French Property

[Agentimmo]

With Brexit now a reality, I'm hoping the crashing pound will result in less Brits buying in France and bring the market down another notch. Hoping quite a few British immigrants on the Riveira decide to head back to Blighty too

Another question - does anyone think that current laws allowing Brits to have UK Ltd companies setup in UK but live in France (or elsewhere in the EU) paying less taxes will survive Brexit. I've a feeling this might not be such an attactive option 2-3 years down the line.

Could force a few to move back?

[redwine]

http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/les-retraites-britanniques-de-combiers-ronges-par-l-incertitude-29-06-2016-5923241.php

Le Parisien 29/6/16

Brexit les retraites britanniques de Dordogne rongés par l'incertitude.

Brexit The retired British in the Dordogne are worried sick because of the uncertainty.

Quote

Over the last four days everything has toppled over in Combiers.

We only sleep five hours a night i am worried for us and everybody over there.

This Brexit is completely mad idiot and not democratic !.

Having re-gained self control in between anger and stupefaction Kate and her friend Alison are sitting in front of a glass of apple juice.

At first sight no cataclysm has yet reached there houses nor the 12th century church or the pleasant streets of this hamlet of a 129 souls out of which 25% are British.

But for theses fevrent defenders of the E.U the Scots Kate and Alison the English Anne,Peter,Iris and Steve.

All of the little British community with grey hairs who have had a nice easy going life-style since the 1990,s but today life seems to be on ' suspense'.

Its a jump into the unknown we can imagine everything but we know nothing resumes well this bewilded group of friends who landed one day in this...

"fantastic little village where the locals welcomed them from the bottom of there hearts (sic)".

We follow hour by hour the value of the pound and it hasn't stopped falling 1.25 last night and 1.19 a few hours ago.

Kate a retired school teacher risks losing 10% of her pension of 1,900 euros.

"I don't know if i can continue to maintain my house" said the sixty year old.

Steve says to make some savings he's going to spend six months in the South of England and six months in the village.

Our health ? what about our E111 health card will it still be valid questions Kate.

Iris is above all worried about her two cats will they be put into six months quarantine when they want to step over the Channel.

In the village he does not mix with the small retired British community.

Robert 50 years old from Cornwall is one of the rare British who is openly 'leave' especially as his fellow countrymen are pro EU and anti-Brexit.

"The anti-Brexit are more worried about there pensions than Europe".

[whalebone]

"Hoping quite a few British immigrants on the Riveira decide to head back to Blighty too"

Oh agentimmo what a reflection upon your racist and unpleasant attitude.

Something that should be consigned to history. I can say quite frankly you represent the worse kind of soul, an utter disgrace.

On other matters Brexit is a dreadful outcome, not only for the UK but for Europe as a whole, the fallout is going to be dramatic, the roller-coaster has just started.

Final thought, if I may, I have seen my two sons educated in France, some of their stories when they came home from school were not enriching. The attitude that prevailed towards people of other faiths and colour were difficult to stomach. Regretfully, this is now playing out in front of the rest of the world. I do not know how France will address these problems as they are deep and institutionalised. I fear for the future, France has a problem and must firstly address thes home grown issues.

[spunko2010]

With Brexit now a reality, I'm hoping the crashing pound will result in less Brits buying in France and bring the market down another notch. Hoping quite a few British immigrants on the Riveira decide to head back to Blighty too

Another question - does anyone think that current laws allowing Brits to have UK Ltd companies setup in UK but live in France (or elsewhere in the EU) paying less taxes will survive Brexit. I've a feeling this might not be such an attactive option 2-3 years down the line.

Could force a few to move back?

Well they better get a move on and move back before the currency situation gets worse.

An article on Mail Online today about buying a (you guessed it) French chateau; no word on costs or condition, but has piqued my interest somewhat. Given the GBP : EUR currency situation they are even cheaper.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3717348/Should-snap-cut-price-chateau-couple-did-swapped-two-bed-East-London-47-rooms-private-forest-moat-swap-pokey-flat-18th-century-castle.html

Am I stupid to be even considering moving to southern France? I could get a huge house with a few gites, and they don't do land in acres but hectares

[Bruce Banner]

Well they better get a move on and move back before the currency situation gets worse.

An article on Mail Online today about buying a (you guessed it) French chateau; no word on costs or condition, but has piqued my interest somewhat. Given the GBP : EUR currency situation they are even cheaper.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3717348/Should-snap-cut-price-chateau-couple-did-swapped-two-bed-East-London-47-rooms-private-forest-moat-swap-pokey-flat-18th-century-castle.html

Am I stupid to be even considering moving to southern France? I could get a huge house with a few gites, and they don't do land in acres but hectares

Can you imagine the work needed to keep hectares of land reasonably tidy? I wouldn't consider anything more than 1/8 acre, and even then it would have to be mostly lawn, preferably AstroTurf, but then I hate gardening.

[Peter Hun]

Am I stupid to be even considering moving to southern France?

Yes.

You have no idea if you will have the right to stay there.

90 day stay visa would be typical, as for US citizens. https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/go/schengen-fact-sheet.html

You could be subjected to any number of taxes and tax rules that would apply to non EU citizens.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Peter Hun

[Agentimmo]

Hoping quite a few British immigrants on the Riveira decide to head back to Blighty too"

Oh agentimmo what a reflection upon your racist and unpleasant attitude.

Something that should be consigned to history. I can say quite frankly you represent the worse kind of soul, an utter disgrace.

Did you read all of my post or just select the little piece that meets your blinkered agenda ?

In case you stumbled into the wrong website, this place is called HousePriceCrash. My (slight) tongue-in-cheek comment was looking at the possibility that a good number of UK residents , currently on the Riviera, would be forced or decide to move back to the UK due to Brexit and sell up. The effect of this would be to reduce or even - fingers crossed - crash the overpriced Riviera housing market. Thus allowing myself and other locals who live there to buy a decent place for our families to live in.

As for this cracker :

Final thought, if I may, I have seen my two sons educated in France, some of their stories when they came home from school were not enriching. The attitude that prevailed towards people of other faiths and colour were difficult to stomach. Regretfully, this is now playing out in front of the rest of the world. I do not know how France will address these problems as they are deep and institutionalised. I fear for the future, France has a problem and must firstly address thes home grown issues.

My brother in law if from the African continent. His teenage son tells me similar stories of racism and bullying he suffered. He's lived in England all of his life, not London. We don't tar all British people as racists , that would be silly wouldn't it?

Btw, show me where I have made a racist comment? Look back at my previous posts over the years then come back to me.

Your faux-outrage is embarrassing.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Agentimmo

[whalebone]

Oh dear that touched a raw nerve.

I live in France, but I am not blinkered to some of the failings of France, at no point have I referred to the UK, with the exception that the vote for Brexit is a disaster, for all sides.

The site is about house prices falling, that is true, and in France regretfully house prices do not seem to hold value. But this is a damned better situation than prevails in the UK, where it is a free for all with the youngest/poorest in society being left to drown. A dreadful greedy country.

What is embarrassing is your arrogance, which only an agentimmo could possibly have in such circumstances.

You, sir are a cad and bounder

[Agentimmo]

LOL!

What is embarrassing is your arrogance, which only an agentimmo could possibly have in such circumstances.

You, sir are a cad and bounder

And you take someone's Forum name literally? Jeez.....again, embarrassing.

You are obviously not a "whalebone".

I suggest, in my native Scots tongue, you are a complete "bawbag".

[davidg]

But this is a damned better situation than prevails in the UK, where it is a free for all with the youngest/poorest in society being left to drown. A dreadful greedy country.

I'm not sure I'd consider 25% youth unemployment a bonus for France but still.

[FrenchLondon]

-Nice is still dropping....as almost every city! 

For those who are looking for property in France - there aren't any websites helping market transparency - my tips:

-engage a layer to buy at "enchère - liquidation judiciaire"(I bought an estate in Provence this way)

-www.bienici.com helps survey the market and as meta website for al, other websites 

-www.castorus.com

A HPC minded guy has created this meta-crawler to oversee prices. You can watch the prices dropping in real time...

Btw, I wonder if there is any similar website for the U.K.? 

 

Best,

Aurelie 

 

[davidg]

On 29/6/2016 at 6:56 PM, Agentimmo said:

 

Another question - does anyone think that current laws allowing Brits to have UK Ltd companies setup in UK but live in France (or elsewhere in the EU) paying less taxes will survive Brexit. I've a feeling this might not be such an attactive option 2-3 years down the line.

 

If you have a UK ltd company then it is a separate legal entity, I don't see how that will be affected. Indeed post Brexit there may be even less sharing of tax information. If you mean computer contractors living in France and paying themselves in dividends and avoiding high French social security charges as one HPCer was boasting about. I already explained why that was not legal and how he was filling in his tax return incorrectly for his foreign dividend earnings. Obviously he wasn't too interested to hear that.

[Phillip in Nice]

Somebody mentioned Nice so I thought I would give a 2017 update. Disclaimer: I am a real estate agent there so feel free to take that perspective into account. Brexit has not had much of an effect so far. Everybody was braced for potential visa-type restrictions and the pound to plummet, but it turned out to be a bit of a damp squib. I personally do not know a single person that has left because of Brexit, or even put their place up for sale. Most foreign sellers are Italians, because of their poor economy and punishing taxes. British buyers are getting mortgage rates of up to under 1% at the moment here, my last client got 1.1%, so that is still pushing sales.

A much bigger effect was the terrorist attack on the Promenade des Anglais. Not really on sales, as people that love Nice will buy there. It's not a cheap place and so not so much an impulse purchase. However buy-to-let owners immediately dropped their prices just in case. Rental bookings stayed as strong as ever, much to the surprise of many renters, but because so many people dropped the price everybody else had to. Yearly profits took around a 20%-25% hit on average. It's too early to tell if it will rebound back to 2015 levels.

Price levels have been stagnant for the past few years. The central areas keep creeping up, areas further out such as north of the train station, have crept slightly down, but we are talking a couple of percent either way. A divide in the property market has appeared. Property that is over-priced and that you see on the web sites, which will sit there for a long time, and anything that is reasonable which gets snapped up immediately (often at asking price). People on AirBnb are making so much money it's crazy.

FrenchLondon posts some helpful hints but for Nice forget about auctions. I follow them here but never seen anything but dross. Any questions, please feel free to post them here. I am more than happy to share with the crowd.

Phillip.

[Alba]

Phillip

What price for about 90 to 100 sq m, minimum 2 bed apartment, in a nice block, with lift, small terrace/not balcony, and parking space or garage within 15 mins comfortable walking distance to the Negresco?

[dugsbody]

On 21/01/2017 at 1:07 PM, Phillip in Nice said:

Somebody mentioned Nice so I thought I would give a 2017 update. Disclaimer: I am a real estate agent there so feel free to take that perspective into account. Brexit has not had much of an effect so far. Everybody was braced for potential visa-type restrictions and the pound to plummet, but it turned out to be a bit of a damp squib. I personally do not know a single person that has left because of Brexit, or even put their place up for sale.

That is pretty much as I'd expect it. Brits who have moved to the continent and in particular a fairly cosmopolitan area such as Nice will be doing so because they like it there and like the European way of life. These people are not going to be rushing back to join their brexit voting brethren in the UK. If anything, I'd expect Brits who were on the verge of going out there to be bringing forward that decision before any cut-off date is announced (as I expect they'd be granted residency after brexit).

For the record, I love Cote d'Azur and it is one of my potential target areas for early retirement when the time comes. How long have you lived out there? 

[Phillip in Nice]

Alba, an apartment with what you are looking for with a balcony will be around €500k. With a terrace it will be around €650k. Of course it also depends on how much work you want to do. And whether a 1st floor terrace is acceptable. A parking or garage will be sold separately, expect it to be €40-50k.

dugsbody, I have lived here for 16 years (since 2000). I have friends that live all over the world, and I enjoy travelling, but it's difficult seeing myself moving anywhere else. Feel free to ask any Nice lifestyle questions.

Phillip.

[Alba]

16 hours ago, dugsbody said:

That is pretty much as I'd expect it. Brits who have moved to the continent and in particular a fairly cosmopolitan area such as Nice will be doing so because they like it there and like the European way of life. These people are not going to be rushing back to join their brexit voting brethren in the UK. If anything, I'd expect Brits who were on the verge of going out there to be bringing forward that decision before any cut-off date is announced (as I expect they'd be granted residency after brexit).

For the record, I love Cote d'Azur and it is one of my potential target areas for early retirement when the time comes. How long have you lived out there? 

Which is your preferred town/city on the Cote d'Azur?  We also like the CDA and have spent so many nice holidays there.

We always found our way back to Cannes, but Nice has upped its game over the years.  There is a nice central park now, much less grafitti and dog poo, and a good tram system.  Nice would probably be our first choice now.

[Phillip in Nice]

Alba, I would say Nice. Villefranche is very pretty, but mostly closed off season. Antibes has a nice port but is over-run with yacht workers. Cannes I find too small, there is just the Croisette and rue d'Antibes that are interesting for me. But this is just my personal opinion. I like Nice because it's a living working city, very cosmopolitan, as well as a great holiday destination. If you want a quiet village lifestyle then Villefranche is nice.

If you buy now expect quite a lot of disruption over the next year, up to 2018. There is massive upheaval going on. In a couple of years you won't recognise the place. Billions are being spent. There is a new underground system, part of the new tram line to the airport. New business parks, conference centres, train station upgrades, etc. At the airport will be a new transport hub linking airport, bus, train and tram. Check out the Nice town hall web site, and click on "Nice 2020" to see ongoing projects. I live next to one of the new underground stations and the road layout at the end of my street changes practically every week. Epic works going on. Though some expats seem more excited that we are going to get a new Ikea :-)

There is no graffiti any more. The right wing mayor has cleaned the whole town up, put police patrols everywhere, and installed cameras all over the city. It's become very safe compared to when I arrived in 2000. However there is still dog poo in the streets. They wash every single street in the early hours of the morning every day, and then the dog owners go out 7-8am to walk their dogs and they crap everywhere (the dogs, not the owners). Very annoying.

Phillip.

[dugsbody]

7 hours ago, Alba said:

Which is your preferred town/city on the Cote d'Azur?  We also like the CDA and have spent so many nice holidays there.

We always found our way back to Cannes, but Nice has upped its game over the years.  There is a nice central park now, much less grafitti and dog poo, and a good tram system.  Nice would probably be our first choice now.

That is tricky. I love the buzz of a city and have enjoyed Nice every time I've been there. But realistically, for the type of property I want to retire to, it is going to be out of my price range if I want to retire in my 10 year target. I do like Antibes but it is absolutely mental in the summer, you can barely move. Villefranche is beautiful, but perhaps a little quiet out of season. I've spent more time inland because I know people that live near Sophia Antipolis and visit frequently. I like the hill villages (eg. Valbonne is nice) and value for money they're better for me, but really as a person I need a bit more vibe. So any suggestions appreciated. Perhaps when the time comes I'll actually feel a bit differently and won't need to be near a busy town.

Phillip, it sounds as though if Nice were my target destination, it might make sense to buy sooner rather than later? Would there be a possibility of buying now and covering mortgage costs by renting out or are the yields too low there?

[Phillip in Nice]

If you want to get it into a lower price range, pick an old place to renovate with a balcony rather than a terrace, and switch the other side of Avenue Jean Medecin to the Carre d'Argent. Between roads Bvd Dubouchage and Rue Gioffredo. You can get one that is liveable (with '70s style bathroom and kitchen, but usable) and around 90-100m² for around €350k-€400k. Then renovate as funds become available. It's a great area, 5 minutes walk to everything. Less expensive than the Negresco area but more convenient. And quieter streets.

If you buy at market rate your target property and want to rent out long-term then no you won't be able to cover your mortgage at 100%, the yield is too low. At 85% mortgage maybe. If you bought a €400,000 apartment, and took out a 85% mortgage (€340,000) over 25 years at 1.1% interest then your monthly repayments would be around €1,300 which you should be able to rent out for long-term for. You will need €93,000 cash however (to also cover Notaire fees of €31,000). Of course if you are lucky in your timing and get a great deal then it will be possible.

You may prefer to get a couple of smaller properties in Nice and let them out as holiday rentals. You will get a larger yield, not just covering the mortgage but an actual income, and a place to stay as much as you want for free until retirement. You will still get the full benefits of capital appreciation when all the major works are finished. When you retire you can sell one to unlock the capital for living and then renovation work of your target purchase, and then live in the second rent free until you find your dream home at a great price. Then sell the second and buy the dream home. It is just a suggestion, though maybe not for you if you cannot bear to spend your holidays in a smaller apartment until then.

Phillip.

[dugsbody]

Thank you.

[felix]

Phillip,

Thanks for all your info so far. I have been reading it with pleasure. I got some 500k Euros reserved for an apartment. I am totally not in a hurry to buy/spend it, as I consider myself too young to live there already, but if prices dropped, I am ready to snatch a bargain.

Most important to me is that I must have sea view and a train station walking distance would be welcome too. I know this does not come cheap, but I am willing to surrender space for it. What may work in my favour is that I hate swimming pools. I do think (Cap d’)Antibes is beautiful, but the road to the Autoroute is so terrible that for a frequent driver like me I decided it to be a no. Valbonne is very convenient, but no sea view. I like Nice, but I do not want to live on any of the boulevards.  One or two streets behind it is ok, but not on it. Do you have any thoughts on the villages along the Corniches? I do like Monaco too, hence a place like Beausoleil comes to my mind. Monaco itself obviously too expensive and I do not need the tax benefits, so living there would be a waste of money anyhow.

[Phillip in Nice]

Hi Felix, bargains are passing by constantly. I see them all the time. Securing one is harder. You cannot say, "That looks interesting, I will come over to view it next month". The good ones go in days. I've been doing this for many years in Nice and I can tell you the best way is simply to book a flight, get a really good broker, and spend a day viewing the best of what is on the market at that time. If you don't find the one you want, book another flight at least 6 weeks later so you get a fresh set of viewings. There is an element of luck involved, but you would not believe how many of my clients get lucky. I sold a number recently less than an hour of it coming onto the market. The worst thing somebody can do is say to an agent "I will come over, but only when you can send me a selection of properties I find interesting."

In Nice, if walking distance is 15 minutes then anywhere in Carre d'Or / Musicians Quarter is near the train station. Within 20 minutes you have Carre d'Argent and Old Town, but there you have the tram line direct also. However if you want sea view then you are restricted to the Promenade des Anglais (and the Port but that is not near the train station), which is expensive and, if you are not on a high floor, noisy. Most of my clients that start off wanting sea view end up going for a much nicer building but a few blocks back. Keep an open mind as it is a big trade-off you get. Blocks with pools are restricted to the hills such as Fabron, Mont Boron and Cimiez, but you need a car to get into town if you live up there. If you want a sea view and easy train access then Villefranche may be better for you than Nice, however as I said above it is very quiet outside of peak season.

It is very strange how Antibes is so inaccessible to the motorway. It is always a dilemma as to whether to take the A8 or go along the sea front. Both equally tortuous routes. I wouldn't really recommend any of the villages along the Corniche as public transport is poor, the buses are so full over summer often you have to wait for a few to go past before you can get on, and there is not so much to do. Only buy there if you fall in love with one of the villages so much you cannot imagine spending your time anywhere else.

Beausoleil is a good investment area to let out to locals that work in Monaco, but not so good for a holiday home. Monaco is fun but you will find, in the long run, quite limited. Also a little pricey. There are reasonably priced places hidden away there, but where's the fun in that if you are in MC! The bars in Nice are full of Monaco residents for a reason... after a while people in Monaco feel like they are in a goldfish bowl.

Feel free to follow up with any more questions about either Nice or the surrounding areas.

Phillip.

[felix]

9 hours ago, Phillip in Nice said:

Keep an open mind as it is a big trade-off you get.

Just to be sure those buildings a few blocks back have no sea view, but are a lot cheaper?
Sorry, but this is not negotiable for me. I had sea view from 2003 till 2014 and now I live somewhere without it. I miss it like hell.

To me Villefranche is in the Corniches already! Or do I miss something?

Quote

The bars in Nice are full of Monaco residents for a reason... after a while people in Monaco feel like they are in a goldfish bowl.

This does not surprise me and makes Nice indeed look attractive. Out of pure curiosity can you mention a few of those bars that have Monaco residents visiting?

What do you think of the La Madeleine area? It is mainly houses in a much higher price category, but sea view is there and with the improving public transportation a train station walking distance may not be so important anymore.

[Phillip in Nice]

Yes the buildings a few blocks back are a lot cheaper. Of course price varies according to which floor, type of view, etc. On the good part of the Promenade, between Old Town and Boulevard Gambetta, with sea view prices are up to €10,000/m². If you go a few blocks back to the Carre d'Or or Quartier Musiciens you can get something of a similar size and finishing for €5,500/m². One reason my clients switch from the Promenade is that the building is either a bourgeois, in which case you have no terrace hence losing one of the main draws of the Prom, or it is a 70's type building where the apartments are long and narrow ("corridor like") which means a nice picture-frame view at the front, but the only other windows at the rear which look onto a less desirable street. To get a nice property on the best part of the Promenade I would recommend having a budget of around €1M. The alternative is to buy on the airport half of the Promenade, for instance near the Radisson Hotel. Here the price drops to €5000-6000/m² with full sea view. They are currently building a new tram line from the airport to the city centre directly behind the Promenade. This will give a boost to the prices, the reasons being (a) the tram will be quieter than the buses it is replacing, (b) the downtrodden Californie will be transformed into a leafy tree-lined boulevard, and (c) buses stop around 8pm making it inconvenient to live there without a car or having to take a taxi, but the new tram line will mean easy access to the city centre all night long.

Villefranche is sandwiched between the middle ("Moyenne") and lower ("Basse") Corniches before they start to diverge. If you are on the border with Mont Boron you can even walk into Nice, though it is a sporty walk back up. It is a 10 minute drive or bus ride from Nice. However my friends that live there do feel a little isolated over winter months.

In Monaco, there is a difference between Monagasque (true locals) and Monaco residents (who are renting residency). Locals tend to hang out after work in the pubs, such as Gerhards in Fontvieille or McCarthys above the Grimaldi forum. The younger residents will go for an apero at a place like Before or Slammers in the main port, and the elder residents in somewhere like the American Bar in the Hotel de Paris. As the evening goes on, the busiest place is probably Sass cafe. Everybody from millionaires to high class escorts pack the place out every night. Zelos, opposite, used to be very popular but the owners converted it to a restaurant and now it's pretty dead. When Jimmyz used to be by Lavotto absolutely everybody used to head there after 1am. Now it has moved to the Casino square it has died off a lot and late night is split between places like Jimmyz, Bhudda Bar, or Twiga.

By La Madeleine, which is generally used to refer to the region going up the hill and I would not class as a high price range, I presume you mean the lower end touching the Promenade. We generally refer to this area as "Magnan". See my comments at the top. I think for €500k, and if you are prepared to do some refreshing, then yes it will be possible to get a nice two bedroom apartment with a terrace with sea view on a reasonable floor (3+) for your budget.

Phillip.