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Waitingforhorsemen

Compensation

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I have been renting a house with my wife for 9 months now (on a 12 month lease).

The agents have recently implied that the landlord may want to raise the rent should he wish to renew. I have told them that in-line with market conditions I will be expecting rent to decrease but it is up to them to establish what they think is a fair rent and make me an offer and, if it is not in-line with aforementioned expectations, to expect me to move out.

Whether I renew or not, the end of the lease means I probably need to establish recompense for a number of issues we have had with the property (which I have listed below). I wonder would anyone be kind enough to give me some advice on i) gaining compensation if we move out ii) if we sign a new agreement whether that could be used to establish satisfaction at the previous agreement and therefore prevent future claim of compensation iii) the amount of compensation which is reasonable. All this of course prior to me seeking out formal legal advice.

BTW there is documentation to support the issues below in the unlikely event they are contested.

Subset of problems with house:

1. House inadequately prepared for us moving in i.e. dishwasher, washing machine not plumbed, no drapes provided etc. Preventing us privately enjoying the property for the first couple of weeks

2. Continual problems with the shower which has resulted in continual repair work to the shower itself and the bathroom below (to which it leaked). The problem with the shower stemmed from unsatisfactory workmanship from builders who renovated the house prior to us moving in. This has resulted in around 10 days of work to our property.

3. Complete failure of all radiators (during the winter of course) - again resulting from unsatisfactory workmanship prior to us moving in. This resulted in us having to run electrical blower heaters (kindly provided by the estate agents) and several visits to first flush out the central heating and replace all radiators. You can imagine the degree of disruption this has caused.

4. Garage provided with the propery was damaged prior to us moving in (as noted when I was doing the inventory). This was to be repaired ASAP and the keys to the new door provided to us (the door would not open due to the damage). This work was only completed (apparently due to problems with insurance & builders) only 1 month ago i.e. 8 months after we moved in. In the meantime we have had to store stuff in the house etc. Incidently this resulted in our bikes being stolen from where they were chained @ the front of the property.

Edited by Waitingforhorsemen

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Sadly I very much doubt your could claim compensation in the legal sense and rather only compensation as far as no rent increase as most of your complaints could have been managed using rent set-off. Secondly the value of the claim would be too small to use the court system to best effect as the small claim court does not award damaged and the formal court process would be very risky and expensive if you lost.

Secondly based on the above negociating the rent down will probably result in you being asked to leave as a new tenant will no doubt pay more if the market will support that.

I have redlined your comments

1. House inadequately prepared for us moving in i.e. dishwasher, washing machine not plumbed, no drapes provided etc. Preventing us privately enjoying the property for the first couple of weeks

There is no legal requirement to have done either unless it was agreed in the contract, no wriiten agreement, no ability to claim, rental property is taken on a "as seen" basis unless agreed otherwise

2. Continual problems with the shower which has resulted in continual repair work to the shower itself and the bathroom below (to which it leaked). The problem with the shower stemmed from unsatisfactory workmanship from builders who renovated the house prior to us moving in. This has resulted in around 10 days of work to our property.

Did they actually fix the issue in a reasonable time frame? if they did they met their obligation under S11 of the 1985 Landlord Tenant Acts, you can not easily claim damages if the work was down regardless of the time it took, by easily I mean you would have to prove in no uncertain terms that you could not use the property as a result and prove that you had to spend money living elsewhere. It would be very hard to claim inconvenience

3. Complete failure of all radiators (during the winter of course) - again resulting from unsatisfactory workmanship prior to us moving in. This resulted in us having to run electrical blower heaters (kindly provided by the estate agents) and several visits to first flush out the central heating and replace all radiators. You can imagine the degree of disruption this has caused.

A Landlord must look after the heating system but again if they took action in a reasonable time frame (reasonable being 5 days) you do not have a claim

4. Garage provided with the propery was damaged prior to us moving in (as noted when I was doing the inventory). This was to be repaired ASAP and the keys to the new door provided to us (the door would not open due to the damage). This work was only completed (apparently due to problems with insurance & builders) only 1 month ago i.e. 8 months after we moved in. In the meantime we have had to store stuff in the house etc. Incidently this resulted in our bikes being stolen from where they were chained @ the front of the property.

You probably have a reason to claim here, you rented the property with a garage and you did not have use of it, however the better solution to this would have been to repair it yourself and offset the next months rent against the costs. As for the bike, why chain them in full view at the front of the house and did you insure them. That is not the LL's problem to look after your bike garage or not and the reason you need to be insured. It is like saying the LL did not provide a safe when he said he would so I left a pile of cash in the living window and somebody broke in and stole it, you have to take personal responsibility to look after your propery

I would argue you only have reason to "compensation" by way of future rent payments for the loss of use of the garage and if and only if the other repairs took too long to complete. I would also say that any other form of action (i.e. legal) would be costly, risky and if in the unlikely event they were succesful would probably cost more than it is yields.

If you like the house use these issues as negociation points, if not I suggest to put it down to expereince and leave but don't forget the LL can issue you a section 21 notice and you have to leave at the end of the contract so pushing it too far may not be in your best interest

Edited by Matt Henson

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I found myself nodding to everything Matt said (started to remind myself of one of those little dogs my nan used to have in the back of her car!!)

A good solicitor would tell you not to waste your money.

Sounds to me like both yourself and the landlord have been very unfortunate but at least you can thank your lucky stars that you didn't have to foot the bills.

Are you happy where you are or are you just planning big court action for the future?

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I have been renting a house with my wife for 9 months now (on a 12 month lease).

The agents have recently implied that the landlord may want to raise the rent should he wish to renew. I have told them that in-line with market conditions I will be expecting rent to decrease but it is up to them to establish what they think is a fair rent and make me an offer and, if it is not in-line with aforementioned expectations, to expect me to move out.

Whether I renew or not, the end of the lease means I probably need to establish recompense for a number of issues we have had with the property (which I have listed below). I wonder would anyone be kind enough to give me some advice on i) gaining compensation if we move out ii) if we sign a new agreement whether that could be used to establish satisfaction at the previous agreement and therefore prevent future claim of compensation iii) the amount of compensation which is reasonable. All this of course prior to me seeking out formal legal advice.

BTW there is documentation to support the issues below in the unlikely event they are contested.

Subset of problems with house:

1. House inadequately prepared for us moving in i.e. dishwasher, washing machine not plumbed, no drapes provided etc. Preventing us privately enjoying the property for the first couple of weeks

2. Continual problems with the shower which has resulted in continual repair work to the shower itself and the bathroom below (to which it leaked). The problem with the shower stemmed from unsatisfactory workmanship from builders who renovated the house prior to us moving in. This has resulted in around 10 days of work to our property.

3. Complete failure of all radiators (during the winter of course) - again resulting from unsatisfactory workmanship prior to us moving in. This resulted in us having to run electrical blower heaters (kindly provided by the estate agents) and several visits to first flush out the central heating and replace all radiators. You can imagine the degree of disruption this has caused.

4. Garage provided with the propery was damaged prior to us moving in (as noted when I was doing the inventory). This was to be repaired ASAP and the keys to the new door provided to us (the door would not open due to the damage). This work was only completed (apparently due to problems with insurance & builders) only 1 month ago i.e. 8 months after we moved in. In the meantime we have had to store stuff in the house etc. Incidently this resulted in our bikes being stolen from where they were chained @ the front of the property.

I would go for it.

Don't be surprised at Matts and DR comments, they are both landlords and in their worl LL are always blameless and renters are scum.

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On the other hand, Matt and DemolitionRed have given you advice that is based in law rather than in opinion. You would be wise to examine their comments and make up your own mind about proceeding in such a way that best suits you.

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On the other hand, Matt and DemolitionRed have given you advice that is based in law rather than in opinion. You would be wise to examine their comments and make up your own mind about proceeding in such a way that best suits you.

Well, they are both Landlords and agents, so their views are therefore biased, and I agree, the OP should weigh the pros and cons of going forth, but it would be good to have a dipole of opinions in the matter, rather than the usual LL/EA/LA gobble saying 'renters have no rights and should be goody goodies, whilst permitting all and sundry to shaft them and their families'

As renters often get scammed and are finding it harder to put food on the table I genuinely think many more will stop direct debit payments to enable food to be put on the table.

Eviction orders can take up to 6 months, saving that money on rent will help alot of renters to put food in the bellies of their kids.

Choice: Pay rent or eat?

No contest.

Edited by renterbob

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Well, they are both Landlords and agents, so their views are therefore biased, and I agree, the OP should weigh the pros and cons of going forth, but it would be good to have a dipole of opinions in the matter, rather than the usual LL/EA/LA gobble saying 'renters have no rights and should be goody goodies, whilst permitting all and sundry to shaft them and their families'

As renters often get scammed and are finding it harder to put food on the table I genuinely think many more will stop direct debit payments to enable food to be put on the table.

Eviction orders can take up to 6 months, saving that money on rent will help alot of renters to put food in the bellies of their kids.

Choice: Pay rent or eat?

No contest.

Funny that CCJ you will get might have a nasty affect on your ability to borrow money in the current climate... keep up the hot tips Bob....

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Funny that CCJ you will get might have a nasty affect on your ability to borrow money in the current climate... keep up the hot tips Bob....

Borrow money...in this climate...oh Matt, if you need to do that to pay your bills, you really are in sh** creek.

:lol::lol:

LL can't get CCJs, they'll be too busy defending themselves from reposession orders when renters stop rental payments.

Funny...?

Only for the renters with no CCJs seeing the LLs going to court, getting repo'd, and all because renters stop direct debits to the landlords, then the banks own the property, and they take 6 months to evict the tenants..... I seriously may try this myself.

6 months free rent, and a shafting of a scummy landlord......2 birds with one stone!

My God, good idea Matt, keep 'em coming.

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Borrow money...in this climate...oh Matt, if you need to do that to pay your bills, you really are in sh** creek.

:lol::lol:

LL can't get CCJs, they'll be too busy defending themselves from reposession orders when renters stop rental payments.

Funny...?

Only for the renters with no CCJs seeing the LLs going to court, getting repo'd, and all because renters stop direct debits to the landlords, then the banks own the property, and they take 6 months to evict the tenants..... I seriously may try this myself.

6 months free rent, and a shafting of a scummy landlord......2 birds with one stone!

My God, good idea Matt, keep 'em coming.

perhaps to buy a car? or buy a house when the prices bottom out? not likely when that vengful LL takes you to the cleaners for breach of contract.

What if your LL's is not a highly leveraged BTL? what if they own the property outright, me think they might just have the patience to make you pay, don't you?

It would good to see some evidence that you practice what you preach, can you keep us updated of the legal process with you LL?

btw what are the banks going to do with the property when they repossess it?

You assume too much... good luck

Edited by Matt Henson

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perhaps to buy a car? or buy a house when the prices bottom out? not likely when that vengful LL takes you to the cleaners for breach of contract.

What if your LL's is not a highly leveraged BTL? what if they own the property outright, me think they might just have the patience to make you pay, don't you?

It would good to see some evidence that you practice what you preach, can you keep us updated of the legal process with you LL?

btw what are the banks going to do with the property when they repossess it?

You assume too much... good luck

1. Most BTLs are very highly mewed, we all know that. No assumption

2. No BTL buys properties outright these days, that's silly, even for you Matt. No assumption.

3. I have a car, and don't wish to buy a house. People wouldn't buy if there were affordable rents. No assumption.

4. Most LL are vengeful, as you clearly demonstrate, but they will not have the financial might to pursue cute tenants. See main board.

5. Banks will try to auction the properties, and can't auction them now, so in a years time a months rent will probably buy one.

Assumption, fair enough, but a reasonable one IMO

Note Matt, no insults, try it sometime.

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1. Most BTLs are very highly mewed, we all know that. No assumption

2. No BTL buys properties outright these days, that's silly, even for you Matt. No assumption.

3. I have a car, and don't wish to buy a house. People wouldn't buy if there were affordable rents. No assumption.

4. Most LL are vengeful, as you clearly demonstrate, but they will not have the financial might to pursue cute tenants. See main board.

5. Banks will try to auction the properties, and can't auction them now, so in a years time a months rent will probably buy one.

Assumption, fair enough, but a reasonable one IMO

Note Matt, no insults, try it sometime.

1. Most BTLs are very highly mewed, we all know that. No assumption

You are assuming all LL's are recent BTL's most have owned their rental portfolio for years

2. No BTL buys properties outright these days, that's silly, even for you Matt. No assumption.

Most LL's who bought pre 2000 will either own outright are nearly

3. I have a car, and don't wish to buy a house. People wouldn't buy if there were affordable rents. No assumption.

What if you need a new car?

4. Most LL are vengeful, as you clearly demonstrate, but they will not have the financial might to pursue cute tenants. See main board.

It costs £50 to take somebody to the small claims court, not beyond the whit of even the most broke LL

5. Banks will try to auction the properties, and can't auction them now, so in a years time a months rent will probably buy one.

Assumption, fair enough, but a reasonable one IMO

Everthing has it's price, if the price of Assets drops as far as you would like to believe you can forget drive your car, there won't even be roads to drive on... unlikley I suggest

You are still a fool Bob, no appreciation of simple ecomnomics

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1. Most BTLs are very highly mewed, we all know that. No assumption

You are assuming all LL's are recent BTL's most have owned their rental portfolio for years

2. No BTL buys properties outright these days, that's silly, even for you Matt. No assumption.

Most LL's who bought pre 2000 will either own outright are nearly

3. I have a car, and don't wish to buy a house. People wouldn't buy if there were affordable rents. No assumption.

What if you need a new car?

4. Most LL are vengeful, as you clearly demonstrate, but they will not have the financial might to pursue cute tenants. See main board.

It costs £50 to take somebody to the small claims court, not beyond the whit of even the most broke LL

5. Banks will try to auction the properties, and can't auction them now, so in a years time a months rent will probably buy one.

Assumption, fair enough, but a reasonable one IMO

Everthing has it's price, if the price of Assets drops as far as you would like to believe you can forget drive your car, there won't even be roads to drive on... unlikley I suggest

You are still a fool Bob, no appreciation of simple ecomnomics

No need to name call Matt

No need for that at all, it's childish and not polite.

50 quid is alot of money when you're skint. Many LL will not only be skint but in serious debt for years to come due to mewing/80% falls in property prices, to 1970s prices.

I think you are typical of LL, and dread the thought of depreciating asset value, I can't blame you for that, you have a family to look after, and they should be your first concern. A man who cares for his family has my respect.

Renters familes are no less the concerns of us renters. LL have no respect for that, and their lies the rub.

What was unthinkable was banks losing 99% of their profits, BA losing over 85% of profits, etc etc.....the unthinkable happens all the time, and it will catch house prices in the UK.

I hope the BTL keep their cars, as they'll be living in them all too soon (as in USA - California/Detroit) and UK (Sheffield).

This is real Matt, and hopefully renters can get the best deal for their families, I hoped you'd have a little more courage to understand that.

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No need to name call Matt

No need for that at all, it's childish and not polite.

50 quid is alot of money when you're skint. Many LL will not only be skint but in serious debt for years to come due to mewing/80% falls in property prices, to 1970s prices.

I think you are typical of LL, and dread the thought of depreciating asset value, I can't blame you for that, you have a family to look after, and they should be your first concern. A man who cares for his family has my respect.

Renters familes are no less the concerns of us renters. LL have no respect for that, and their lies the rub.

What was unthinkable was banks losing 99% of their profits, BA losing over 85% of profits, etc etc.....the unthinkable happens all the time, and it will catch house prices in the UK.

I hope the BTL keep their cars, as they'll be living in them all too soon (as in USA - California/Detroit) and UK (Sheffield).

This is real Matt, and hopefully renters can get the best deal for their families, I hoped you'd have a little more courage to understand that.

You forget I am a renter Bob and as a renter I am afrid I don't buy your politics

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You forget I am a renter Bob and as a renter I am afrid I don't buy your politics

Then we can agree to disagree Matt, as you are also LL you see both sides, which I don't.

We disagree. No worries.

Not my politics BTW...the financial markets are calling the shots now, I'm just a small fish in the big pond.

Edited by renterbob

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Then we can agree to disagree Matt, as you are also LL you see both sides, which I don't.

We disagree. No worries.

Not my politics BTW...the financial markets are calling the shots now, I'm just a small fish in the big pond.

If you don't see both side why make absurd comments, why not try and use an articulated argument to make your case?

Yes the financial markets are calling the shots but the shot they are calling is self protection which by it's very nature will result in some kind of re-balance, the human race didn't self destruct in the 1930 depression and central goverments have many ways to buy themselves out of hard times, not least printing money!

You also have to remember a lot of private rental stock is either owned by "old money" or by businesses and these guys sure as hell can fork out £50 if only to stick a CCJ on a bad tenants name for the future.

The housing market is way over priced and it will correct but it will correct back to safe multiples of earnings i.e no more than 3x, so house prices won't keel over and die completely because the average household wage at £28k means the average man in the street with a clean record can borrow £90k, make sense?

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Did they actually fix the issue [the shower] in a reasonable time frame? if they did they met their obligation under S11 of the 1985 Landlord Tenant Acts, you can not easily claim damages if the work was down regardless of the time it took, by easily I mean you would have to prove in no uncertain terms that you could not use the property as a result and prove that you had to spend money living elsewhere. It would be very hard to claim inconvenience

I think most judges would agree that being able to wash yourself is a pretty basic and essential requirement of the infrastructure in a home, and that if it was understood by both parties at the time the AST was signed that the property included a working shower, not having one for any significant period of time (i.e. more than a couple of days) is a significant breach of contract.

This place sounds like a complete hole. If the OP is right and rents are falling, my inclination would be to simply move out at the end of the AST, take the hit on moving costs and take advantage of the falling rents in choosing somewhere else. If the cost and hassle of moving is a major disincentive, offer a rent around 10-15% minus the current going rate for that sort of property in that area to reflect the trouble you've had with the place over the year you've been there, with a 'take it, or leave it and face a void period' message. If rents aren't falling and/or demand outstrips supply for that sort of property in that area, then I'm afraid you won't be starting from a position of so much strength.

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If you don't see both side why make absurd comments, why not try and use an articulated argument to make your case?

Yes the financial markets are calling the shots but the shot they are calling is self protection which by it's very nature will result in some kind of re-balance, the human race didn't self destruct in the 1930 depression and central goverments have many ways to buy themselves out of hard times, not least printing money!

You also have to remember a lot of private rental stock is either owned by "old money" or by businesses and these guys sure as hell can fork out £50 if only to stick a CCJ on a bad tenants name for the future.

The housing market is way over priced and it will correct but it will correct back to safe multiples of earnings i.e no more than 3x, so house prices won't keel over and die completely because the average household wage at £28k means the average man in the street with a clean record can borrow £90k, make sense?

Why should renters see both sides, it's not in our interests?

I don't give a damn what happns to LL/EA/LA...why should I, they'v been scamming us for years.

A bankrupt business hasn't got a bean to follow up a few hundred quid for missed rents....and the many, many months it takes, with all the luck needed, and all the delaying tactics renters can now use, legally, puts your arguments in the bin.

CCJ on a renters name...no chance.

CCJ by a bank on a repo'd LL due to missed rental payments however, is a sure thing.

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  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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