Is It Now The Time For All Good Men To Tell The Party Not To Aid

[0q0]

Some here seem to think the £90bn the government proposes to give to the banks in return for their bits of paper (saying Mortgage Debt £X inflated pounds) will reignite HPI.

I personally think it's just to stop house prices falling to very low lows (something personally I'd favour anyway) and to keep the banks afloat.

But perhaps we should be taking this more seriously, or I should. Perhaps we need to send a message to our MPs who are already concerned (and rightly so) to keep their seats, that we as taxpayers do not wish to hand over £90bn to help property speculators get out of a tight corner nor fuel a new generation of them. We're going to be saddled with enough debt after the NR nationalisation and the amount already handed over in the first stages of the Special Liquidity Scheme (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they've already handed over billions).

MPs need to be told: stop this nonsense now, don't saddle taxpayers with billions of debt, ruin us all, just so some HPI'ers can get out without being burnt. MPs need to hear the message that the £90bn won't save their necks just as the 10p tax u-turn didn't. but what it will do if they don't veto the SLS is make them much less likely to get your vote.

I think MPs need to realise there's a growing voice to stop this madness rather than cheer on continued relentless, reckless propping up a mad pyramid scheme.

MPs : www.writetothem.com

Edited July 28, 2008 by The Last Bear

[abharrisson]

Some here seem to think the £90bn the government proposes to give to the banks in return for their bits of paper (saying Mortgage Debt £X inflated pounds) will reignite HPI.

I personally think it's just to stop house prices falling to very low lows (something personally I'd favour anyway) and to keep the banks afloat.

But perhaps we should be taking this more seriously, or I should. Perhaps we need to send a message to our MPs who are already concerned (and rightly so) to keep their seats, that we as taxpayers do not wish to hand over £90bn to help property speculators get out of a tight corner nor fuel a new generation of them. We're going to be saddled with enough debt after the NR nationalisation and the amount already handed over in the first stages of the Special Liquidity Scheme (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they've already handed over billions).

MPs need to be told: stop this nonsense now, don't saddle taxpayers with billions of debt, ruin us all, just so some HPI'ers can get out without being burnt. MPs need to hear the message that the £90bn won't save their necks just as the 10p tax u-turn didn't. but what it will do if they don't veto the SLS is make them much less likely to get your vote.

I think MPs need to realise there's a growing voice to stop this madness rather than cheer on continued relentless, reckless propping up a mad pyramid scheme.

MPs : www.writetothem.com

Personally if theres a risk of a depression/heavy recession, bank failures , a decade of going backwards economically etc and the likely absolute misery that will cause for huge swathes of the population (quite apart from the value of houses) then I for one would be in favour of the government taking action... I don't think theres anything they can do or indeed would want to do to reignite HPI.... but for instance if their actions meant that the fall was longer and shallower and resulted in a limited undershoot against trend then it be worth it.... after all if a limited undershoot over a prolonged period can be delivered then we have some shot at having a more reasoned market in the future.. if we have a relaitvely short but very sharp correction that pushes the price way below trend then I suspect that the end result will be another boom period... possibly an even bigger one than we have just seen.

[Leonard Hatred]

Printing £90 billion would just crush everybody through inflation. There is no easy way out of this insane HPI.

[abharrisson]

Printing £90 billion would just crush everybody through inflation. There is no easy way out of this insane HPI.

You may well be right and the correction will be painfull whatever is done.... however the govt may decide one form of pain is better than another and who knows they may well be right (although it'd be a first)..... I'd take a case where we had a little higher inflation over a dramatic recession any day.... but I think the inflationary fears of the action may well be overdone if for instance we see some correction in fuel and food and commodities which looks like it may well be begining... we have already "booked" most of that inflationary pain so reductions now will feed through to lower inflation which may well mean the govt can take some sort of fiscal action without meaning inflation will get worse than it is currently... although I would grant that their inflation figures and the real inflation people feel are two very different things currently.

[bricksnmortarhaha]

Thanks for the writetothem link - I have just banged off an email to my MP. I still think we should take to the streets though!

[right_freds_dead]

forget writing to some corrupted menk of an MP. they are probably all sunk to the nuts in BTL anyway.

instead, vote with YOUR funds and move your savings out of sterling. via euros or gold and silver savings.

its your money and they are using it against you. take control.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

On what basis should private debt be converted to public debt?

How is this justified?

[right_freds_dead]

On what basis should private debt be converted to public debt?

How is this justified?

its called democracy you blithering idiot.

cant YOU see the lifestyle brochures reaching out to you.

do cream couches and white walls mean nothing to you.

stop asking questions and start getting into debt NOW.

change your ways you dinosaur.

[0q0]

Thanks for the writetothem link - I have just banged off an email to my MP. I still think we should take to the streets though!

Thanks, I hope lots of others follow.

forget writing to some corrupted menk of an MP. they are probably all sunk to the nuts in BTL anyway.

instead, vote with YOUR funds and move your savings out of sterling. via euros or gold and silver savings.

its your money and they are using it against you. take control.

Well, their MP salary and generous expenses package which some (not all) take full advantage of is worth quite a bit more to them, not to mention the status and directorships that beckon after a decent career in Parliament. Better than a poxy couple of hundred grand profit on some property when you look at the figures in detail. But talking of shifting out of £, where would you say is safe to shift to?

On what basis should private debt be converted to public debt?

How is this justified?

Good question. The basis of "saving their own political @rsez" I would speculate.

[DabHand]

done

[wheresitgone]

Can someone please explain where this money is going to come from? If it has such funds available, why not use them to sort out the pension crisis, job creation to create real wealth, infrustructure, lowering the burden of council tax, reducing fuel tax etc. etc? I am getting heartily sick of a government that doesn't have the money for tax cuts but suddenly can find £90billion from somewhere.

[R K]

I'm personally still sceptical about the potential effect on inflation.

Merv says the SLS was not inflationary. He knows more than I do and I believe him.

So long as Merv is running the show I'm reasonably comfortable with it. He hasn't slashed interest rates to the lenders like Ben. He in enforcing haircuts and allowed NRK to fail. I am still of the belief (I know most don't believe this, and I understand that) that the NRK bailout won't prove inflationary and the taxpaeyer won't lose or at least won't lose much in the longer run.

If Brown/Darling/Balls/Flint were to be dolling out cash then I would be more worried, but so far they're not. I'm also not too enamoured at the prospect of systemic banking failures and a depression.

[abharrisson]

I'm personally still sceptical about the potential effect on inflation.

Merv says the SLS was not inflationary. He knows more than I do and I believe him.

So long as Merv is running the show I'm reasonably comfortable with it. He hasn't slashed interest rates to the lenders like Ben. He in enforcing haircuts and allowed NRK to fail. I am still of the belief (I know most don't believe this, and I understand that) that the NRK bailout won't prove inflationary and the taxpaeyer won't lose or at least won't lose much in the longer run.

If Brown/Darling/Balls/Flint were to be dolling out cash then I would be more worried, but so far they're not. I'm also not too enamoured at the prospect of systemic banking failures and a depression.

I'd agree with most of that, although I am not as familiar with Merv as you are so obviously can't comment.... I don't think the taxpayer will lose on NR, I don't think they'll lose on the SLS and I don't think either will have much effect on inflation even if the SLS goes up higher.

Beware as you say politicians looking to buy the elctorate with tax cuts, giveaways , enahnced expenditure etc etc.... I hope Brown isn't forced into it through his death wriggles... if he is ousted before a general election then his successor will almost certainly try and shall we say "stimualte" things.

[oracle]

if he is ousted before a general election then his successor will almost certainly try and shall we say "stimualte" things.

what,they are going to appoint the cast of playboy TV as the new cabinet??

....GET IN!!!

You can just see the "make love not war" ticket on this one can't you!!

.....things can only get better!!!!

Edited July 28, 2008 by oracle

[FernandoMorientes]

I think the government would love reignite HPI, brown has publicly admitted as much 'getting on with the job, getting the housing market moving' (caveat to this he didn't say up ot down?).

However that aside as HPI has been the fundamental source of 'the miracle economy' it has to be assumed that Nu Labour are completely bereft of any other ideas of how to stimulate the economy therefore I am of he opinion that this delusional fiasco of an idea is simply another continuation of ignoring the inevitable recession that should have been left to occur post 9/11.

The absurd actions post 9/11 have left us with a deadly hangover than a mere headache another £90 billion down the drain and I fear there may be nothing left to salvage, you clearly have more faith than I.

Personally if theres a risk of a depression/heavy recession, bank failures , a decade of going backwards economically etc and the likely absolute misery that will cause for huge swathes of the population (quite apart from the value of houses) then I for one would be in favour of the government taking action... I don't think theres anything they can do or indeed would want to do to reignite HPI.... but for instance if their actions meant that the fall was longer and shallower and resulted in a limited undershoot against trend then it be worth it.... after all if a limited undershoot over a prolonged period can be delivered then we have some shot at having a more reasoned market in the future.. if we have a relaitvely short but very sharp correction that pushes the price way below trend then I suspect that the end result will be another boom period... possibly an even bigger one than we have just seen.

[jaydee]

I think the government would love reignite HPI, brown has publicly admitted as much 'getting on with the job, getting the housing market moving' (caveat to this he didn't say up ot down?).

However that aside as HPI has been the fundamental source of 'the miracle economy' it has to be assumed that Nu Labour are completely bereft of any other ideas of how to stimulate the economy therefore I am of he opinion that this delusional fiasco of an idea is simply another continuation of ignoring the inevitable recession that should have been left to occur post 9/11.

The absurd actions post 9/11 have left us with a deadly hangover than a mere headache another £90 billion down the drain and I fear there may be nothing left to salvage, you clearly have more faith than I.

Absolutely agree - completely out of any ideas or initiatives. New labour has had it's bull run based on the smoke and mirrors of property ownership and debt. It seems to me that this proposed 90 billion gift from us to the banks is the equivalent of a slush fund - to ensure the next election is won - and - as the majority of the population is in debt it should work out OK for them - especially if they remain employed. The solvent savers are being quietly blitzed again with inflation - like they were in the seventies - and with the pound down 15% against the euro the opportunity to switch to that currency has been missed - perhaps - perversely - the dollar may be worth while.

Our glorious VI government led us up the HPI/debt garden path - IMO this was a conscious act - even planned. They are more culpable than even the sleazy mortgage brokers/lenders - as they were after all, supposed to be 'looking after things'. The "getting on with the job" - and "unprecedented external events" responses are enough to make your hair stand on end. The recent award of a multi billion pound contract to build aircraft carriers for the MOD amounts to a dose of public spending in an attempt to moderate a rise in unemployment - the sort of thing governments do when things are getting rough. Haven't heard the B o E or our great leaders mention moral hazard for some time now - guess we're way past such niceties.