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fiddlethefigures

Who Killed The Electric Car ?

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Who Killed the Electric Car?

It was among the fastest, most efficient production cars ever built. It ran on electricity, produced no emissions and catapulted American technology to the forefront of the automotive industry. The lucky few who drove it never wanted to give it up. So why did General Motors crush its fleet of EV1 electric vehicles in the Arizona desert?

when watching this movie you know that alot of enviromental issues the politicians are concerned with today could have been avoided if this project was given the full backing it truly deserved.

http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?q=wh...mp;sitesearch=#

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Maybe someone realised you charge the thing by burning coal in a powerstation?

There are more enviromental ways of producing electric than coal power stations but again they have been squashed by the very powerful oil companies who would lose alot of revenue if the masses were allowed to use these clean renewable energies.

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There are more enviromental ways of producing electric than coal power stations but again they have been squashed by the very powerful oil companies who would lose alot of revenue if the masses were allowed to use these clean renewable energies.

Sure there are lots of ways, just that as a country we dont have any, so kind of pointless buying an electric car.

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There are more enviromental ways of producing electric than coal power stations ...

Too right, like the miraculous gift of nuclear power. A shame that a few lefties have temporarily won that argument ...

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I'd guess it was heavily subsidised so was never viable for production. If EV's were really practical someone else would be making a killing selling them. Aren't GM making the Volt?

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I'd guess it was heavily subsidised so was never viable for production. If EV's were really practical someone else would be making a killing selling them. Aren't GM making the Volt?

I'm pretty convinced that all but one problem is now resolved. The problem is battery technology.

I'm encouraged by recent developments with relation to 'solid-state' batteries... there are several hints about ceramic rechargeable battery alternatives and other innovative techniques involving atomic level techniques to provide extremely high capacity capacitors. If one of these technologies advances to being viable for mass production, electric vehicles will explode onto the market.

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I'm pretty convinced that all but one problem is now resolved. The problem is battery technology.

I'm encouraged by recent developments with relation to 'solid-state' batteries... there are several hints about ceramic rechargeable battery alternatives and other innovative techniques involving atomic level techniques to provide extremely high capacity capacitors. If one of these technologies advances to being viable for mass production, electric vehicles will explode onto the market.

I think this more or less sums up the situation. I work wit a couple of guys who are more or less right at the forefront of electric vehicle development in the UK and they've got an electric car with a range of around 100 miles, that they've shown to be slightly less efficient than a small diesel car over a particular duty cycle. The vehicle uses a lead acid battery. Getting a decent battery in is the next step.

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frozen_out.

Forefront, lead acid?

Shudder.

Sorry I'm not been clear. They're at the forefront of hydrogen/fuel cell technology. Their system is currently rigged up to a pretty basic lead acid battery and options for replacing this with the latest battery technology are currently under review. As a product i think they've got a goer, the obvious practical issue being they've only got one filling station :lol:

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I think this more or less sums up the situation. I work wit a couple of guys who are more or less right at the forefront of electric vehicle development in the UK and they've got an electric car with a range of around 100 miles, that they've shown to be slightly less efficient than a small diesel car over a particular duty cycle. The vehicle uses a lead acid battery. Getting a decent battery in is the next step.

Lithium-Ion is significantly in advance of lead-acid... but even this, in my opinion, is not up to the task.

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Sorry I'm not been clear. They're at the forefront of hydrogen/fuel cell technology. Their system is currently rigged up to a pretty basic lead acid battery and options for replacing this with the latest battery technology are currently under review. As a product i think they've got a goer, the obvious practical issue being they've only got one filling station :lol:

The recharging (in your case hydrogen supply) is the blocker. The technology isn't.

I see hydrogen fuel cells as pretty pointless. Battery technology is improving at quite a pace, the manufacturers of specialist cells are turning over larger sums and with that will come better energy densities. One or two major manufacturers of hub motors and a few suppliers of good battery systems and there is very little more to add to these vehicles - the technology is pretty easy - even a smattering modern day motor drive microcontrollers would do the job together with some high power switching electronics.

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I'm pretty convinced that all but one problem is now resolved. The problem is battery technology.

Who'd of thunk it?

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Lithium-Ion is significantly in advance of lead-acid... but even this, in my opinion, is not up to the task.

I don't know what they're thinking of using, I'll ask them tomorrow. Last time I saw one of them present I think it was Li-ion that was mentioned. Don't know if they've moved on since then. I expect so.

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The recharging (in your case hydrogen supply) is the blocker. The technology isn't.

I see hydrogen fuel cells as pretty pointless. Battery technology is improving at quite a pace, the manufacturers of specialist cells are turning over larger sums and with that will come better energy densities. One or two major manufacturers of hub motors and a few suppliers of good battery systems and there is very little more to add to these vehicles - the technology is pretty easy - even a smattering modern day motor drive microcontrollers would do the job together with some high power switching electronics.

Why do you see hydrogen cells as pointless? Surely a mobile energy source for recharging will extend the range and really make these cars viable?

Hydrogen is as good a candidate as we have for the mobile source right now (as far as I know, although I'll be the first to admit this ain't my particular field). What are the alternatives?

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frozen_out

Most likely LiFePO4.

So what about the recharging? Do you think they'll have enough range and charge fast enough for petrol stations to be turned into electric stations, say?

They certainly sound impressive.

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So what about the recharging? Do you think they'll have enough range and charge fast enough for petrol stations to be turned into electric stations, say?

They certainly sound impressive.

Current technology is not going to provide the same refill time as petrol - the small station/pump layout is unsuitable - you want distributed charging - parking spaces/car parks at motorway service stations with charging points - 10-15 minutes of charging say when you are out and about. No reason why you couldn't have slower charge points running off domestic locations for overnight charging.

Part way through that video - very interesting the push for fuel cells looks almost entirely linked to the energy industry wishing to keep a hold on on the prime mover of cars - a fuel that goes in a tank, electricity is far too easy to distribute in comparison, way easy compared to hydrogen, almost anybody could get in on the game by getting a three-phase industrial supply installed.

Edit - actually thinking about it with the risk of running of juice being a major blocker to electric car use what you really want is the ability to rapidly roll out thousands of discrete charging points all over the country. Set up a company installing charging points to any anywhere that has a 3 phase supply together with a card payment system - probably about a day to say install 2/3 points at each location. Charge a premium price for the charge and a kick-back to the owner who has had the charing station installed at their premises together with alloted parking bays. The premium price could be quite high, but it would still be a heck of a lot cheaper than a tow! The businesses could use the charging points themselves - a heck of a lot of vans never go more than 10/20 miles from base, any company running that sort of transport would see big reductions in lifetime costs. The number of things to go wrong on an electric vehicle means that maintenance should be extremely cheap bar the battery pack replacement. Have these locations downloadable as POI's as they come on stream and your satnav can take you straigh to the nearest charging point - easy.

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Just got back from the motor show and was talking to a guy from GM about fuel cell vehicles. they had the third generation there ran off compressed hydrogen in carbon fibre fuel tanks... regenerative brakings ... very low platinum content etc...

by the way plenty of Elevctric vehicles at the motor show... the new wave nicecarcompany and plenty others... by the way milk floats have been electric for ages... back when people had milkman come around...

by the way personally I think the future fuel is ammonia. its cheap widly used. and well produced... and can easily be reformed or electrolysed into hydrogen....

Ithink the problem with evs the 'well to wheel' efficency will be lower than other methods and long charge times. make it impractical..

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Current technology is not going to provide the same refill time as petrol - the small station/pump layout is unsuitable - you want distributed charging - parking spaces/car parks at motorway service stations with charging points - 10-15 minutes of charging say when you are out and about. No reason why you couldn't have slower charge points running off domestic locations for overnight charging.

Part way through that video - very interesting the push for fuel cells looks almost entirely linked to the energy industry wishing to keep a hold on on the prime mover of cars - a fuel that goes in a tank, electricity is far too easy to distribute in comparison, way easy compared to hydrogen, almost anybody could get in on the game by getting a three-phase industrial supply installed.

Which video?

I think I'd go along with the theory that the energy industry would push a particular system tht would allow it to keep hold of production and distribution. It would make perfect sense really.

How long would it be before something like this could be commercially viable?

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Which video?

I think I'd go along with the theory that the energy industry would push a particular system tht would allow it to keep hold of production and distribution. It would make perfect sense really.

How long would it be before something like this could be commercially viable?

Ah - see thread start and the video linked from there.

Don't see why you couldn't put together a charging station/payment point system that could easily be installed (bit of armoured cable to the supply and some groundworks) in two years and a few people with the right knowledge. Would the car companies produce cars with a standardized plug though?! :lol:

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Ah - see thread start and the video linked from there.

Don't see why you couldn't put together a charging station/payment point system that could easily be installed (bit of armoured cable to the supply and some groundworks) in two years and a few people with the right knowledge. Would the car companies produce cars with a standardized plug though?! :lol:

It sounds like it has stupendous potential. What's the catch?

Interesting point on the standardised plug. Also I expect you might have issues driving abroad?

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Just got back from the motor show and was talking to a guy from GM about fuel cell vehicles. they had the third generation there ran off compressed hydrogen in carbon fibre fuel tanks... regenerative brakings ... very low platinum content etc...

by the way plenty of Elevctric vehicles at the motor show... the new wave nicecarcompany and plenty others... by the way milk floats have been electric for ages... back when people had milkman come around...

by the way personally I think the future fuel is ammonia. its cheap widly used. and well produced... and can easily be reformed or electrolysed into hydrogen....

Ammonia is alreay being used : Google "stranded wind". These guys produce ammonia from non-grid connected wind turbines, reckon it can be used in a normal diesel engine if a little oil is added to get ignition.

The 60 MW hydro station at Vemork, Norway provided most of Europe's ammonia fertilizer, from 1911 onwards to the '30s, by electrolysis of water, to hydrogen, and then synthesis from hydrogen plus air to ammonia. So "green" ammonia could be produced in a similar fashion from renewable energy generation schemes. (thanks wikipedia)

My other great hope is the aluminium-air fuel cell. Enormous energy density, I have seen estimates of up to 75x that of Lithium-Ion batteries.

"•Aluminium has been a sought-after accumulator of energy for over 50 years, because of its high stored energy density, its light weight and its recyclability. The original Zaromb cell (1960) stored 15 times the energy of a comparable lead-acid battery.

•Aluminium as a solid fuel can be safely stored, until needed, for an unlimited amount of time. No pressurised or combustible components are required.

•Aluminium is an abundant and fully recyclable metal. All of the aluminium is easily recovered from the aluminium hydroxide waste of the cell, using only a fraction of the energy required for the original bauxite process. If we use only recycled aluminium, it is actually cheaper than using fossil fuels.

"

http://www.metalectrique.com/technology.html

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It sounds like it has stupendous potential. What's the catch?

Interesting point on the standardised plug. Also I expect you might have issues driving abroad?

The catch is catch 22 - you have to show you have the full intention to roll out thousands of charging points and spend the money BEFORE there is enough demand and usage to make a profit out of it YOY. You'd be looking at payback over say maybe 5-10 years+. You could still charge quite high prices for the service and good kickbacks to the owners of the premises as it would be like a get you home or get you about service for to encourage people that want an electric car for which home charging would be find for 95% of the time - that the other 5% would be expensivebut catered for and they could go electric and know that they could still get around for much larger distances - that is a key stumbling point for electric cars (together with car purchase price at low volumes).

Still should be a damn site easier and cheaper than putting in a hydrogen supply network across the country - and where is all the hydrogen going to come from quickly.

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  • 399 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

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