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Do We All Deserve Housing?

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In part of the line of work I do, I am involved within the rental market, be it in a very round about way.

I am very pro the tenant when it comes to being screwed (but I will add to that, that I will help no tenant that tries to screw his LL) and I am very frustrated with the predicament of the housing crisis that has been prevalent here since the Maggie days when she encouraged so many to buy their council house.

example one: My auntie bought her 4 bed council house at a knock down price. 10 years after buying it she sells up and buys a three bed small holding further north with 2 acres of land and 6 stables. Suddenly she’s talking with a plum in her mouth and looks down her nose at the local council estate.

example two: I know a 48 year old guy that got up at 6am every morning to do a 10hour day of hard graft. The guy has aspergers and the years of working in the steel works has left him with constant ringing in his ears and crippled with arthritic hands is only able to do more menial work within the company he’s been so loyal to. He's never had credit, he's never owned a house and he's been on the council housing list for 30 years but is still at the bottom of the pile. This 48 year old guy that’s never missed a days work in his life, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke and doesn’t gamble, lives in a squalid little bed-sit because that’s all he can afford. My personal view on this is ‘He’s been screwed by the system’

I believe that each and every one of us deserve housing but sadly for many of the people that will be sleeping rough tonight, that's just too much to ask.

I believe the system has screwed up big time and that we have created an unnecessary amount of 'good honest' working class people unable to afford adequate housing to rent or to buy.

I see families living in bed-sits because they can't afford the enormous rents. This is England for crying out loud!

I have seen life from both sides and I appreciate what its like to struggle 'and I mean really struggle'.

I strongly believe in the council house system where people can have a low rental property for life. We have created a nation of nomads because nobody can ever settle in a rental property knowing they could be given notice in 6 months time?

Rentals are fine on a temporary basis but human nature is to nest and that’s something one can never do in a rental property.

I have to add (to bob) this is not the fault of the LL or the LA. Yes they make money because at the end of the day its business. There are some bad agents (but even they need to be extremely careful these days) and you get some pretty damned awful LL’s too but you also get good of both the above. BTL jumped on the band wagon when the going was good but that’s no different than playing around with stocks and shares. We have to understand that the more recent BTL’s are amateur gamblers that would of probably fallen off the band wagon regardless of the crash.

Be interested to know how others here feel about renting and the long term housing solution ?

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In part of the line of work I do, I am involved within the rental market, be it in a very round about way.

I am very pro the tenant when it comes to being screwed (but I will add to that, that I will help no tenant that tries to screw his LL) and I am very frustrated with the predicament of the housing crisis that has been prevalent here since the Maggie days when she encouraged so many to buy their council house.

example one: My auntie bought her 4 bed council house at a knock down price. 10 years after buying it she sells up and buys a three bed small holding further north with 2 acres of land and 6 stables. Suddenly she’s talking with a plum in her mouth and looks down her nose at the local council estate.

example two: I know a 48 year old guy that got up at 6am every morning to do a 10hour day of hard graft. The guy has aspergers and the years of working in the steel works has left him with constant ringing in his ears and crippled with arthritic hands is only able to do more menial work within the company he’s been so loyal to. He's never had credit, he's never owned a house and he's been on the council housing list for 30 years but is still at the bottom of the pile. This 48 year old guy that’s never missed a days work in his life, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke and doesn’t gamble, lives in a squalid little bed-sit because that’s all he can afford. My personal view on this is ‘He’s been screwed by the system’

I believe that each and every one of us deserve housing but sadly for many of the people that will be sleeping rough tonight, that's just too much to ask.

I believe the system has screwed up big time and that we have created an unnecessary amount of 'good honest' working class people unable to afford adequate housing to rent or to buy.

I see families living in bed-sits because they can't afford the enormous rents. This is England for crying out loud!

I have seen life from both sides and I appreciate what its like to struggle 'and I mean really struggle'.

I strongly believe in the council house system where people can have a low rental property for life. We have created a nation of nomads because nobody can ever settle in a rental property knowing they could be given notice in 6 months time?

Rentals are fine on a temporary basis but human nature is to nest and that’s something one can never do in a rental property.

I have to add (to bob) this is not the fault of the LL or the LA. Yes they make money because at the end of the day its business. There are some bad agents (but even they need to be extremely careful these days) and you get some pretty damned awful LL’s too but you also get good of both the above. BTL jumped on the band wagon when the going was good but that’s no different than playing around with stocks and shares. We have to understand that the more recent BTL’s are amateur gamblers that would of probably fallen off the band wagon regardless of the crash.

Be interested to know how others here feel about renting and the long term housing solution ?

quote]

Good thoughtful post DR.

I honestly don't know what the ultimate solution is, but the present system is falling apart at the seems. People are at breaking point.[/

Edited by renterbob

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Several very good points in there DR. The one I want to pick up on is the "security of tenure".

The security of tenure is seen as the biggest drawback to renting in the UK. Quite a few years ago I was travelling in Europe and had a conversation with an Austrain guy who told me he had just spent 20000 euro doing up the flat he lived in. A bit later he mentioned his house in the country and when I asked him about this he said he was renting the flat. When I asked him why he would spend so much money on a flat that he didn't own he looked at me rather puzzled. Apparently there is absolute security of tenure in Austria, even to the point where the lease can be transferred to his son. So he went out and found a flat that really needed work done to it so that he got a really cheap rent and could justify spending the money to refurb it. He ended up with a great flat, low rent and total security of tenure.

I would love to see such a system adopted in the UK. The problem is a political one - the AST conditions are such that they are designed to protect the banks (not the BTL landlord, they are incidental) insofar as they can reclaim their asset in the advent of non-payment of mortgage funds. Would the government pass a law that protected the interest of tenants over the interests of the banks? Not likely.

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Several very good points in there DR. The one I want to pick up on is the "security of tenure".

The security of tenure is seen as the biggest drawback to renting in the UK. Quite a few years ago I was travelling in Europe and had a conversation with an Austrain guy who told me he had just spent 20000 euro doing up the flat he lived in. A bit later he mentioned his house in the country and when I asked him about this he said he was renting the flat. When I asked him why he would spend so much money on a flat that he didn't own he looked at me rather puzzled. Apparently there is absolute security of tenure in Austria, even to the point where the lease can be transferred to his son. So he went out and found a flat that really needed work done to it so that he got a really cheap rent and could justify spending the money to refurb it. He ended up with a great flat, low rent and total security of tenure.

I would love to see such a system adopted in the UK. The problem is a political one - the AST conditions are such that they are designed to protect the banks (not the BTL landlord, they are incidental) insofar as they can reclaim their asset in the advent of non-payment of mortgage funds. Would the government pass a law that protected the interest of tenants over the interests of the banks? Not likely.

We used to have security of tenure as a result of the 1977 LTA which made the protected tenancy, many of which are still in place today (my wife owns a property in Kingston with a protected second generation tenant)

However the UK does not have a culture of regarding rental properties as our home like the French and it would seem the Austrians (in France a rental property often does not even come with a kitchen sink) it proberly extends from our feudal past but we expect the LL to look after the property no questions asked.

As a result of the 1977 act, the number of rental properties just nose dived as it was just too risky for LL to rent, they got rent determined by the goverment (very low) they had to do all the repairs and yet they could never remain posession. By bringing in the 85,97,88 LTA/HA's they freed up the rental market and made it more fluid some that government didn't need to build million of council houses instead. You can argue that, that was bad policy along with right to buy but it has in effect privatised housing in the UK which makes it market force driven.

The rent market serves two purposes to provide longterm housing and transitional housing, you would be surprised how many people in rural areas live in private longterm rental properties, in cities it is less so, but that is where transitional housing is most required.

I would also like to see the banks given less power to evict because the LL can not manage their finances, the tenant is affect by actions outside their control but is in not that common place

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I totally agree, I live on a noisy road in a property that has problems, but I am satisfied with a roof over my head which is whats important.

The problem we had with the days since thatcher is they started a system where people expect more, they started a mindset where people think they should own their own house and in general be greedy. So now we have less council houses.

The 2nd problem I believe is our welfare system is very pro children, if someone has a child not only do they get garuantueed financial support they are also classed as priority for housing even tho they may already have suitable accomodation, eg. a young single parent living with her parents who might have her own room etc. would be given higher priority than the 48 year old in the example. You then of course factor in the priority given to immigrants etc. it basically ensures anyone who is classed as low priority will never get a council property, personally I believe I have been on the list for 8 years (lost track).

If you a single male who isnt registered disabled and has no children then no chance, as far as the state is concerned you can look after yourself.

Whats the solution, ultimately build more council housing in particular more council flats and scrap the prioritisation system and simply replace it with a first come first served basis, the only check that should apply is a basic means test.

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The simple answer is that people are capable of making their own rudimentary dwellings in very short spans of time which would then be free from that point onwards.

Try it and you'll get a batton to the head from the police and whatever you built burned to the ground or bulldozed.

The answer is to stop violently attacking people.

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The problem is, no matter what system is put in place there will always be the same people who play the system to their advantage. Mr good old honest single tax paying male won't know how to play the system and would therfore be pushed to the back of the queue when personal circumstances take a turn for the worst. If tax contributions were taken into account when housing allocations are considered; that would at least house those who deserved to be in a moral way. Instead the state choose to house those who never have and never will contribute and leave those who have and will to deteriorate in the streets of britain. I appreciate most circumstances are genuine and people find themselves in a position where they require state benefits, but at least give priority to people with equal circumstances who have contributed into the system.

This is, of course wishful thinking, there is no moral justice in this country.

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Several very good points in there DR. The one I want to pick up on is the "security of tenure".

The security of tenure is seen as the biggest drawback to renting in the UK. Quite a few years ago I was travelling in Europe and had a conversation with an Austrain guy who told me he had just spent 20000 euro doing up the flat he lived in. A bit later he mentioned his house in the country and when I asked him about this he said he was renting the flat. When I asked him why he would spend so much money on a flat that he didn't own he looked at me rather puzzled. Apparently there is absolute security of tenure in Austria, even to the point where the lease can be transferred to his son. So he went out and found a flat that really needed work done to it so that he got a really cheap rent and could justify spending the money to refurb it. He ended up with a great flat, low rent and total security of tenure.

I would love to see such a system adopted in the UK. The problem is a political one - the AST conditions are such that they are designed to protect the banks (not the BTL landlord, they are incidental) insofar as they can reclaim their asset in the advent of non-payment of mortgage funds. Would the government pass a law that protected the interest of tenants over the interests of the banks? Not likely.

As a BTL I would also love this.

One of the big problems LL face is getting people to hang around longer than 6 months to a year. I wish more of my tenents would do so.

It's so much hastle/cost finding new tenents.

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As a BTL I would also love this.

One of the big problems LL face is getting people to hang around longer than 6 months to a year. I wish more of my tenents would do so.

It's so much hastle/cost finding new tenents.

it would help if tenancy agreements lasted longer than 6 months, if you handing out 6 month agreements then you more likely to have short term tenants.

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it would help if tenancy agreements lasted longer than 6 months, if you handing out 6 month agreements then you more likely to have short term tenants.

Clearly the way to go.

I was offered a flat last night for 375/month on a year long contract - it was advertised for 495/month on rightmove - other flats in the same block were 525/month. I didn't negotiate that...was simply offered by the LA when the wife said the lounge was a bit small

This would have kept the LL/LA happy, and if it was what we wanted, I certainly would have been happy.

The LA said the LL was very keen to rent the flat, and as we walked through the block, there were 4 'for sale' signs on the one floor alone......

This was not a city centre flat.....about half a mile from city centre. It was like walking through an abandoned town.

Scary!

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Be interested to know how others here feel about renting and the long term housing solution ?

I think the problem is two fold - 1) The UK encourages people to come here by giving them housing (2) Giving single mums housing encourages family break up and increases the need for houses.

example two: I know a 48 year old guy that got up at 6am every morning to do a 10hour day of hard graft. The guy has aspergers and the years of working in the steel works has left him with constant ringing in his ears and crippled with arthritic hands is only able to do more menial work within the company he’s been so loyal to. He's never had credit, he's never owned a house and he's been on the council housing list for 30 years but is still at the bottom of the pile. This 48 year old guy that’s never missed a days work in his life, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke and doesn’t gamble, lives in a squalid little bed-sit because that’s all he can afford. My personal view on this is ‘He’s been screwed by the system’

I agree I know people who got better just by stepping of the plane and saying (via a translator) I am a single mum give me a house.

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it would help if tenancy agreements lasted longer than 6 months, if you handing out 6 month agreements then you more likely to have short term tenants.

Two reasons why tenancy agreements don't last longer than 6 months.

1. The agent wants to charge both the tenant and LL a renewal fee

2. Depending on the mortgage lender, most (for secure reasons) will not agree to more than 6 months.

PS. Having big pc problems at the moment :( ..... back soon

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Two reasons why tenancy agreements don't last longer than 6 months.

1. The agent wants to charge both the tenant and LL a renewal fee

2. Depending on the mortgage lender, most (for secure reasons) will not agree to more than 6 months.

PS. Having big pc problems at the moment :( ..... back soon

I have never paid a renewal fee, and wonder why some renters do so...and the LL/LA has never claimed it off my deposits.

As usual it is those who do nothing and getting money for it.

Viewed a flat last night, and TWO LA turned up to show us round...it was hilarious...one even offered a massive reduction for signing for a year.....why would a LL only want to agree for 6 months for security reasons? Surely that's lowering security having short term lets.

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In part of the line of work I do, I am involved within the rental market, be it in a very round about way.

I am very pro the tenant when it comes to being screwed (but I will add to that, that I will help no tenant that tries to screw his LL) and I am very frustrated with the predicament of the housing crisis that has been prevalent here since the Maggie days when she encouraged so many to buy their council house.

example one: My auntie bought her 4 bed council house at a knock down price. 10 years after buying it she sells up and buys a three bed small holding further north with 2 acres of land and 6 stables. Suddenly she’s talking with a plum in her mouth and looks down her nose at the local council estate.

example two: I know a 48 year old guy that got up at 6am every morning to do a 10hour day of hard graft. The guy has aspergers and the years of working in the steel works has left him with constant ringing in his ears and crippled with arthritic hands is only able to do more menial work within the company he’s been so loyal to. He's never had credit, he's never owned a house and he's been on the council housing list for 30 years but is still at the bottom of the pile. This 48 year old guy that’s never missed a days work in his life, doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke and doesn’t gamble, lives in a squalid little bed-sit because that’s all he can afford. My personal view on this is ‘He’s been screwed by the system’

I believe that each and every one of us deserve housing but sadly for many of the people that will be sleeping rough tonight, that's just too much to ask.

I believe the system has screwed up big time and that we have created an unnecessary amount of 'good honest' working class people unable to afford adequate housing to rent or to buy.

I see families living in bed-sits because they can't afford the enormous rents. This is England for crying out loud!

I have seen life from both sides and I appreciate what its like to struggle 'and I mean really struggle'.

I strongly believe in the council house system where people can have a low rental property for life. We have created a nation of nomads because nobody can ever settle in a rental property knowing they could be given notice in 6 months time?

Rentals are fine on a temporary basis but human nature is to nest and that’s something one can never do in a rental property.

I have to add (to bob) this is not the fault of the LL or the LA. Yes they make money because at the end of the day its business. There are some bad agents (but even they need to be extremely careful these days) and you get some pretty damned awful LL’s too but you also get good of both the above. BTL jumped on the band wagon when the going was good but that’s no different than playing around with stocks and shares. We have to understand that the more recent BTL’s are amateur gamblers that would of probably fallen off the band wagon regardless of the crash.

Be interested to know how others here feel about renting and the long term housing solution ?

The fact is that all governments since 1979 have been against council housing and to this day the number of council houses is in decline. The least they should do is to end RTB and start to build again but I guess the next Tory government will privatise the remaining council houses so that people have to pay 'market rents.'.....unfortunately it seems that resentment and greed are now the very foundation of of society and the housing mess is now spotlighting this. We are reaping what we've sown.

Long term rental? It should be available to about 20% of the population at any one time.

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I have never paid a renewal fee, and wonder why some renters do so...and the LL/LA has never claimed it off my deposits.

As usual it is those who do nothing and getting money for it.

Viewed a flat last night, and TWO LA turned up to show us round...it was hilarious...one even offered a massive reduction for signing for a year.....why would a LL only want to agree for 6 months for security reasons? Surely that's lowering security having short term lets.

The problem is that a lot of tenants don't read the fine lines of the paperwork in front of them before signing.

Tenants need to be aware of things such as renewal fees, check out fees, ref fees, cash fees, visiting fees and so on and so on.

Some agents charge them whilst others don't, so the answer is simple really.

Before looking round a property, ask the agent if they charge the renewal fee. If they say yes, then move on to another agent.

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The problem is that a lot of tenants don't read the fine lines of the paperwork in front of them before signing.

Tenants need to be aware of things such as renewal fees, check out fees, ref fees, cash fees, visiting fees and so on and so on.

Some agents charge them whilst others don't, so the answer is simple really.

Before looking round a property, ask the agent if they charge the renewal fee. If they say yes, then move on to another agent.

Fair point, but in my experience it made no difference, we asked the LA if they charged renewal fees, and he said 'no'. That's one of the reasons why we signed.

6 months later....he asks for 25 quid as a renewal fee....did we pay...NO!

Total scam.

This type of scam really annoys renters, and is accepted as standard LA behaviour, hence why they are all thought of as the same.

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Fair point, but in my experience it made no difference, we asked the LA if they charged renewal fees, and he said 'no'. That's one of the reasons why we signed.

6 months later....he asks for 25 quid as a renewal fee....did we pay...NO!

Total scam.

This type of scam really annoys renters, and is accepted as standard LA behaviour, hence why they are all thought of as the same.

The thing is, verbal means absolutely nothing. Unless something is put in pen and ink and signed by the tenant then the ll/la has no come back.

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The thing is, verbal means absolutely nothing. Unless something is put in pen and ink and signed by the tenant then the ll/la has no come back.

Good point, but honest people don't think about these scams, which are ongoing, we are not all out to be ruthless..we just want a GodDamn place to live with out these parasites sucking our blood (That's not a go at you DR...it is very frustrating when these liars keep going at it).

And people wonder why renters detest LAs...this practice has gone on for all too long.......

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Two reasons why tenancy agreements don't last longer than 6 months.

1. The agent wants to charge both the tenant and LL a renewal fee

2. Depending on the mortgage lender, most (for secure reasons) will not agree to more than 6 months.

PS. Having big pc problems at the moment :( ..... back soon

the reasons are mute to me, my point remains, if only very short terms are offered then you are more likely to get short term tenants, what is to stop a LL telling an EA (his employee effectively) that he does not want short tenancy agreements.

Point 2 doesnt make sense, a mortgage lender would surely prefer tenants are there long term paying rent so the person paying the mortgage is more likely to meet the payments.

As someone who is in his 3rd year at current property and was 4 years at previous property (same landlord), I can tell you if I move I will plan to stay there for years. If an EA insisted on 6 month renewals been charged each time I would say no. I expect other long term tenants think the same. I have 1 year renewals with no fees to renew.

Edited by Chrysalis

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Great thread, DR. :)

I was one of the single young males who couldn't get a council flat. Joined the housing list when I got my 1st full time job in 2000. Opted for every estate in the Local Authority area (even the iffy areas) and couldn't even get a studio or tower block flat in the 4 years I was on the list.

Ashamed to say that I was one of Thatcher's children. My parents bought their council house in the early 80s. Ironically I disagree with the whole thing as I believe this is what prevented me getting a council flat in the 1st and not to mention a factor in the soaring house prices in recent years.

The Council's opinion is that I should be renting privately, despite earning less than £13k a year. In 2004 I did rent privately, my 'housing need criteria' dropped steeply.

So much for councils looking after the interests of its own citizens! :angry:

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Great thread, DR. :)

I was one of the single young males who couldn't get a council flat. Joined the housing list when I got my 1st full time job in 2000. Opted for every estate in the Local Authority area (even the iffy areas) and couldn't even get a studio or tower block flat in the 4 years I was on the list.

Ashamed to say that I was one of Thatcher's children. My parents bought their council house in the early 80s. Ironically I disagree with the whole thing as I believe this is what prevented me getting a council flat in the 1st and not to mention a factor in the soaring house prices in recent years.

The Council's opinion is that I should be renting privately, despite earning less than £13k a year. In 2004 I did rent privately, my 'housing need criteria' dropped steeply.

So much for councils looking after the interests of its own citizens! :angry:

I doubt if as a single man you would have got a council house even if RTB had never happened.

I know lots of foreign single mums who have got flats if they hadn't you might have had.

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  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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