Landlord Being Repossesed. Can I Get Out Of Ast?

[markyh]

Got a letter from my LL bank on friday for my LL stating she was 3 months in arrears and they where starting repossesion proceedings within 7 days.

Our AST runs out on 27/8/08 but we really didn't want to go for another six months because my wife starts a new job on the 1st sept and our daughter starts a new school on the 9th sept, so I dont want to put them through the stress of moving just before they make these big changes.

Out LA is useless and despite now knowing the LL position, and not being able to contact her for 2 months about our AST renewal, they insist we must see out our AST, or take a new property while still paying the rent on the current one too!

I was curious if there are any known legal grounds for making an AST invalid if the LL is being repossed. If we get out I want to get out now in july during the AST, or in October after it has gone periodic, without getting chucked out by the bank in between.

The LA assured me that the LL had a BTL mortgage when we took the AST on, but could never provide proof I requested. As all the post, mortgage, insurance etc still comes to the rental property and not to the LL living address I am convinced she has an OO mortgage.

I have contacted the banks litigation team but as it is not our house they will not give any details as to if it is OO or BTL mortgage and just put a note of my name and phone number / brief comments on the "file".

As they LL has disappeared as far as the bank and LA are concerned for now, I will get all the post about this so I can see what is going on. But I really want to get out of the AST remaining now and into another property. The worst thing for us would be 7 days notice to quit by the bank at the end of August.

Any help?

M

[markyh]

OK, CAB are impossible to get hold of by phone, too many debted chavs on the line i guess. Talked to the local council housing officer who attends courts for repossesions.

Basically we are it a crap position, we are tied to pay the rent by the AST until it expires, and they thought that if the LL doesn't pay up the arrears it will be about the end of August that the court will grant the bank repossesion if they start action this friday after their 7 day notice to the LL.

So we have to basically hope they find the LL and they cough up or wait until the court issues notice to reposses for the AST to be invalid!!

How crap is that! Anyone with experience on how long repossesion takes in the current climate assuming the LL just wont talk to the bank?

Also, If we attend court with a sobbing 2 year old will the court grant any extention to us tennents above the AST end date, like the statatory 2 months notice, if the rent is paid directly to the bank. This would give us until end of October which would be ideal.

M

[Te Mata]

You may be able to sue LA if mortgage turnsout to be OO.

Maybe a word to them along these lines might make them more forthcoming with details.

[DemolitionRed]

It sounds like you just need to give notice to quit for the 27th August.

Your landlord is about to lose his property and on top of that, especially if all bank letters are still coming to your address, you may well end up with the bailiffs on your door.

No point trying to sue someone who obviously has no money.

Your letting agent has to give you the landlords details if you ask for them but if they can't contact him/her then you probably wont have much luck either.

The process of RP can happen fairly quickly but even if it took ages, would you really want to be stuck in the middle of that?

[Matt Henson]

OK, CAB are impossible to get hold of by phone, too many debted chavs on the line i guess. Talked to the local council housing officer who attends courts for repossesions.

Basically we are it a crap position, we are tied to pay the rent by the AST until it expires, and they thought that if the LL doesn't pay up the arrears it will be about the end of August that the court will grant the bank repossesion if they start action this friday after their 7 day notice to the LL.

So we have to basically hope they find the LL and they cough up or wait until the court issues notice to reposses for the AST to be invalid!!

How crap is that! Anyone with experience on how long repossesion takes in the current climate assuming the LL just wont talk to the bank?

Also, If we attend court with a sobbing 2 year old will the court grant any extention to us tennents above the AST end date, like the statatory 2 months notice, if the rent is paid directly to the bank. This would give us until end of October which would be ideal.

M

The is court required to issue an eviction notice if the mortgage company asks for hearing bases on ground 3 of the 1988 Housing Act, if this happen you must make sure you are kept informed of progress as the judge has some leniency on how long they have to claim posession, with no representation from you that could be as little as 7 days or up to 21 days but it is not likely to be any more

How much is your deposit? is it in the TDS scheme? if not stop paying rent, if it is pay your rent week by week otherwise you could pay on the 1st and be evecited on the 7th and have little chance of getting the difference back.

You must inform the LA of your intentions and they must tell you (provided you ask them in writing) if there are any legal action about to take place, if they don't tell you and there is, you could claim against them if you lose money

Edited July 15, 2008 by Matt Henson

[DrGUID]

Blimey you are being far to nice to people. Please tell me you've stopped paying the rent!

This happened to me. I stopped paying rent and moved out. Write to the repossession hearing judge and attend the hearing though to state your case.

My reposession took months, but if the LL doesn't have a BTL mortgage you can theoretically be out on your ear.

Suing LA + LL's in these cases is IMHO a waste of time.

[renterbob]

Blimey you are being far to nice to people. Please tell me you've stopped paying the rent!

This happened to me. I stopped paying rent and moved out. Write to the repossession hearing judge and attend the hearing though to state your case.

My reposession took months, but if the LL doesn't have a BTL mortgage you can theoretically be out on your ear.

Suing LA + LL's in these cases is IMHO a waste of time.

Perfect advice.

Stop payment and leave. There are plenty of empty properties to let everywhere....get busy renty-gazundering.

[roger196]

"Got a letter from my LL bank on friday for my LL stating she was 3 months in arrears and they where starting repossesion proceedings within 7 days.

Our AST runs out on 27/8/08..."

Depending on how much aggro you want to create, consider the following. However, it may be better to go quietly, rather than risk the loss of time and money.

1 IMO argue in court that the repossession proceedings are an arbitary seizure of property contrary to the European Convention of Human Rights.

2 If the bank are saying that the mortgage was not BTL, then you should consider reporting the LL to the police for obtaining money by false pretences. If you can demonstrate that the bank knew or by reasonable enquiry could have found this out, there may be a case for aiding and abetting. You may find the bank litigation team are more forthcoming / willing to negotiate, if you start suggesting going down this route. Suggest to the bank that they may be in possession of your money ( if your rent was used to pay the mortgage) falsely obtained and that you would like it back. You might like to read up on the proceeds of crime and the money laundering regulations.

3 Are there any criminal lawyers who can give their opinion.

[DemolitionRed]

"Got a letter from my LL bank on friday for my LL stating she was 3 months in arrears and they where starting repossesion proceedings within 7 days.

Our AST runs out on 27/8/08..."

Depending on how much aggro you want to create, consider the following. However, it may be better to go quietly, rather than risk the loss of time and money.

1 IMO argue in court that the repossession proceedings are an arbitary seizure of property contrary to the European Convention of Human Rights.

2 If the bank are saying that the mortgage was not BTL, then you should consider reporting the LL to the police for obtaining money by false pretences. If you can demonstrate that the bank knew or by reasonable enquiry could have found this out, there may be a case for aiding and abetting. You may find the bank litigation team are more forthcoming / willing to negotiate, if you start suggesting going down this route. Suggest to the bank that they may be in possession of your money ( if your rent was used to pay the mortgage) falsely obtained and that you would like it back. You might like to read up on the proceeds of crime and the money laundering regulations.

3 Are there any criminal lawyers who can give their opinion.

provided a tenancy was granted after 1988 the tenant will have no right to remain in the property, once he has been given two months notice to quit.

A mortgagor (the person that obtains the mortgage) is entitled to rent out his property unless the mortgage deeds say otherwise. If there is no prohibition on letting within the mortgage deed, then the tenancy is binding on the mortgagee (ie the bank). If the bank obtains possession against the LL they are bound by the terms of the lease and can only get the tenant out if the LL could have done so. In other words, if the LL can terminate the tenancy, then the bank can do the same.

The other situation is where the mortgage deed prohibits letting. In those circumstances, if the bank obtains a possession order against the LL, the tenant becomes a trespasser against the bank and the bank is within its right to treat him as such. In such a case the tenant can then sue the LL for breach of the implied covenant of 'quiet enjoyment'. However, any monetary judgement against the LL may prove to be very difficult to enforce.

Ratification.

If the bank knows that a the property is being let out in breach of the mortgage agreement and collects the mortgage money without saying anything, the bank may well be held by a court to have accepted the letting and be held by its terms.

Fraud

It is not illegal to rent out your property. The fact that you have promised someone that you won’t do that does not make the tenancy unlawful. Subject to the following there can be no fraud unless the LL has specifically told the tenant that he has the banks permission to let.

'Human Rights'

The House of Lords has ruled that there are no human rights issues involved if a tenant is lawfully evicted. This can only be altered by the Court of Human Rights in Strasburg.

Edited July 19, 2008 by DemolitionRed

[renterbob]

provided a tenancy was granted after 1988 the tenant will have no right to remain in the property, once he has been given two months notice to quit.

A mortgagor (the person that obtains the mortgage) is entitled to rent out his property unless the mortgage deeds say otherwise. If there is no prohibition on letting within the mortgage deed, then the tenancy is binding on the mortgagee (ie the bank). If the bank obtains possession against the LL they are bound by the terms of the lease and can only get the tenant out if the LL could have done so. In other words, if the LL can terminate the tenancy, then the bank can do the same.

The other situation is where the mortgage deed prohibits letting. In those circumstances, if the bank obtains a possession order against the LL, the tenant becomes a trespasser against the bank and the bank is within its right to treat him as such. In such a case the tenant can then sue the LL for breach of the implied covenant of 'quiet enjoyment'. However, any monetary judgement against the LL may prove to be very difficult to enforce.

Ratification.

If the bank knows that a the property is being let out in breach of the mortgage agreement and collects the mortgage money without saying anything, the bank may well be held by a court to have accepted the letting and be held by its terms.

Fraud

It is not illegal to rent out your property. The fact that you have promised someone that you won’t do that does not make the tenancy unlawful. Subject to the following there can be no fraud unless the LL has specifically told the tenant that he has the banks permission to let.

'Human Rights'

The House of Lords has ruled that there are no human rights issues involved if a tenant is lawfully evicted. This can only be altered by the Court of Human Rights in Strasburg.

Whoooaaaahhhh!

Demo red this is way too complicated for the average renter. I mean, if you and yours wanted a pregnancy test you'd go out and buy the kit and do it. You wouldn't be expected to develop the antibodies/detection system in the local medical school for the next ten years and then maybe use the kit. This is what lawyers want the public to do.

I once gave a lawyer some medical advice, but he wasn't happy as I gave it in 'lawyer speak'.......and really enjoyed seeing his face squirm! That's what they do to the average Joe.

Simple advce: Block all rents payments. Stop them dead, and move. Your broke landlord ain't gonna persue you.

So - that's a good two months free rent for ya.

Enjoy.

Edited July 19, 2008 by renterbob

[DemolitionRed]

Whoooaaaahhhh!

Demo red this is way too complicated for the average renter. I mean, if you and yours wanted a pregnancy test you'd go out and buy the kit and do it. You wouldn't be expected to develop the antibodies/detection system in the local medical school for the next ten years and then maybe use the kit. This is what lawyers want the public to do.

I once gave a lawyer some medical advice, but he wasn't happy as I gave it in 'lawyer speak'.......and really enjoyed seeing his face squirm! That's what they do to the average Joe.

Simple advce: Block all rents payments. Stop them dead, and move. Your broke landlord ain't gonna persue you.

So - that's a good two months free rent for ya.

Enjoy.

Don't you mean that its far too complicated for you renterbob?

Actually it was fairly straightforward!! but then your not here to try and understand or enter into intelligent debate. Your just here to scorn, insult and show yourself up for what you really are............BITTER

And what's the betting that in the flesh your as nice as anything because its always a coward that behaves this way from the keyboard.

[Matt Henson]

Don't you mean that its far too complicated for you renterbob?

Actually it was fairly straightforward!! but then your not here to try and understand or enter into intelligent debate. Your just here to scorn, insult and show yourself up for what you really are............BITTER

And what's the betting that in the flesh your as nice as anything because its always a coward that behaves this way from the keyboard.

DR... don't be temped, just keep him on ignore and never reply, eventually he will get the message that nobody wants to come out to play with him and move on to another street.

People like that are just plain boring... after all if I was a broke LL I would be looking to reclaim every penny of money that is legally mine so the best advise to anybody in this situation is to tread carefully but wisely when witholding rent. The idea is you don't lose money but neither do you expose yourself to legally having money removed from you

Edited July 20, 2008 by Matt Henson

[renterbob]

Don't you mean that its far too complicated for you renterbob?

Actually it was fairly straightforward!! but then your not here to try and understand or enter into intelligent debate. Your just here to scorn, insult and show yourself up for what you really are............BITTER

And what's the betting that in the flesh your as nice as anything because its always a coward that behaves this way from the keyboard.

With you?

Gimma a break babe.

It IS far too complicated for many many people in society, and the like of LL/EA/legal birds like yourself fully exploit.

You and yours clearly HATE anyone who questions your rather ugly and exploitative motives ie to keep upping the prices so the sheeple can pay you your salary.

Cheer up

Though, that may be difficult as you are obviously an amateur BTLer.......times are tough huh!

Edited July 20, 2008 by renterbob

[renterbob]

DR... don't be temped, just keep him on ignore and never reply, eventually he will get the message that nobody wants to come out to play with him and move on to another street.

People like that are just plain boring... after all if I was a broke LL I would be looking to reclaim every penny of money that is legally mine so the best advise to anybody in this situation is to tread carefully but wisely when witholding rent. The idea is you don't lose money but neither do you expose yourself to legally having money removed from you

1. Broke LL can't do anything, they are broke, bankrupt, and you WOULD not pursue a few weeks rent, and you know it.

2. See 1 above.

3. Gimme proof where a LL has traced a former renter for a months rent? Show me the link. There is NONE, because it ain't worth it, and you know it.

4. See 3 above.

Witholding rent from a Landlord is not a crimial offence. Did you know that? If renters did that now, it would take many, many months for LL to evict them.

[DemolitionRed]

1. Broke LL can't do anything, they are broke, bankrupt, and you WOULD not pursue a few weeks rent, and you know it.

2. See 1 above.

3. Gimme proof where a LL has traced a former renter for a months rent? Show me the link. There is NONE, because it ain't worth it, and you know it.

4. See 3 above.

Witholding rent from a Landlord is not a crimial offence. Did you know that? If renters did that now, it would take many, many months for LL to evict them.

Takes the good advice and puts dopy a-se back on ignore

Edited July 20, 2008 by DemolitionRed

[renterbob]

Takes the good advice and puts dopy a-se back on ignore

Oh, the last resort when losing the battle - another BTL bites the dust.

NEXT?

[Wad]

This happend to us quite a few years ago and we discovered by accident the LL was not paying his mortgage.

We went straight to the agent - told them what had happened and told them we would be staying until the end of the monthly period to which we had just paid the rent up to. We told them that we would like to rent another flat through them but would not be payng anymore rent to the LL on the one we were in. We also told them we wanted our deposit back within two weeks. The LL did his own checkout and we left within a few weeks. The agent was embarrased, worried we would sue and also could see they would get another commission by renting us another flat. It seemed a reasonable solution far all sides.

They agreed and we put everythng in writing.

I do not know the legal nicities but it seemed to us that the LL could not have any hope in court of demanding the rent be paid the end of the rental contract when he is not payng the mortgage and we were about to be evicted.

You may be able to sue the agent if they have not checked ot see if he is on a BTL mortgage or a letter from the mortgage company stating he is permitted to rent out the property on an OO mortgage.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Wad

[renterbob]

This happend to us quite a few years ago and we discovered by accident the LL was not paying his mortgage.

We went straight to the agent - told them what had happened and told them we would be staying until the end of the monthly period to which we had just paid the rent up to. We told them that we would like to rent another flat through them but would not be payng anymore rent to the LL on the one we were in. We also told them we wanted our deposit back within two weeks. The LL did his own checkout and we left within a few weeks. The agent was embarrased, worried we would sue and also could see they would get another commission by renting us another flat. It seemed a reasonable solution far all sides.

They agreed and we put everythng in writing.

I do not know the legal nicities but it seemed to us that the LL could not have any hope in court of demanding the rent be paid the end of the rental contract when he is not payng the mortgage and we were about to be evicted.

You may be able to sue the agent if they have not checked ot see if he is on a BTL mortgage or a letter from the mortgage company stating he is permitted to rent out the property on an OO mortgage.

Great anecdotal and advice, thanks alot for that.

Sueing agents....what a wonderful idea.

[roger196]

Fraud

It is not illegal to rent out your property. The fact that you have promised someone that you won’t do that does not make the tenancy unlawful. Subject to the following there can be no fraud unless the LL has specifically told the tenant that he has the banks permission to let.

'Human Rights'

The House of Lords has ruled that there are no human rights issues involved if a tenant is lawfully evicted. This can only be altered by the Court of Human Rights in Strasburg.

If the LL did not have a BTL mortgage, the LL falsely pretended to the tenant that he was able to grant a 6 month AST giving the tenant peaceful enjoyment of the property for six months. Thus the rent was obtained by false pretences. IMO obtaining money by false pretences falls within the criminal code.

In Spadea v Italy 21 EHRR 482, it was held that the laws suspending a tenant eviction order were fair. However the opposite conclusion was reached in Scollo v Italy 22 EHRR 514. I would be interested to see how the H o L interpreted these two cases. So I would be grateful if you would give me the reference.