just typed in.

As i pointed out before there is a vast army of accountants saying this is not true.

And you do say that you do believe accountants exist.

No, the accountants agree with me, it's just that the government says it's legal when a bank does it. (And illegal when anyone else does it.)

But you want to insist that the numbers on the screen have the same meanings.

The tiny detail is a left brain feature if you like. The left brain attempts to construct the world from details.

The meaning or bigger picture or relationship is a right brain quality.

Money is not just the note. It is also what it means.

It doesn't mean anything. What there is is a system that works which the brain has to find excuses for. It's hynotism and people who have done silly things when hypnotised will come up with all sorts of explanations, plausible, rational sounding explanations to justify the irrational things they have done while in a trance.

It seems to me that you want to construct too much meaning from a detail.

Exactly the reverse.

That is a modern scientific type method that has been shown to be inadequate to describe things as they exist where many of the details are yet undiscovered.

For example in western medicine the illness is examined. But in eastern medicine the whole persons life history and whole way of being in the world is examined.

In electronics and in design engineering, detail and purpose or meaning are fused in a way that many overly analytical people cannot understand. These subjects are *arts* based in science.

Medicine used to be practiced as an *art* but in the west has become an analytical illness based method. It is no longer the art of wellness but rather the observation and treatment of illness as detail orientated symptoms divorced from the whole person.

The detail of money is that it is a useless piece of paper.

Similarly the detail of my property deed was that it was a useless piece of paper.

But once you see the detail in its correct relationship to the rest of everything that exists then the different notes have different meaning.

See what I mean about plausible nonsense to justify something basically irrational?

Einstein was not the perfect scientist but he was able to be very right brained and bring a creative insight and intuition (leaping to conclusions based on incomplete information) that enabled him to consider bigger picture concepts well while also being able to concern himself for the details.

The numbers on your screen are not money. The numbers on the bank screen are not money.

Money is what is behind those numbers and why those numbers mean something to people.

But there isn't any money behind the banks numbers. There are £40-50 billion in notes and coins (and these are worthless in and of themselves anyway) the banks have millions of billions or trillions in deposits, all just unbacked PC screen money.

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It's because of belief, it is not because there is anything special about the notes. Force of habit makes the worthless worth something. Sooner or later reality will reassert itself and paper will be seen as what it is, paper.

I can also do accountancy on my PC screen, accountancy doesn't make PC screen numbers valuable, belief does. I'm not saying that it doesn't work, I am saying that there is no rational basis for doing so. I am not saying that people don't treat them as different, I am saying that there is no rational, empirical or evidential bsis for doing so.

It's branding - the idea that identical trainers with a Nike stripe are worth 500% more than trainers exactly the same minus the stripe.

No, the accountants agree with me, it's just that the government says it's legal when a bank does it. (And illegal when anyone else does it.)

It doesn't mean anything. What there is is a system that works which the brain has to find excuses for. It's hynotism and people who have done silly things when hypnotised will come up with all sorts of explanations, plausible, rational sounding explanations to justify the irrational things they have done while in a trance.

Exactly the reverse.

See what I mean about plausible nonsense to justify something basically irrational?

But there isn't any money behind the banks numbers. There are £40-50 billion in notes and coins (and these are worthless in and of themselves anyway) the banks have millions of billions or trillions in deposits, all just unbacked PC screen money.

you have this entirely wrong but i know i cannot change your mind.

You are too analytical logical and you believe that is all you need to understand the world

The right brain is not rational and yet it has an intelligence the left brain cannot understand.

Somewhat predictability your overly rational mind then decides this is mumbo jumbo.

Your logical mind sees paper of no instrinsic value and concludes the note has no value

But it valueable just as a property deed is valueable of a share certificate is valueable.

But you cannot understand this.

Your beginning idea is that all money is created from thin air

So you can never understand the real world.

You behave and live as if what you think is true.

It is a blindness

Just how many minus diopters of nearsightedness do you actually have??

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you have this entirely wrong but i know i cannot change your mind.

You are too analytical logical and you believe that is all you need to understand the world

Reality is, it is superior to ideas. When ideas and reality conflict, ideas fall, we do not say reality is wrong.

The right brain is not rational and yet it has an intelligence the left brain cannot understand.

Somewhat predictability your overly rational mind then decides this is mumbo jumbo.

I'm a trainedand licenced hypnotist amongst other things, it is mumbo jumbo. You are in a trance.

Your logical mind sees paper of no instrinsic value and concludes the note has no value

But it valueable just as a property deed is valueable of a share certificate is valueable.

But you cannot understand this.

There is nothing to understand. It's a belief, a trance, a waking sleep. It's shared by many but a large collection of people with a wrong idea doesn't make that idea correct, it just makes a lot of people wrong.

I know how it works and I have even used it from time to time but it IS all nonsense.

Your beginning idea is that all money is created from thin air

So you can never understand the real world.

You behave and live as if what you think is true.

It is a blindness

Just how many minus diopters of nearsightedness do you actually have??

None. You are not talking about the real world, you are talking about a delusion which you mistake for reality.

The fact that I am not joining in must disturb you, but I am correct.

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the banks have millions of billions or trillions in deposits, all just unbacked PC screen money.

But your beginning argument is that the bank has an assett of your promise "to work" to repay the bank.

So by your own belief the billions are backed by peoples labour surely?

I know for sure that when i get my money out then people **work for me**.

If i buy a car by transmitting my deposited money to a car manufacturer, i am paying for the labour that created the car.

If i sell the car the accumulated labour goes back to my account.

I can work for 5 years to build a house or i can sent some digits to a persons account and avoid all the labour myself.

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But your beginning argument is that the bank has an assett of your promise "to work" to repay the bank.

No, it wasn't. My basic premise is that banks have a completely unbacked promise.

So by your own belief the billions are backed by peoples labour surely?

I know for sure that when i get my money out then people **work for me**.

They don't have to. Fiat paper works because of forced labour, digits on a screen aren't backed by even that.

If i buy a car by transmitting my deposited money to a car manufacturer, i am paying for the labour that created the car.

If I sell the car the accumulated labour goes back to my account.

I can work for 5 years to build a house or i can sent some digits to a persons account and avoid all the labour myself.

Which doesn't change the digits in any way shape or form.

You just think they are different and are being delusional. The fact that you can find someone else who is also delusional to trade with is fine by me, but it doean't make any of your fantasies real.

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No, it wasn't. My basic premise is that banks have a completely unbacked promise.

They don't have to. Fiat paper works because of forced labour, digits on a screen aren't backed by even that.

Which doesn't change the digits in any way shape or form.

You just think they are different and are being delusional. The fact that you can find someone else who is also delusional to trade with is fine by me, but it doean't make any of your fantasies real.

Good luck.

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  • 5 months later...
I did ask something similar a while back, but I really want to understand the following simple scenario properly.

Today again I have read something, somewhere (on a forum) stating bank lends x, loan defaults, bank cannot lend x * 10 in the future. I just want to know if this is true.

so:

1. Bank has $1 magic reserve money.

2. Bank loans $10 (=$1 + 9 x $1) - ie bank uses $1 of reserves to loan a total of $10

3. Borrower defaults completely on loan repayment.

the upshot:

The bank has lost $1 of its original reserves, and the $9 it created.

Has this reduced the banks future lending capacity by $10 or $100?

thanks.

watch or Google money as debt, but it sounds like you already have

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