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No Muggy Bear

Buying Brittanias

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I have been looking at buying some gold coins, I do not like ebay, would like to buy them quickly and easily. Have any of you bought from http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/ ?

Can you mention any other alternatives?

Very much appreciated cos I am a bit green and don't want to get ripped off obviously!

Cheers

NMB

:rolleyes:

Hi

I've used CoinInvestDirect and found them very good and the prices very competitive. Failing that, I use a local coin deal - try looking one up in teh Yellow pages?

Regards,

crude.

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Britannia's are for collectors they charge way too much above spot for them, limited edition proof coins. Nice and shiny but not bullion. Stick with sovs if you want British gold coins.

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I have been looking at buying some gold coins, I do not like ebay, would like to buy them quickly and easily. Have any of you bought from http://www.taxfreegold.co.uk/ ?

Can you mention any other alternatives?

Very much appreciated cos I am a bit green and don't want to get ripped off obviously!

Cheers

NMB

:rolleyes:

Hi Muggy bear

Yes, I've bought sovs from them (Chard) and found the process hassle-free. Their buy-sell spread was a bit better (tighter) than ATS bullion who are the other big dealer that I checked with at the time.

good luck

um

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Britannia's are for collectors they charge way too much above spot for them, limited edition proof coins. Nice and shiny but not bullion. Stick with sovs if you want British gold coins.

BRITANNIA'S HAVE A FACE VALUE OF £100 PLUS THE GOLD CONTENT.

SOVS ARE FOR COLLECTORS .

I AM BULLION BOY :ph34r:

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Sovs have a face value of £1 and half of 10 shillings. They don't have it printed on them ofc. But then it is a coin with hundreds of years of history to be like that.

You could spend Britannia's for £100, I will give you £100 for as many as you want to sell me. I doubt Sainsbury's would know they are legal tender. For most purposes they are considered to be worth their gold content. People have tried to pay wages in them and argue face value for lower tax, but the rulings were they were worth the gold content. Nobody is going to give you £100 + gold content. Browse the net to see what dealers buy them for.

I see you going on about 1oz gold bars in the other thread and calling sovs trash. But why? sovs are gold too and apart form the numismatic ancient ones are valued according to gold content. They are much more recognizable and easy to test than a bar. I don't care much for pretty coins, 1oz gold bars attract CGT, sovs do not.

p.s DON'T SHOUT

Edited by thod

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Sovs have a face value of £1 and half of 10 shillings. They don't have it printed on them ofc. But then it is a coin with hundreds of years of history to be like that.

You could spend Britannia's for £100, I will give you £100 for as many as you want to sell me. I doubt Sainsbury's would know they are legal tender. For most purposes they are considered to be worth their gold content. People have tried to pay wages in them and argue face value for lower tax, but the rulings were they were worth the gold content. Nobody is going to give you £100 + gold content. Browse the net to see what dealers buy them for.

I see you going on about 1oz gold bars in the other thread and calling sovs trash. But why? sovs are gold too and apart form the numismatic ancient ones are valued according to gold content. They are much more recognizable and easy to test than a bar. I don't care much for pretty coins, 1oz gold bars attract CGT, sovs do not.

p.s DON'T SHOUT

NO I DID NOT CALL SOVS TRASH MY FRIEND, ALL I SAID WAS SOVS ARE COLLECTORS PIECES, AND IN A TIME WHEN GOLD IS MORE SORT AFTER THAN CURRENCY (VERY BAD TIMES) UNLESS YOU HAVE 99.9% BULLION SOVS THEN MY HONEST OPINION IS YOU ARE WAISTING YOUR TIME BUYING THEM AS A INVESTMENT.

PEOPLE DON'T CARE HOW OLD YOUR COIN IS, OR IF IT WAS ONCE OWNED BY THE QUEEN HER SELF, THEY WILL LOOK FOR 'PURE GOLD' AND IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT COMES IN THE WAY OF A BAR OR A BRITANNIA.

BULLION SOV PREMIUMS ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN BRITANNIA'S SO I AM NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOU MEAN HEAR, IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT 22CARRAT GOLD SOVERIGNS, I DON'T REALLY WANT TO GO INTO HOW BAD I THINK THESE ARE, BUT BULLION DEALERS WILL ALWAYS PERSUADE 'FIRST TIME BUYERS' TO INVEST IN THESE, THE GOLD CONTENT IS LOW, THERE ARE MORE FOR COLLECTORS, AND IN BAD TIMES THEY ARE NOT WORTH AS MUCH AS 99.9 % BULLION.

MARK UP ON BARS PTO HAS A PREMIUM OF AROUND 5-7%

BRITANNIAS PTO 8-10%

BULLION SOVS PTO 13-16%

SO LIKE I SAY, GOLD BARS AS AN INVESTMENT, NOT IN SHARES, BUT 'IN YOUR SAFE, IN YOUR HANDS'

FAILING THAT, BRITANNIA'S, BECAUSE THE MARKET CAN SWING ETHER WAY AND IF IT DOES YOU WILL ALWAYS BE LEFT WITH SOMETHING.

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EXAMPLE OF WHAT I AM TRYING TO GET ACROSS

I 'COLLECT MEDALS' , IT'S NOT AN INVESTMENT, AND IF I EVER SELL ANY AND MAKE A PROFIT, THEN I JUST PUT IT DOWN TO A BIT OF LUCK.

I 'COLLECT THEM' BECAUSE IT'S MY HOBBY, AND THERE WORTH TO ME WHAT EVER I THINK THEY ARE WORTH.

I HAVE A 2ND CLASS JAP 'ORDER OF THE RISING SUN', COLLECTORS SAY IT'S WORTH A FORTUNE, I SAY IT'S WORTH 'SO MUCH' AND IF I CAME TO SELL IT TODAY I DOUBT I WOULD GET HALF OF WHAT I PAYED FOR IT?

THING IS I WOULD NOT SELL IT, IT'S MY HOBBY, AND I LIKE IT, BUT ONE THING IS TRUE, THIS WILL NOT FETCH HALF AS MUCH IN TODAYS MARKETS AS IT WOULD HAVE DONE SAY 4 YEARS AGO.

99.9% GOLD BULLION IS ALWAYS WORTH WHAT THE MARKET SAYS IT'S WORTH, IN BAD TIMES IT WILL ONLY BE 'BID UP' NOT 'BID UNDER FOR A BARGAIN PRICE'

WHEN YOU START GOING DOWN THE ROAD OF 'COLLECTABLE COINS' (SOVS) IN BAD TIMES THEY ARE ONLY WORTH WHAT PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO PAY, FORGET DATES AND FANCY ART WORK, FORGET THINKING WITH YOUR HEART AND THINK WITH YOUR WALLET.

I I HAD TO BUYS SOVS, I WOULD BUY BULLION SOVS WITH THE DATES BETWEEN 2007 AND 2008, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THIS COUNTRY TURNED IT'S BACK ON GOLD A FEW YEARS AGO AND THESE COINS COULD BE VERY 'COLLECTABLE' IN THE FUTURE.

I AM BULLION BOY :ph34r:

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Incidentally Britannias are also three 9's gold, being alloyed with silver.

Doesn't 999 mean 99.9% gold? 22 carat gold as used in sovereigns would be 916, or 91.6% gold.

Edit: Of course, a 1oz bullion 22 carat coin contains 1oz gold and an additional 0.0917oz of silver, copper or other metal. So the value is the same.

Edited by lifechooser

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From chard's various websites (all prices are for 'our choice' coins)

Sovereigns;

1 coin = 15% premium

10 coins = 10% premium

25 coins = 8% premium

1/4 oz Britannias;

1 coin = 25% premium

5 coins = 22% premium

10 coins = 18% premium

1 ounce Britannias;

1 coin = 12% premium

10 coins = 10% premium

25 coins = 8% premium

So sovereigns are cheapest, especially when compared with similar weight britannias.

Krugers;

One Ounce

1 coin = 7% premium

5 coins = 6% premium

25 coins = 5.5% premium

Quarter Ounce

1 coin = 25% premium

10 coin = 20% premium

So sovereigns are cheaper than similar sized krugers too, but nothing seems to beat 1oz krugers for value. It all depends on how you will sell them later. It seems to me that many dealers have a set price per gold that they will pay, rather than accounting for numistic value.

Edited by lifechooser

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At risk of talking to myself :blink:

Bullion Boy, can you use lower case letters please? Upper case is really hard to read. If you're not happy using the shift key for the occassional capital letter, then just use lower case, it's easier to read. Capital letters look to similar to each other for text to be readable.

I don't have any sovereigns. I handled one in a shop and didn't like it. I prefered the look and feel of pure gold, so whether I did the right thing or not financially, I kept hold of the little known commerative proof coin that I had. I've never had this problem in choosing a share certificate... However if I find I spend more due to a coins beauty, I'm sure I can find someone who thinks the same when I come to sell.

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At risk of talking to myself :blink:

Bullion Boy, can you use lower case letters please? Upper case is really hard to read. If you're not happy using the shift key for the occassional capital letter, then just use lower case, it's easier to read. Capital letters look to similar to each other for text to be readable.

I don't have any sovereigns. I handled one in a shop and didn't like it. I prefered the look and feel of pure gold, so whether I did the right thing or not financially, I kept hold of the little known commerative proof coin that I had. I've never had this problem in choosing a share certificate... However if I find I spend more due to a coins beauty, I'm sure I can find someone who thinks the same when I come to sell.

Hi Bullion Boy

I think what Lifechooser is trying to say politely and kindly is:

Stop SHOUTING before you drive everybody round the twist.

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From chard's various websites (all prices are for 'our choice' coins)

Sovereigns;

1 coin = 15% premium

10 coins = 10% premium

25 coins = 8% premium

1/4 oz Britannias;

1 coin = 25% premium

5 coins = 22% premium

10 coins = 18% premium

1 ounce Britannias;

1 coin = 12% premium

10 coins = 10% premium

25 coins = 8% premium

So sovereigns are cheapest, especially when compared with similar weight britannias.

Krugers;

One Ounce

1 coin = 7% premium

5 coins = 6% premium

25 coins = 5.5% premium

Quarter Ounce

1 coin = 25% premium

10 coin = 20% premium

So sovereigns are cheaper than similar sized krugers too, but nothing seems to beat 1oz krugers for value. It all depends on how you will sell them later. It seems to me that many dealers have a set price per gold that they will pay, rather than accounting for numistic value.

thx for posting this lc. The only things I would add, to clear up the confusion and misinformation caused by BULLION BOY;

All the gold coins mentioned are 22 carat, i.e. 91.6% gold alloyed with another metal (usually silver or copper). The reason for this is that pure gold is too soft to be useful as coins. The gold content is just as valuable as the gold content in pure gold bars and should fetch a similar price per g or oz of actual gold. The choice of whether to invest in gold bars or coins is largely personal and subjective, there is nothing inherently better about the gold in either form.

Only ever pay any numismatic premium for sovereigns that are either very old (as a rule of thumb at least YH Victorian) AND in excellent condition or are examples of an unusually rare date. Only ever pay numismatic value if you have a very good understanding of the coin market and are proficient at coin grading. Otherwise paying no more than the dealer premiums that lc quotes is paramount. As far as I'm aware britannias and krugerrands have NO numismatic value and are worth the gold content alone (plus a tiny bit for the silver/copper).

um

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thx for posting this lc. The only things I would add, to clear up the confusion and misinformation caused by BULLION BOY;

...

As far as I'm aware britannias and krugerrands have NO numismatic value and are worth the gold content alone (plus a tiny bit for the silver/copper).

um

Since 1980 the South African Mint have been producing limited numbers of proof Krugerrands and the Royal Mint has nearly always produced proof Britannia’s, these are numismatic coins. There are also some years where bullion Krugers and Brits have numismatic value. Stick to the simple rules of bullion investment, if it is bright and shiny then keep away from it as it will have numismatic value, go for the dull ones they are always worth their weight in gold.

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thx for posting this lc. The only things I would add, to clear up the confusion and misinformation caused by BULLION BOY;

All the gold coins mentioned are 22 carat, i.e. 91.6% gold alloyed with another metal (usually silver or copper). The reason for this is that pure gold is too soft to be useful as coins.

um

No is isn't.

Most 1oz gold coins are 24 carat pure gold. One that I have (a maple IIRC) is stamped 9999. I can't think of many coins, other than the ones I mentioned, which are not 24 carat. The US eagle?

24 carat is probably too soft to be used in circulation, but not for investment or collecting. I had an opportunity to get s sovereign at a good price, and I wanted one, until I handled it. I could see the copper tinge, and it put me off. It may be just as valuable, but I personally like my gold pure. YMMV.

Edited by lifechooser

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No is isn't.

Most 1oz gold coins are 24 carat pure gold. One that I have (a maple IIRC) is stamped 9999. I can't think of many coins, other than the ones I mentioned, which are not 24 carat. The US eagle?

Many of the more popular coins are in fact 22 carat - Britannias, Eagles, and Krugerrands. It's Philharmonikers, Maples, and Pandas that are 24 carats. 24 carat means a .999 purity as compared to the .917 typically used in 22 carat. It makes no odds though, as both types of 1 ounce coin contain the same amount of gold - one troy ounce. To 'compensate' for this, the 22 carat is heavier (typically contains a copper alloy base metal). The best way to visualise this is that a 22 carat coin is just a 24 carat one with a bit of extra metal thrown in to give it durability.

The only difference is the one you said - the appearance - with 24 carats gleaming more than some of the alloyed 22 carat coins.

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No is isn't.

Most 1oz gold coins are 24 carat pure gold. One that I have (a maple IIRC) is stamped 9999. I can't think of many coins, other than the ones I mentioned, which are not 24 carat. The US eagle?

24 carat is probably too soft to be used in circulation, but not for investment or collecting. I had an opportunity to get s sovereign at a good price, and I wanted one, until I handled it. I could see the copper tinge, and it put me off. It may be just as valuable, but I personally like my gold pure. YMMV.

lc, what I actually said was 'All the gold coins mentioned are 22 carat'. The ones mentioned were britannias, sovereigns and Krugerrands. And they ARE all 22 carat! I am fully aware that some coin types are 24 carat (the chinese panda is an example as well as the maple you quote), however the US eagle is 22 carat.

In response to id5 who said 'Since 1980 the South African Mint have been producing limited numbers of proof Krugerrands and the Royal Mint has nearly always produced proof Britannia’s, these are numismatic coins. There are also some years where bullion Krugers and Brits have numismatic value.'

If you want a view on just how much numismatic value there is in these modern proof coins then try getting a quote from a dealer (e.g. Chard) as to what they will pay you for them. I think you will find any idea of numismatic value evaporates rather quickly! The problem is that, because they are produced for collectors, they will all be kept in perfect condition and never acquire any increase in scarcity. For these reasons it's unlikely they will appreciate ahead of the gold price. As I said before, pay for the gold and nothing else unless you are a serious coin collector with years of experience under your belt.

um

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...

In response to id5 ...

If you want a view on just how much numismatic value there is in these modern proof coins then try getting a quote from a dealer (e.g. Chard) as to what they will pay you for them. I think you will find any idea of numismatic value evaporates rather quickly! The problem is that, because they are produced for collectors, they will all be kept in perfect condition and never acquire any increase in scarcity. For these reasons it's unlikely they will appreciate ahead of the gold price. As I said before, pay for the gold and nothing else unless you are a serious coin collector with years of experience under your belt.

um

If you have a numismatic coin then you would not sell them to a gold dealer like Chards, Bairds, ATS, etc, you would sell them to numismatic collectors via numismatic auction houses like Spink. Spinks average value for a 1980 Sovereign at auction is £150. Chards is a jewellers, Bairds is a refiner, ATS is a bullion dealer they all make money by buying cheap and selling the item for as much as they can. My point was that there are numismatic versions of what are common bullion coins.

I also agreed with you in my post I said Stick to the simple rules of bullion investment, if it is bright and shiny then keep away from it as it will have numismatic value, go for the dull ones they are always worth their weight in gold.

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...Examples of pure gold bullion coins are Buffalos, Maples, Nuggets, Pandas and Philharmonikers.

For all who are unsure and being pedantic gold coin content is measured fineness, amount of gold measured in parts of 1/1000. This is why you will see 9999 or 999.9 on a pure cold coin, gold jewellery is measured in carat. Below is a list of common bullion coins and their fineness.

Australia Kangaroo 999.9

Austria Philharmonic 999.9

Belgium Francs 900.0

Canada Maple 999.9

Chile Pesos 900.0

China Panda 999.0

France Francs 900.0

Germany Mark 900.0

Great Britain Britannia 916.7

Great Britain Sovereing 916.7

Hungary Korona 900.0

Italy Lira 900.0

Mexico Pesos 900.0

South Africa Krugerrand 916.7

USA Older Eagle 900.0

USA New Eagle 916.7

USA Buffalo 999.9

USSR Rouble 900.0

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If you have a numismatic coin then you would not sell them to a gold dealer like Chards, Bairds, ATS, etc, you would sell them to numismatic collectors via numismatic auction houses like Spink. Spinks average value for a 1980 Sovereign at auction is £150. Chards is a jewellers, Bairds is a refiner, ATS is a bullion dealer they all make money by buying cheap and selling the item for as much as they can. My point was that there are numismatic versions of what are common bullion coins.

I also agreed with you in my post I said Stick to the simple rules of bullion investment, if it is bright and shiny then keep away from it as it will have numismatic value, go for the dull ones they are always worth their weight in gold.

Hi id5

I'm amazed that 1980 sovs go for £150 at Spink auction when you can pick them up for less than £120 from Chards and probably cheaper on ebay with a bit of patience. Are you sure it's not the Spink catalogue price you are quoting - now that I would believe ;)

Otherwise I think we're on the same page wrt bullion vs numismatic and I agree staying clear of the modern shiny stuff is generally a good idea. I've never really understood why collectors like them - power of marketing I guess. For me, collection is about things that have historical interest and scarcity value as well as aesthetic appeal. But each to their own I guess.

cheers

um

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I'm amazed that 1980 sovs go for £150 at Spink auction when you can pick them up for less than £120 from Chards and probably cheaper on ebay with a bit of patience. Are you sure it's not the Spink catalogue price you are quoting - now that I would believe ...

These are average hammer prices, you also need to factor in the sellers fees, buyers fees, etc which means as a seller you might get more on eBay but as a buyer it is different as you get provenance and grading, these are major factors in numismatic coins.

Take a 1980 Proof Sovereign as the example, quite a few have been touched by someone, they cannot resist it. The oil from their fingers is noticeable under a good lens but may not be noticeable by the naked eye, you can try and wipe it off but the reality is that it just smears across the surface. After a few years that oil will have stained the coin and it will be visible to the naked eye. Put the coin next to a proof that has never been touched and you can see the difference. There is no amount of cleaning that will get rid of the oil and not stain or mark the coin, it is now worth bullion value only as there are still quite a few untouched ones out there. Spink price is based on selling you a 1980 Proof Sovereign Fleur de Coin (FDC) untouched, literally perfect. Chards price is based on selling you a 1980 Proof Sovereign which may or may not be FDC but someone will buy it.

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NO I DID NOT CALL SOVS TRASH MY FRIEND, ALL I SAID WAS SOVS ARE COLLECTORS PIECES, AND IN A TIME WHEN GOLD IS MORE SORT AFTER THAN CURRENCY (VERY BAD TIMES) UNLESS YOU HAVE 99.9% BULLION SOVS THEN MY HONEST OPINION IS YOU ARE WAISTING YOUR TIME BUYING THEM AS A INVESTMENT.

PEOPLE DON'T CARE HOW OLD YOUR COIN IS, OR IF IT WAS ONCE OWNED BY THE QUEEN HER SELF, THEY WILL LOOK FOR 'PURE GOLD' AND IT DOES NOT MATTER IF IT COMES IN THE WAY OF A BAR OR A BRITANNIA.

BULLION SOV PREMIUMS ARE MUCH HIGHER THAN BRITANNIA'S SO I AM NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOU MEAN HEAR, IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT 22CARRAT GOLD SOVERIGNS, I DON'T REALLY WANT TO GO INTO HOW BAD I THINK THESE ARE, BUT BULLION DEALERS WILL ALWAYS PERSUADE 'FIRST TIME BUYERS' TO INVEST IN THESE, THE GOLD CONTENT IS LOW, THERE ARE MORE FOR COLLECTORS, AND IN BAD TIMES THEY ARE NOT WORTH AS MUCH AS 99.9 % BULLION.

MARK UP ON BARS PTO HAS A PREMIUM OF AROUND 5-7%

BRITANNIAS PTO 8-10%

BULLION SOVS PTO 13-16%

SO LIKE I SAY, GOLD BARS AS AN INVESTMENT, NOT IN SHARES, BUT 'IN YOUR SAFE, IN YOUR HANDS'

FAILING THAT, BRITANNIA'S, BECAUSE THE MARKET CAN SWING ETHER WAY AND IF IT DOES YOU WILL ALWAYS BE LEFT WITH SOMETHING.

STOP SHOUTING!

Sorry, but its bullion Britannias that are more expensive than Sovereigns. They are also 22 carat just the same as sovs. I think you need to change your coin dealer.

Quick check on coininvestdirect.com, who I have found cheaper than most.

Gold Spot this PM is £ 457.06

Brittania 1oz (31.1g) Buy £453.92 Sell £507.33

So thats 10% over spot

Sovereign (7.32g) Buy £106.05 Sell £113.93

31.1 / 7.32 = 4.249 = equivalent to Sell £484.09 per troy oz

Thats a mere 5.6% over spot

Its a no brainer. Other than the face value of a Brittania is £100, and the equivalent weight in Sovs are only £4.25. They are both legal tender so CGT free.

You are also missing the other point - Sovs have over 200 years circulation in the old British Empire and now Commonwealth. Everyone in the world recognises them and their value, even chavs. Most importantly, they are far more portable. You can stack Sovs in a cigar tube and insert into the rectum. This is of major value when the Nazis running the country set up concentration camps for being of non-PC mind and strip you down to the ******** for "processing". Or to a lesser extreme, if you get locked up on terrorism charges for heckling Jack Straw at a conference. They will become mighty useful in prison. I would like to see you shove Brittanias up your **** instead. LOL!

(I must acknowledge famed jailbreaker Pappilon for the Cigar "Charger" idea) ;)

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  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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