oracle Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 QUOTEWhy do we need central heating. Personally I don't but the elderly do WHY?.We do have cold snaps and alot do die in those times. They die from the cold? why don't they wear 3 jumpers , thermals, suitable clothing. that will make them sweat in the winter let alone die from the cold Central Heating only became commonplace in the 70's As a kid in the 60's we had one room warm and the rest of the house unheated, we went to bed with a hot water bottle. This might seem like a radical solution. Elderly people often live alone,and can get quite lonely...as well as cold. maybe it's time to share.look at the positives. ....more fuel efficient,help with menial chores,company and someone to natter to,only 1 tv licence/gas/electricity/phone/water bill to worry about. we have numerous ways of taking up the slack,it doesn't have to be painful. Selfishness is soooo last century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) People define 'need' so loosely nowadays, they say 'need' when they mean 'want' or 'am used to having'.Widespread central heating is a fairly recent phenomenon; back in the 70s school friends with centrally heated houses were considered a bit posh, they were the same ones who took foreign holidays. None of the places I rented in the early/mid 80s had central heating -- it was still electric bar fires and gas fires. My guess is that the first big wave of installations took place during the easy-money days of the Lawson boom, and that it will become rarer (to run a system, if not to own one) from here on out. If we don't want old people dying of cold, we need to start doing some major social engineering right now -- by moving away from free markets and flat energy pricing and toward a pricing structure that rewards the frugal and crucifies the profligate, perhaps. Of course, people accustomed to unlimited energy consumption would whine about this, and whiners mean lost votes, so it won't happen and people will indeed die. With reasonable investments you can have the best of both worlds. I have got my consumption down to 9000kwh for gas I plan to add another 20 tube solar panel which will shave 1500-1600kwh off that Looking into secondary glazing to upgrade my glazing to triple glazing saving another 1500kwh May possibly put a small stove in 3-4kw. If I get my gas consumption down to 6000kwh - this will be for an intenral temp of around 20. Electricity consumption still around 3500kwh - but more difficult to cut as I have 2 lodgers. Edited July 31, 2008 by Kurt Barlow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 When did I say that ? i don't need gas to heat my home, 99.9% of others don't need gas to heat their homes yet i am pissed off that the price of something i dont need nor really want is going up in price!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barebear Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm with cells.And you don't have an argument. You not once explain in any reasoned way your opposition to large profits. So at what point do YOU start moaning about the prices ? When petrol is a tenner a litre, gas takes a third of your earnings, when ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Feck me you might be onto something there. Cows with bags attached to their ar$es. Then take to a big container and store it,then sell it on. yeh but someone will probably introduce a cow fart tax to take away our profits. might not be worth it tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barebear Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I never said that why would I ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 With reasonable investments you can have the best of both worlds.I have got my consumption down to 9000kwh for gas I plan to add another 20 tube solar panel which will shave 1500-1600kwh off that Looking into secondary glazing to upgrade my glazing to triple glazing saving another 1500kwh May possibly put a small stove in 3-4kw. If I get my gas consumption down to 6000kwh - this will be for an intenral temp of around 20. Electricity consumption still around 3500kwh - but more difficult to cut as I have 2 lodgers. The investment will still require social engineering though -- genuinely vulnerable people can't manage to self-install and probably can't afford the market rate. And there's still the problem that a rich person pays the same (or less actually, because of front-loaded tariffs) for the 10,000th kWH of use, than a poor pensioner pays for the first. It's no good 90% of us economising, just to leave supplies for the remaining 10% to burn through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 So at what point do YOU start moaning about the prices ? When petrol is a tenner a litre, gas takes a third of your earnings, when ? I would suggest one starts moaning when moaning helps which is usually NEVER I would be fine with petrol at £5 a liter just FYI but it will never get to that because renewable will be profitable and cap the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infrared Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Interesting, I know said I didn't know what else Centrica had, but I'd assumed it was mostly at least in the energy field! Yep they went nuts years ago when they split from BG PLC and just bought into anything They actually did well from the likes of Goldfish and a lot of the other junk and, credit where it's due, have used the money they got from the sale of these 'assets' to put back into exploration. No idea at all how they ended up going that direction but at least they're now energy based and it makes sense. They still service boilers and wotnot too don't forget! Plus they make a significant sum from gas storage, infrastructure, gas trading, power generation and the like. Don't get me wrong I think that the profits can be obscene but they have to be taken in context - it's a high risk high reward game, I just think it's a shame more is not done to smooth the investment and the returns. But that's not human nature is it and if it was we wouldn't be here discussing a HPC. Out of interest I was speaking to a friend today who works for one of the oil co's in London. Late 2007 and early 2008 this particular company has shed about half the staff and pulled operations back to the States. All because of costs and all at a time of $100/barrel. He's waiting at the moment to see how it pans out but expects there's a 50:50 chance of being made redundant in the next 6mnths. Maybe if these accountants invested in the staff, technology and the future of energy then there'd be less profit, more to show for it and less people moaning about it. But that wouldn't be any good for the dividends now would it and the bankers would ask questions It's all about the bankers in the end isn't it?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I never said that why would I ? you did but was sly enough to edit it out before you asked me. so why exactly do you need central heating again?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 yeh but someone will probably introduce a cow fart tax to take away our profits. might not be worth it tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barebear Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I would suggest one starts moaning when moaning helps which is usually NEVERI would be fine with petrol at £5 a liter just FYI but it will never get to that because renewable will be profitable and cap the price. So your a doormat then just like the rest of the UK population. Battered by Thatcher in the 80's we've lost our bottle to fight. Now we just accept everything. If the government told you to hop down the street you would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 So what's the solution? Buy your own solar power systems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barebear Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Are you pi$$ed Cells ? Your even quoting your self now !! Along with making up what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 The investment will still require social engineering though -- genuinely vulnerable people can't manage to self-install and probably can't afford the market rate.And there's still the problem that a rich person pays the same (or less actually, because of front-loaded tariffs) for the 10,000th kWH of use, than a poor pensioner pays for the first. It's no good 90% of us economising, just to leave supplies for the remaining 10% to burn through. Peronally I think that the licence conditions for any domestic industry supplier should be changed. Each household gets a certain amount of gas at a reasonable price. As consumption rises so does the tariff. This would help protect the poor from the worst effects of fuel inflation and create incentives to conserve. Unfortunately the current system seems to punish the frugal with front end loading as you point out. France already promotes conservation with electricity. A 6kw tariff is cheaper than 12kw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 So what's the solution? Buy your own solar power systems? Ermmmm how about..... this is probably going to shock you so do sit down first....... not turning on the central heating/???!!!1 OMG it is radical, but might it work? Who knows, 10 shillings to the brave soul who attempts this daring challenge first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Are you pi$$ed Cells ? Your even quoting your self now !! Along with making up what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corevalue Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Peronally I think that the licence conditions for any domestic industry supplier should be changed. Each household gets a certain amount of gas at a reasonable price. As consumption rises so does the tariff. This would help protect the poor from the worst effects of fuel inflation and create incentives to conserve. Unfortunately the current system seems to punish the frugal with front end loading as you point out.France already promotes conservation with electricity. A 6kw tariff is cheaper than 12kw. It really annoys me that the front loading of electricity makes it totally unviable to install solar panels. I was thinking of using a 1kW charger to charge my batteries on the cheap night-time tarrif, and use the power the rest of the day through an inverter. 4p/unit at night offsetting about 11p/unit day, ~70% round trip efficiency, leaves me about 5-6p per unit in pocket. Totally non-green however, apart from the fact I can absorb most of the losses as central heating additions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barebear Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Invest in a cow for the gas and hamsters for the electric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Peronally I think that the licence conditions for any domestic industry supplier should be changed. Each household gets a certain amount of gas at a reasonable price. As consumption rises so does the tariff. This would help protect the poor from the worst effects of fuel inflation and create incentives to conserve. Unfortunately the current system seems to punish the frugal with front end loading as you point out. oooooo barebear someone seems to be challenging you for your medals!! France already promotes conservation with electricity. A 6kw tariff is cheaper than 12kw. ohhh, too bad, he just about pulled himself out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Ermmmm how about..... this is probably going to shock you so do sit down first....... not turning on the central heating/???!!!1 OMG it is radical, but might it work? Who knows, 10 shillings to the brave soul who attempts this daring challenge first. Christ - you are like a broken record declaring - wear a jumper like its some eureka revelation I think many will be going down that route and plenty of us have been in that camp for some time- However it only goes so far. jumpers don't heat the water, cook the tea, provide lighting, power for the tv / radio etc etc etc. Turn off the heating - fine if you live in a flat / terrace you can rob someone elses heat - but once the temperature drops below 15 degrees the risk of bronchitis, heart attack, strokes etc rises substantially - particularly in the elderly / vulnerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 France already promotes conservation with electricity. A 6kw tariff is cheaper than 12kw. Interesting, I didn't know that. The great thing about such an approach is that it can achieve societal goals with no actual physical investment (or rather, the investment will emerge when heavy users are given an incentive to conserve). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sillybear2 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) I/we cant go elsewhere save giving up driving , installing a wood burning stove and an lpg generator.How come your BP shares havent gone anywhere are they shafting the share holders too ? BP are being shafted by the Russians. It turns out after finding/drilling/piping/shipping/refining/retailing along with being shot at and kidnapped by rebel groups in the process, then being shafted by foreign governments, this game isn't quite as lucrative as you imagine, especially when government gets far more in tax (from both the motorists and the oil produces themselves) without any of the above problems. 'Big Oil' is basically insignificant these days, they cannot replace their reserves at the same rate as production (and haven't done so for 25 years), it's the national oil companies in the middle-east and Russia that hold the power. As for British Gas/Centrica, you DO have a choice, if you don't like this company then go elsewhere. But your gripe goes far deeper than that, if you have a problem with the price of the commodities themselves, rather than the distributors/retailers, then point the finger at companies like Gazprom. It's an international market, the UK can beat up (tax) or renationalise our energy industry but it won't make a slightest bit of difference to the price of the commodity itself, especially with the North Sea well passed its peak and the UK as a net energy importer, if a company cannot make money selling oil/gas in the UK then there's plenty of other willing bidders ready to buy it instead. Like other countries, the UK is like a spoilt child, we've gorged ourselves and built infrastructure around an never ending native supply of cheap abundant energy. This fairly tale has now come to an end, and people like you throw your toy out of the pram and demand the government 'do something' like reverse the laws of geology rather than accept the reality of the situation. We simply need to become way more efficient, in terms of energy efficiency our housing stock is poor, we have more cars on the road than ever because motoring is still cheaper in real terms than 20 years ago, Ryanair still believe they can fly you half way across Europe for the price of a sandwich, our supermarkets are full of cheap foods that have been flown half way across the globe. All this is predicated on cheap energy, we need to realign our thinking, energy is a scarce resource that has been underpriced and wasted, now it's being priced fairly and people don't like it. Anyway, my Hummer costs too much to fill up, it's all Thatchers fault, up the miners, renationalise all the empty oil fields. Boo Hoo Edited July 31, 2008 by sillybear2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Barlow Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Interesting, I didn't know that.The great thing about such an approach is that it can achieve societal goals with no actual physical investment (or rather, the investment will emerge when heavy users are given an incentive to conserve). It helps reduce demand spikes as most of their output is fixed. You opt for one tariff and pay accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barebear Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Christ - you are like a broken record declaring - wear a jumper like its some eureka revelationI think many will be going down that route and plenty of us have been in that camp for some time- However it only goes so far. jumpers don't heat the water, cook the tea, provide lighting, power for the tv / radio etc etc etc. Turn off the heating - fine if you live in a flat / terrace you can rob someone elses heat - but once the temperature drops below 15 degrees the risk of bronchitis, heart attack, strokes etc rises substantially - particularly in the elderly / vulnerable. Dont worry he's either pi$$ed or deluded or both. Its called HPC madness look at how many posts he's got,he's been here forever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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