Spain Pulls Bond Sale

[Paddles]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...C-mostviewedbox

Spain has suspended an auction of sovereign bonds as investors take fright over the country's property crash and accelerating slide into economic crisis.

Spanish government officials have been shocked by the intensity of the downturn

The treasury pulled an expected sale of 15-year bonds after probing the market informally, saying it would wait until credit conditions began to calm down. "We are not facing financing problems. We placed a successful three-year note on Wednesday," said a spokesman.

Government officials have been shocked by the intensity of the downturn now engulfing the country. Car sales fell 31pc in June, industrial production has fallen 5.5pc over the past year and the collapsing property sector is shedding almost 100,000 jobs a month.

Miguel Sebastian, the industry minister, said the economy had ground to a halt in the second quarter and was now in "virtual recession".

If the building industry and estate agents of the UK think things are as bad as they can get here, they probably ought not to take any holidays to the Costa del Chav this summer. 100,000 jobs per month.

[Bloo Loo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...C-mostviewedbox

If the building industry and estate agents of the UK think things are as bad as they can get here, they probably ought not to take any holidays to the Costa del Chav this summer. 100,000 jobs per month.

course, Health and Safety regs here in the UK prevent any ministers from being shocked.

A risk assessment of any proposed statistics is carried out by officials, and if the shock factor was deemed to possibly harm a ministers ego or reputation in any way, then an adjustment will be applied to the figure.

we can only have sound fundamentals, low unemployment and interest rates. Thats the rule.

[Guest KingCharles1st]

If thats a TRUE 100,000 jobs per month of all descriptions, tradesmen, agents, drivers, core staff and so on, then we could be expecting to see a similar number here.

12 x 100,000= OH MY GIDDY AUNT

Imagine that to hit the UK with full force...

I don't think even Labia could find that many jobs in local goverment or the care business- we "might" have to raise official unemployment figures

[Paddles]

If thats a TRUE 100,000 jobs per month of all descriptions, tradesmen, agents, drivers, core staff and so on, then we could be expecting to see a similar number here.

12 x 100,000= OH MY GIDDY AUNT

Imagine that to hit the UK with full force...

I don't think even Labia could find that many jobs in local goverment or the care business- we "might" have to raise official unemployment figures

How many months ahead of us are Spain, do you think? 9 months, maybe?

[notthereyet]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...C-mostviewedbox

If the building industry and estate agents of the UK think things are as bad as they can get here, they probably ought not to take any holidays to the Costa del Chav this summer. 100,000 jobs per month.

100 000 per month, our builders are saying we could loose 100 000 the same amount over the next two years, although it could be the same people who at the beginning of the year were saying.

Prices won't fall this year.

We won't go into recession.

The economy is strong.

[Sheer Heart Attack]

Homes Worldwide Article

TI also remarks on the damage done to Spain’s economy and environment by the late property boom. Construction booms “divert resources from productive to unproductive sectors,” says TI, whilst pointing out that

Spain’s property sector might generate 32% of town hall incomes, but it also accounts for 36% of municipal expenses.

32% of town hall income? 36% of town hall expenditure?

Never mind the effect of the collapse on the Spanish private sector. It seems to be costing the Spanish public sector a fortune too although at the moment, it is nearly covering its costs. Once the construction bubble has truly burst, the Spanish can look forward to a massive hike in their version of council tax.

More gloom for the expats. Rising tax bills and falling incomes due to sterling's weakness.

[CharlieSays]

"Spain has suspended an auction of sovereign bonds as investors"

Doesn't that mean the market is having doubts about the ability of a western government to be able to pay its debt.

Is this the start of the bond market collapse?

[winkie]

How many months ahead of us are Spain, do you think? 9 months, maybe?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/06/spain.property1

Sad for some. But the prognosis is not looking too good.

[yield]

If thats a TRUE 100,000 jobs per month of all descriptions, tradesmen, agents, drivers, core staff and so on, then we could be expecting to see a similar number here.

12 x 100,000= OH MY GIDDY AUNT

The 100,000 jobs it refers to is in the property sector, yes we could have the same in our property sector and worse.

[rxe]

Spain, particularly in the south is barking mad as as far as building is concerned. People work in the tourist business during July-August, then they all (pretty much every single one of them) goes back to work in the building trade, either knocking the hutches out, or selling hutches to "investors". If people stop buying, then a huge proportion of the population is out of a job. In Spain, about 70% of the people I know are in the property business, either directly or indirectly. In the UK, I suppose it is about 2% of people I know.

Certainly in the South, they do bugger all else apart from build. The locals get rich flogging farmland (no future jobs for them....), building, selling and maintaining. That's it.

They are about 2 years ahead of us. We have a place out there, built in the 1960s, the house is a bit, er, tired, but it is on a cracking plot of about an acre. Top of the market for me was defined about 2 years ago when some clown suggested that our plot (not the house, that would be flattened) was worth £1m, and that he seriously thought that was a good deal for the buyer.

They built 700 "townhouses" on the headland opposite us (they look quite pretty at night, little lights twinkling in the distance). The land was a geological nightmare, the whole thing needed underpinning on an industrial scale. The flogged them ALL for 500K euros each (for a nasty 3 - 4 bed newbuild), people flipped them a few times, but that all stopped when the cracks appeared. Not just little hairlines, no 3 inch wide cracks that got right through houses and on into the street. The whole lot will be in the sea soon enough.

Edited July 12, 2008 by rxe

[hankdd]

course, Health and Safety regs here in the UK prevent any ministers from being shocked.

A risk assessment of any proposed statistics is carried out by officials, and if the shock factor was deemed to possibly harm a ministers ego or reputation in any way, then an adjustment will be applied to the figure.

we can only have sound fundamentals, low unemployment and interest rates. Thats the rule.

I can see the memo " All graphs must ,in future , be displayed up-side down"

[Laura]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...C-mostviewedbox

100,000 jobs per month.

We are getting some of the jobless refugees here.

Met some at a party this week. From Valencia where they said there was absolutely nothing happening.

Nobody expected it, one said.

So I had to put them straight on that.

One of them then asked me how long I thought it would last

You'd better sit down guys ..............

Most seemed pleased to know the brutal truth.

__________________________

Perhaps if the Spanish didn't have a different word for 'fundamental', fings would be betta??

[papag]

the Spanish can look forward to a massive hike in their version of council tax.

More gloom for the expats. Rising tax bills and falling incomes due to sterling's weakness.

Got to agree with that I have a holiday home in Spain and for virtually everything costs are less than £1000 for the year council tax, power,sky tv etc so unlike here in the UK where people seem to be at their limits there is some room to increase charges/taxes.

Quote Paddles

How many months ahead of us are Spain, do you think? 9 months, maybe?

Bit more maybe a year re house cost reductions / forced sales were happening on the Blanca last year and are still continuing

[Guest happy?]

There is some beautiful property in Spain, I doubt much of what's been built and sold to ex-pats in the last few years falls into that category.

[mbga9pgf]

There is some beautiful property in Spain, I doubt much of what's been built and sold to ex-pats in the last few years falls into that category.

Right. Here is a question for you all. Spain is, and always has been, a basket case. So, why-oh-why has Banco Santandere got away without plunging share prices? It was my understanding they bought abbey and a host of other with debt. So why are their shares not tanking?

anyone got an Idea of how much BTL/Subprime Abbey holds?

Capital Ratios?

I could spend a day looking it up on the internet, thought I would ask before I did that. A relative works for them, during the 2005/06 boom, they wernt shy of lending a bob or two. Her attitude was it wasnt the banks problem if they couldnt repay over 25 years because theyt could always remortgage, or in worst case repossess. Besides, that was only going to happen to a small minority of debtors wasnt it? I tried to tell her otherwise, that it was very dangerous, that the carosel was going to stop turning, but she wasnt interested.

Now why the heck is it that they have managed to continue without getting stung? when are their next quarterlies out?

regards,

MBGA.

[FortuneFTB]

I have an apartment in Spain, I paid 50'000 Euros for it in 2003, I guess its worth about 80'000 now down from a peak of over 100k, I couldn't sell it if I tried though as there are apartments in the block that have been on the market for years, Its in Torrevieja, not to many miles away is Polaris World... thats a ghost town.

[huw]

Right. Here is a question for you all. Spain is, and always has been, a basket case. So, why-oh-why has Banco Santandere got away without plunging share prices? It was my understanding they bought abbey and a host of other with debt. So why are their shares not tanking?

Banco Santander SA is one bank that's creating few jitters

...one bank worth a review is Banco Santander SA.

That's because Banco Santander, S.A. (ADR) (NYSE: STD) is one of Europe's leading banks, offering retail banking and consumer finance services in Spain, Portugal, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and other parts of Europe. The company also operates subsidiaries in Argentina and Mexico, and in 15 other Latin American countries.

Hence, it goes without saying that analysts like Banco's geographic footprint, lending base, and customer breadth. Most important, Banco appears to have been unaffected by the August 2007 subprime-driven financial turmoil.

I just hope that the management of Abbey isn't representative of the rest of their business..

[boynamedsue]

Spain isn't nine months ahead of us.

Spain is where we would have been in 2010 if the boom had continued into 2009. The salary multiples for mortgages in 2007 (when I was living in Barcelona) were reaching 15 times annual income for A COUPLE, both partners working. An average salary was 12k (Euros) a year, a two bed apartment was 300K.

People believed that the only sensible destination for investment was property, I remember hearing an old wifey talking to her friend on the street about a house she had empty;

Wifey: "Total, no nos hace falta el piso del pueblo.." ("As it goes, we don't need the flat in the village")

Friend: "No vendas eh! Nunca vendas!" ("Don't sell, never sell!")

I hope she ignored the advice.

Which sums up the Spanish attitude to property, if you have one house, buy another, if you have two, you need three...it doesn't matter if they're left empty, they'll be worth more tomorrow thn they are today. Spanish builders were, in effect, building masive jerry-built estates to be used as savings accounts. They were built to such a low standard because they were never intended to be lived in, merely left empty to appreciate in value.

Now prices have crashed, and many of my friends have 40 YEAR motgages on properties I believe will never again be worth what tey paid for them (even accounting for inflation.).

[mbga9pgf]

I have an apartment in Spain, I paid 50'000 Euros for it in 2003, I guess its worth about 80'000 now down from a peak of over 100k, I couldn't sell it if I tried though as there are apartments in the block that have been on the market for years, Its in Torrevieja, not to many miles away is Polaris World... thats a ghost town.

I used to got to guadamar quite regularly on holiday, before all the crazy building took place. some family members have a flat there, not a crappy one ither, one that the spanish aspire to live in. Compared to Prisoner cell block H that those other developments look like...

I suppose if you can afford it, realise that cheap air travel is about to go for good and arent planning to live in spain permanently, that is fine. Unfortunately, I cant help feel that Spain is a complete basket case, similar to a third world nation stuck in europe.

Their national cusine sucks. They are far too catholic for my liking and generally dislike brits even if they go to the effort of learning fluent spanish; I know very few brits over there that have managed to get a job, many british businesses have gone to the wall because the spicks refuse to shop somewhere that is owned by brits.

As for torri, is there still a big crime problem there? the waterfront is fairly pleasant, there is at least one good restaurant along there that you can kind of guarantee you wont get the Sh*ts from....

I just dont understand what the allure of spain is. I would much prefer to live in the outer hebrides than there.

[mbga9pgf]

Spain isn't nine months ahead of us.

Spain is where we would have been in 2010 if the boom had continued into 2009. The salary multiples for mortgages in 2007 (when I was living in Barcelona) were reaching 15 times annual income for A COUPLE, both partners working. An average salary was 12k (Euros) a year, a two bed apartment was 300K.

People believed that the only sensible destination for investment was property, I remember hearing an old wifey talking to her friend on the street about a house she had empty;

Wifey: "Total, no nos hace falta el piso del pueblo.." ("As it goes, we don't need the flat in the village")

Friend: "No vendas eh! Nunca vendas!" ("Don't sell, never sell!")

I hope she ignored the advice.

Which sums up the Spanish attitude to property, if you have one house, buy another, if you have two, you need three...it doesn't matter if they're left empty, they'll be worth more tomorrow thn they are today. Spanish builders were, in effect, building masive jerry-built estates to be used as savings accounts. They were built to such a low standard because they were never intended to be lived in, merely left empty to appreciate in value.

Now prices have crashed, and many of my friends have 40 YEAR motgages on properties I believe will never again be worth what tey paid for them (even accounting for inflation.).

sounds as if Banco Santander is the perfic short then!

[Darkman]

sounds as if Banco Santander is the perfic short then!

Don't say things like that please

I need the Abbey safe!!

[notthereyet]

it doesn't matter if they're left empty, they'll be worth more tomorrow thn they are today. Spanish builders were, in effect, building masive jerry-built estates to be used as savings accounts. They were built to such a low standard because they were never intended to be lived in, merely left empty to appreciate in value.

Now prices have crashed, and many of my friends have 40 YEAR motgages on properties I believe will never again be worth what tey paid for them (even accounting for inflation.).

I know people i work with who aquired property from one source or another and held onto it as a saving account,luckly all three of them have managed to sell in the last couple of months.

[beans on toast]

All hail the mighty credit crunch.

[Laura]

I have an apartment in Spain, I paid 50'000 Euros for it in 2003, I guess its worth about 80'000 now down from a peak of over 100k, I couldn't sell it if I tried though as there are apartments in the block that have been on the market for years, Its in Torrevieja,

How can it be worth 80,000 if you couldn't sell it if you tried??

We drove past Torrevieja once.

Unfortunately our old camper didn't have a turbo.

Why did you do it? - Were you on a two-week holiday?

[Paddles]

Don't say things like that please

I need the Abbey safe!!

Ditto.

I bank with Cater Allen for my business accounts. I've got a bit stashed in there at the moment. Does anyone know the rules regarding Treasury/FSA guarantees for non-personal accounts?

Does my business get the £35k guarantee or should I siphon everything out but the bare minimum?

[edit; for those that don't know, Cater Allen is the Abbey's business bank]

Edited July 13, 2008 by Paddles