thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 These are some good You Tube Vids which will give you a taste of how it works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8...feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgkYjFYr2QI...feature=related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Yes but i cannot withdraw one pound until he has one pound deposited or he will have a negative reserve No, his books are balanced because you gave him £10,000 He can only do the loan on paper if he deposits the loan into my account. But no withdrawal is possible until he has deposits. Withdrawl of what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 No, his books are balanced because you gave him £10,000Withdrawl of what? Injin the 10,000 is in my account as a liability of his. And the loan is in his loan book as an assett. But as soon as i try to access the money that is marked as my account and his liability he now has a negative reserve. Not sure what you mean by 'withdrawal of what?' The purpose of a loan is that i get money. So far in your example i cannot get any money and only have a record of a debt and a credit and i am paying interest to the banker. So why would i do that? I want my money! or rather the money he agreed to lend to me so far he cannot do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Injin the 10,000 is in my account as a liability of his. And the loan is in his loan book as an assett. Nope. he books your loan as an asset and when you repay him it's an asset. When he gives it to you, then his books are balanced and there is no asset or liability. But as soon as i try to access the money that is marked as my account and his liability he now has a negative reserve. You put the money there, when you withdraw it, his books are balanced. This is a loan we are talking about, remember? Not sure what you mean by 'withdrawal of what?'The purpose of a loan is that i get money. So far in your example i cannot get any money and only have a record of a debt and a credit and i am paying interest to the banker. So why would i do that? because you don't know what's going on. Which is why all banking is fraud. I want my money! or rather the money he agreed to lend to me so far he cannot do that. Money? What's that? You mean another empty promissory note? Turtles..all th way down. A promise is a promise is a promise..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 These are some good You Tube Vids which will give you a taste of how it works:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8...feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgkYjFYr2QI...feature=related Final bear if you follow the debt is money video carefully you will note the 10,000 for the car loan is only possible once depositors money has been received. It is there in the video shortly *after* you see the guy get his loan via apparently the magic of 10 times lending. But in fact the high power * 10 works simultaneously with the reserve fraction of depositors money. Ordinary banks dont create money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Nope. he books your loan as an asset and when you repay him it's an asset. When he gives it to you, then his books are balanced and there is no asset or liability.You put the money there, when you withdraw it, his books are balanced. This is a loan we are talking about, remember? because you don't know what's going on. Which is why all banking is fraud. Money? What's that? You mean another empty promissory note? Turtles..all th way down. A promise is a promise is a promise..... Injin I need to have the loan in my hands or in another bank!! Your example creates a loan which i cannot draw down! Come on man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 InjinI need to have the loan in my hands or in another bank!! Your example creates a loan which i cannot draw down! Come on man! No, it doesn't. The action of signing the form creates the money which is given. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 The action of signing the form creates the money which is given. Exactly..........now ponder..... What happens if they lose the form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Exactly..........now ponder.....What happens if they lose the form? http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/02/som...-unable-to.html They can't do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Its sweet........I've been following these stories for a while. Some of the comments form the article are priceless... `If you're going to take my house away from me, you better own the note,'' said Lents, 63, the former chief executive officer of a now-defunct voice recognition software company. I think it's going to become pretty hairy,'' said Josh Rosner, managing director at the New York-based investment research firm Graham Fisher & Co. ``Regulators appear to have ignored this, given the size and scope of the problem.'' ``Loans were mass produced and short cuts were taken,'' White said. ``A lot of the paperwork is done in the name of the original lender and a lot of the original lenders aren't around anymore.'' ``They raise the issue of whether the trusts own the loans at all,'' Charney said. ``Lost-note affidavits are pattern and practice in the industry. They are not exceptions. They are the rule.'' Lents's attorney, Jane Raskin of Raskin & Raskin in Miami, said she has no idea who owns Lents's mortgage note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 No, it doesn't. The action of signing the form creates the money which is given. In a no reserve system the depositors money has to be kept separate from lending. Agreed? in a .1 system then 90% of depositors money can be used for lending. Agreed? In a Zero reserve system 100% of ***************depositors money************** can be used for lending. Agreed? Your bank now has 10000 of depositors money to support 10000 of lending at the zero reserve requirement. While your loan book has 10,000 your deposit book has to have 10,000. I cannot access this loan you created at your bank with no money. If i take out 1 pound you are now in violation of the zero reserve requirement and have to ask for the dollar back or reduce the lending and allow me a free pound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 In a no reserve system the depositors money has to be kept separate from lending. Agreed? No. Nothing is loaned, it's 100% con. in a .1 system then 90% of depositors money can be used for lending. Agreed? Nope. In a Zero reserve system 100% of ***************depositors money************** can be used for lending. Agreed? Nope, you don't need any deposits to make a loan. Your bank now has 10000 of depositors money to support 10000 of lending at the zero reserve requirement. Nope, the bank has zero deposits and can lend as much as it fancies. While your loan book has 10,000 your deposit book has to have 10,000.I cannot access this loan you created at your bank with no money. If i take out 1 pound you are now in violation of the zero reserve requirement and have to ask for the dollar back or reduce the lending and allow me a free pound! If you take out £1 an order is issued to the printers, who will give you a portable promissory note to carry around with you as evidence that you have made a promise. A promise for what? Nothing. Nada. Nix,. ****** all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 No. Nothing is loaned, it's 100% con. Nope. Nope, you don't need any deposits to make a loan. Nope, the bank has zero deposits and can lend as much as it fancies. If you take out £1 an order is issued to the printers, who will give you a portable promissory note to carry around with you as evidence that you have made a promise. A promise for what? Nothing. Nada. Nix,. ****** all. Are you actually totally mad or just pretending to be? The bank has no ******ing money. how do i take out one pound?? I want one ******ing pound. I dont want to wait while they print their own money. Ordinary banks do not print money anyway. Please enlighten me how i get my one ******ing pound from your ******ing bank with no money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I know its hard to understand aliveandkicking. Take solace that even J K Galbraith had trouble understanding it too: The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled.John Kenneth Galbraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Are you actually totally mad or just pretending to be?The bank has no ******ing money. how do i take out one pound?? The bank takes your promissory note and turns it into other promissory notes that are more generally accepted through the miracle of the printing press and human gullibility. I want one ******ing pound. I dont want to wait while they print their own money. Ordinary banks do not print money anyway.Please enlighten me how i get my one ******ing pound from your ******ing bank with no money! You request it, I say "large withdrawls take time, Sir." Then I book you an appointment for tomorrow and ring the printers. How else do you think it was done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) I know its hard to understand aliveandkicking. Take solace that even J K Galbraith had trouble understanding it too: Final bear It is you who does not understand. Galbraith was clear that no man can create wealth from nothing. Ordinary banks do not create money. Message with bloo loo please and sort that out You need to understand that even in a zero fractional reserve it only means that *all* depositors money can be lent out. Edited August 31, 2008 by aliveandkicking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think you might be confusing fiat paper money with wealth aliveandkicking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I think you might be confusing fiat paper money with wealth aliveandkicking You are confused. Fiat money creates a claim on the wealth of the country it is produced by. If there is no valid claim the note is of no value. The value of fiat is proportional to the amount of claims available be it in banks or as paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 The value of fiat is proportional to the amount of claims available be it in banks or as paper. I won't argue with that. Now lets define wealth: from Wiki: Wealth derives from the old English word "weal", which means "well-being". The term was originally an adjective to describe the possession of great qualities I would not describe any fiat currencies as having these qualities. The problem is that the amount of claims in banks or on paper keep increasing at a seemingly expodential rate. Making the paper worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 You are confused.Fiat money creates a claim on the wealth of the country it is produced by. No, it doesn't. it's an empty promise and a claim to something that doesn't exist. The fact that you think you are in a "country" is just another con. If there is no valid claim the note is of no value.The value of fiat is proportional to the amount of claims available be it in banks or as paper. This has nothing to do with how fiat is produced or banking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 The fact that you think you are in a "country" is just another con. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I won't argue with that. Now lets define wealth: from Wiki: I would not describe any fiat currencies as having these qualities. The problem is that the amount of claims in banks or on paper keep increasing at a seemingly expodential rate. Making the paper worthless. You have to differentiate between worthless and less valuable. One pound is almost worthless. 5 i assume will buy a pint of beer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Try this for an experiment. Take a box. Stuff it with all the currencies of the world and an equal value in todays money in lead. Wait 100 years and open the box. The lead will still be worth its weight in lead. The 'paper wealth' you put in will be toilet paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliveandkicking Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Try this for an experiment. Take a box. Stuff it with all the currencies of the world and an equal value in todays money in lead. Wait 100 years and open the box. The lead will still be worth its weight in lead. The 'paper wealth' you put in will be toilet paper. I am not sure what your point is. I am not denying inflation is very high. You are making an argument that high house prices is not so abnormal given the inflation. As to banking. Banks cannot lend money they do not have. Please take a while to think about the difference between a system where there is no fractional reserve ie full reserve i supppose? and a system with less reserve and a system with .01 reserve and Zero reserve? you still need money from depositors. Think it thru on paper please. Do you actually think a bank with no money can lend me a one pound note?? what about 50P! The entries in the books are irrelevant if no money can be lent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefinalbear Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I am not sure what your point is. I am not denying inflation is very high. My point is that the value of all currencies revert to zero in the end. So I wouldn't call them wealth. Thats all. You are making an argument that high house prices is not so abnormal given the inflation. No I'm not. House prices are basically a function of what the banks are willing to lend. As to banks..........do we still have £1 notes?? Are you Scottish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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