Gel Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 As title, much worse than expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrink Proof Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Incredible. There really were that many idiots.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbga9pgf Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 nice Nice Was short HBOS in IG index this morning... just netted 20 quid.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnlyMe Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) HBOS advertising their mortgages a lot on the Radio. I wonder how far that £4bn will go? Not the same when there aren't idiots around buying your mortgage effluent. Edited July 21, 2008 by OnlyMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realistbear Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/080721/214/i3izg.html Monday July 21, 09:16 AM London open: HBOS sours mood | | | LONDON (ShareCast) - London has opened lower with sentiment soured by HBOS (LSE: HBOS.L - news) 's rights issue flop, which is dragging (Advertisement) on all the financials. Mortgage bank HBOS received acceptances for just 8.29% of the shares on offer in its right issue leaving 1.375bn for the underwriters to find a home for, slightly more than predicted. The shares are nearly 4% down. The gig is up folks. The banks are, as I said last year, insolvent. Borassic. Skint. The public are not going to invest in any more Titanics. What next? A bailout from the Fed-IMF I would suspect. Things are about to get very ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGUID Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Things are about to get ugly? Well they shouldn't be, because historically banks make most of their writedowns at the end of a recession, not the beginning. Oh dear . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 They will continue to be propped up by the bank of England, just like all the other banks. So the taxpayer will continue to subsidise them until such time they can stand on their own two feet and after that they will say thanks very much and pay some large bonuses and dividends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realistbear Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) They will continue to be propped up by the bank of England, just like all the other banks. So the taxpayer will continue to subsidise them until such time they can stand on their own two feet and after that they will say thanks very much and pay some large bonuses and dividends. What if there is going to be 30% less taxpayers to prop them up? What if we are headed into a depression? We may be seeing not the end of a cycle but and end of a paradigm that began in the late 18th Century with the idea that debt could be managed and shown as an assett rather than a liability? I think we may be in a structural collapse not just a cyclical correction. I also think this is why Ben may be allowing inflation to runs its course because Japanese-style deflation lurks around the corner. The US are at least out of denial: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080721/paulson_economy.html Edited July 21, 2008 by Realistbear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 What if there is going to be 30% less taxpayers to prop them up?What if we are headed into a depression? We may be seeing not the end of a cycle but and end of a paradigm that began in the late 18th Century with the idea that debt could be managed and shown as an assett rather than a liability? I think we may be in a structural collapse not just a cyclical correction. I also think this is why Ben may be allowing inflation to runs its course because Japanese-style deflation lurks around the corner. The US are at least out of denial: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080721/paulson_economy.html I am no economist, but I would anticipate the government would essentially print more money to loan the banks to keep them going. They have allowed the country to become far too dependent on the big banks. If HBOS went under, the knock on effect for the UK economy would be disasterous, which is why it will be seen to be cheaper to prop them up than clear up the mess of one or more going under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Yogi Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) I am no economist, but I would anticipate the government would essentially print more money to loan the banks to keep them going. They have allowed the country to become far too dependent on the big banks. If HBOS went under, the knock on effect for the UK economy would be disasterous, which is why it will be seen to be cheaper to prop them up than clear up the mess of one or more going under. We are forever being told that for a major bank to go bust would be a catastrophe for the economy, but I still don't see it. There was a long thread about it last week, but the question still remained unanswered. Why not just let insolvent banks go under? In my view it's worth a try - everything's fooked anyway! Edited July 21, 2008 by Mr Yogi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzel Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 We are forever being told that for a major bank to go bust would be a catastrophe for the economy, but I still don't see it.There was a long thread about it last week, but the question still remained unanswered. Why not just let insolvent banks go under? In my view it's worth a try - everything's fooked anyway! How would it not be a disaster? Bank goes under, owes millions to other banks which may also go under. Companies that bank with them lose millions and cant pay staff or supliers, depositors lose millions and riot on the streets. No one trusts banks anymore (which they shouldn't have in the first place) and withdraw money from all the other banks which turns them insolvent. I think this route would be much uglier than the alternatives, although thats not to say it isn't what they deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 How would it not be a disaster? Bank goes under, owes millions to other banks which may also go under. Companies that bank with them lose millions and cant pay staff or supliers, depositors lose millions and riot on the streets. No one trusts banks anymore (which they shouldn't have in the first place) and withdraw money from all the other banks which turns them insolvent. I think this route would be much uglier than the alternatives, although thats not to say it isn't what they deserve. Yep a nightmare. All banks closed, fiat currency vanished, no taxes and all debts cancelled, however would we cope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieChuck Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 How would it not be a disaster? Bank goes under, owes millions to other banks which may also go under. Companies that bank with them lose millions and cant pay staff or supliers, depositors lose millions and riot on the streets. No one trusts banks anymore (which they shouldn't have in the first place) and withdraw money from all the other banks which turns them insolvent. I think this route would be much uglier than the alternatives, although thats not to say it isn't what they deserve. I agree they do deserve it, but the consequences would be catastrophic. We were always bought up to believe "your money's safe in a bank", ok so the returns were never brilliant, but there was no risk to your money. Allowing a large bank to go bust would ruin people's confidence in banking, leading to a big spiral, ending eventually in people using cash and even going back to bartering, the government and the taxman will lose out here. This society now relies on electronic banking, as printers are a lot higher quality and cheaper, creating fraudulant bank notes would be a lot easier if people went back to cash. The governments have to maintain the current system, they have no option, for them to survive the have to keep the charade going. They only thing they can do is lend the banks enough to keep them liquid until they have made enough profits to write off the bad debt they carry. This may take years, with drip feeding the losses out. The other alternative doesn't bear thinking about. Hbos' rights issue failure is not overly bad news, the losers appear to be investment banks who for years have made vast profits from rights issues and placements in the knowledge that 1 in 100 of them might fail. Now one has failed. What it probably does mean is that in order to bail themselves out in the coming years, banks are going to have to make more profit to pay off their losses instead of issuing shares or tapping up SWF's. This would appear to be bad news for anyone that borrows money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expatowner Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 however would we cope! Gold ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copydude Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (Advertisement) 'One of the most disastrous rights issues in corporate history' Your Last Chance To Own HBOS Collector's Edition Shares These unique unsold shares represent a defining moment in financial history and are a wonderful commemorative of the day the City went under. Easily framed for the wall or sideboard, these beautifully printed shares are quite worthless in any other form. Each one is authentically countersigned by the three pillars of prudence, Alistair Darling, Mervyn King and Gordon Brown. But hurry! This is a strictly limited edition of only 3.6bn! 275p & p&p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Gold ? ****** gold! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (Advertisement) 'One of the most disastrous rights issues in corporate history' Your Last Chance To Own HBOS Collector's Edition Shares These unique unsold shares represent a defining moment in financial history and are a wonderful commemorative of the day the City went under. Easily framed for the wall or sideboard, these beautifully printed shares are quite worthless in any other form. Each one is authentically countersigned by the three pillars of prudence, Alistair Darling, Mervyn King and Gordon Brown. But hurry! This is a strictly limited edition of only 3.6bn! 275p & p&p Awesome. i'll put it next to my 143 ct diamante Dambusters Elvis Clock of Tutenkhamun, signed by Fred West. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) Why would the BoE prop this issue? Theyve already been undewritten by the City... Morgan Stanley and Dresdner Kleinwort. Its them wots gotta shell out!. Edited July 21, 2008 by Bloo Loo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huw Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 They only thing they can do is lend the banks enough to keep them liquid until they have made enough profits to write off the bad debt they carry. Or they could nationalise them, wiping out the shareholders. Just as with a bail-out, the system continues to function and the risk passes to the taxpayer -- but so does the ownership of the bank and any future value therein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieChuck Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Or they could nationalise them, wiping out the shareholders.Just as with a bail-out, the system continues to function and the risk passes to the taxpayer -- but so does the ownership of the bank and any future value therein. I don't disagree with what you have said. Any future benefit should go to the taxpayer, as payment for the risk taken. But, nationalisation brings back again the worry of bank failure, and the potential panic and lack of confidence that causes, whereas a covert bailout is, well hidden. In order to keep this charade going, I think they will do it covertly, albeit at our future expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expatowner Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 H B O S Rights Issue A "flop", What next for the ailing bank? If someone would send me the e-mail address for HBOS I could forward them the odd e-mail that slips through my filter for viagra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash4781 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Is 4bn is enough ? Well it has to be because there's no chance they'll be trying this again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambino Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Is 4bn is enough ?Well it has to be because there's no chance they'll be trying this again. Dont know about rights issue its a right **** up by HBOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Yogi Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Or they could nationalise them, wiping out the shareholders. Am I alone in suspecting that Gordon Brown may just after all be an evil genius, sitting in his study stroking a white cat? He's nationalised Northern Rock - who's betting against another bank being nationalised before the end of the year? By the time of the next election he could have siezed the lot! The daft thing is it would probably win him the next election! Blame the banks - then grab 'em! Or maybe he's just a fookin' idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 The 8% who took up the offer must be brain-dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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