piece of paper Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7494242.stm "The committee welcomed progress in cutting benefit fraud from £2bn in 2001/2 to £800m in 2006/7. But it noted that £700m of this reduction had been due to a decision to reclassify overpayments of disability living allowance as non-fraudulent. The MPs also called it "unacceptable" that benefit overpayments due to error had almost doubled from £1bn to £1.9bn over the same period." The net reduction in fraud, after reclassification, is £500m. All the fraudsters put together managed £800m. Administrative c0ck-up exceeded this at £900m! I wonder what the cost to the taxpayer has been to achieve this £500m reduction in fraud? I bet that it is rather more than has been deployed investigating fraud in the finance industry where I suspect that rather more than £800m is involved. Eric, (when you get your computer back), how much have Liar Loans cost the country? p-o-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7494242.stm"The committee welcomed progress in cutting benefit fraud from £2bn in 2001/2 to £800m in 2006/7. But it noted that £700m of this reduction had been due to a decision to reclassify overpayments of disability living allowance as non-fraudulent. The MPs also called it "unacceptable" that benefit overpayments due to error had almost doubled from £1bn to £1.9bn over the same period." The net reduction in fraud, after reclassification, is £500m. All the fraudsters put together managed £800m. Administrative c0ck-up exceeded this at £900m! I wonder what the cost to the taxpayer has been to achieve this £500m reduction in fraud? I bet that it is rather more than has been deployed investigating fraud in the finance industry where I suspect that rather more than £800m is involved. Eric, (when you get your computer back), how much have Liar Loans cost the country? p-o-p Most of the time they **** up and blame the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StainlessSteelCat Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Demonising those on the dole happened last time too (even though a lot of the poor buggers on it during the 80s had no choice whatsoever). If your Dad was on the dole - you said nothing at school as it was a sure way to lose "mates". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) Demonising those on the dole happened last time too (even though a lot of the poor buggers on it during the 80s had no choice whatsoever). If your Dad was on the dole - you said nothing at school as it was a sure way to lose "mates". What makes me sick the media are so focused on the amount of money v dole, they dont look at the amount of money via tax fraud from the rich, this is much large than the small amount in benefits. It's a magic trick i'll show you someting in this hand too distract you from whats really going on in the other hand. Edited July 9, 2008 by crash2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DementedTuna Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'm not sure if being on the dole is reviled as it used to be. We've got a lot more people on it these days, and it's seen as a lifestyle choice rather than something shameful. There are plenty of jobs out there, but people would rather sign on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboypass Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 There shouldnt be any benefits.. and certainly not a the state they are in today. A prime example was the program: The man with 20 kids. which shows us the new underclass being forged by Labour and Gordon Brown as they pump more tax payers money under the carpet. We need a dynamic working force of highly skilled and motivated inhabitants. All we have ended up with is leeches. Time to get a few barrels of salt to take out the cr4p. In a credit crunch, it is time to turn to survival of the fittest and cut off th fat. Cant we ship all those on benefots to another country like they did to us when we were 'Booming' expanding our trillions of debt false economy i resent having to pay so much taxes for so little in return and to see the streets filled with immigrants, single mothers, and incapacity fraudsters claimants does my nut in. Since when is alcoholism, drug dependance and obesity a disability...??? FFS get it together Labour....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastleighfan Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 What makes me sick the media are so focused on the amount of money v dole, they dont look at the amount of money via tax fraud from the rich, this is much large than the small amount in benefits. It's a magic trick i'll show you someting in this hand too distract you from whats really going on in the other hand. Couldn't agree with you more , friend Another point that is usually overlooked , is how much would it have cost to invest in manafacuring industry V How much spent chasing "Scroungers" Of course , bosses love having people on the "dole" . More people unemployed = lower wages . Bosses can then demonise the unemployed and keep wages down at the same time . The bosses are in a win-win situation . It makes me sick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyB Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 There shouldnt be any benefits..and certainly not a the state they are in today. A prime example was the program: The man with 20 kids. which shows us the new underclass being forged by Labour and Gordon Brown as they pump more tax payers money under the carpet. We need a dynamic working force of highly skilled and motivated inhabitants. All we have ended up with is leeches. Time to get a few barrels of salt to take out the cr4p. In a credit crunch, it is time to turn to survival of the fittest and cut off th fat. Cant we ship all those on benefots to another country like they did to us when we were 'Booming' expanding our trillions of debt false economy i resent having to pay so much taxes for so little in return and to see the streets filled with immigrants, single mothers, and incapacity fraudsters claimants does my nut in. Since when is alcoholism, drug dependance and obesity a disability...??? FFS get it together Labour....! Long-term benefit claimants should just be chucked off it. I don't mind paying for a system to support people who've been made redundant in order to help them get back into work, but lots of benefit claimants have been on it for years and have no intention of working because they know the state will support them forever. The worst thing about it is that if you work hard and save money, then the state still won't help you when you're down and expects you to use up all your savings. It also doesn't help that many people who work in low paid jobs actually have less income than some on benefits, that should never be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colour Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 What makes me sick the media are so focused on the amount of money v dole, they dont look at the amount of money via tax fraud from the rich, this is much large than the small amount in benefits. It's a magic trick i'll show you someting in this hand too distract you from whats really going on in the other hand. Rich people do not need to evade paying taxes, or to commit fraud. They have another force on their side in this war. Trust law. Setting up personal trusts in the UK is THE one way ticket to tax avoidance (note not evasion, which is illegal). The way it works is that you apply to become a beneficiary of a trust. You then pay all your money into it (after a toekn paye contribution), let it sit comfortably for a while, and then on a regular basis, have the cash paid to you in the form of an interest free loan with no repayment terms. This amount is then taxable at BOE base rate. This avoidance technique is used throughout the rich world of the UK by everyone who is anyone. They also use this technique, or a derived one, in order to avoid GCT for their kiddie's inheritance. It's all above board and fully declared to the Revenue, who cannot close this loophole because of UK trust law. There you go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Long-term benefit claimants should just be chucked off it. I don't mind paying for a system to support people who've been made redundant in order to help them get back into work, but lots of benefit claimants have been on it for years and have no intention of working because they know the state will support them forever.The worst thing about it is that if you work hard and save money, then the state still won't help you when you're down and expects you to use up all your savings. It also doesn't help that many people who work in low paid jobs actually have less income than some on benefits, that should never be the case. you just answered your question, thats why long term benefit customers are still on it, because wages dont pay them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyB Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 you just answered your question, thats why long term benefit customers are still on it, because wages dont pay them. I didn't ask why they are still on it, I said they should have their benefits suspended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboypass Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 you just answered your question, thats why long term benefit customers are still on it, because wages dont pay them. That shouldnt be my bloody problem and the rest of the tax payers problem though should it?? If like other countries you were only given max 20 weeks out of a year on unemployment benefits, im pretty damn sure these freaking slackers would go to school and get decent jobs and try to maintain a job and get themselves educated and try to further themselves... else they know they are going to perish... Seem a f*cking strange system that rewards people for sitting at home..need more cash..have a baby..jesus...we will even support 20 babies and house you all for free...just keep going.. I would hope even a human unfortunately blessed with 2 brain cells would have though of the consequences and put something in place like Government will only support 1 child / max 2. otherwise you plan your own future. It should be if you cant afford to have kids, you dont have them..but now its its ok, the governemtn will house and give me money and even pay me for not going to work and being fat alcoholic and f*kked on drugs...and then give me drugs and acohol to support me?? driving me nuts just typing this lunacy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckmojo Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 just stop giving any money as benefit. Housing, clothing, connectivity, food vouchers, mandatory training programmes. no cash for booze, tracksuits and fags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyB Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 just stop giving any money as benefit. Housing, clothing, connectivity, food vouchers, mandatory training programmes. no cash for booze, tracksuits and fags. That would be a good start, they have prepaid cards that can't be used to buy alcohol, fags, lottery tickets etc... God knows why they don't roll this stuff out to all benefit claimants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPants Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I lost my sympathy for the long term unemployed when I first saw signs in shop windows in London saying 'English speaker wanted'. That pretty much showed that any long term unemployment was a lifestyle choice and hence not worthy of subsidy. Two years at one time, five years in a lifetime, that's what I'd like to see. Enough cover to get you through a recession or loss of job, not enough to be a parasite of your fellow man for ever. While I'm at it I think Housing benefit and social housing are bunkum as well, just give people enough in benefits (subject to time constraints above) to live incl. buying housing in the free market. No need to distort the housing and rental markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckmojo Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 That would be a good start, they have prepaid cards that can't be used to buy alcohol, fags, lottery tickets etc... God knows why they don't roll this stuff out to all benefit claimants. they don't because every dole is a vote. simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantinghome Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 There shouldnt be any benefits..and certainly not a the state they are in today. A prime example was the program: The man with 20 kids. which shows us the new underclass being forged by Labour and Gordon Brown as they pump more tax payers money under the carpet. We need a dynamic working force of highly skilled and motivated inhabitants. All we have ended up with is leeches. Time to get a few barrels of salt to take out the cr4p. In a credit crunch, it is time to turn to survival of the fittest and cut off th fat. Cant we ship all those on benefots to another country like they did to us when we were 'Booming' expanding our trillions of debt false economy i resent having to pay so much taxes for so little in return and to see the streets filled with immigrants, single mothers, and incapacity fraudsters claimants does my nut in. Since when is alcoholism, drug dependance and obesity a disability...??? FFS get it together Labour....! At one end of the spectrum we have the guy with 20 kids. At the other we have a disabled couple I know - he's blind, she's wheelchair-bound due to cerebral palsy. They work well together - he pushes the wheelchair and she gives him directions. But with the best will in the world it's hard to see how they'd be able to provide for themselves. You've got a whole range in between these extremes, and I think you've got to strike a balance. The trouble with the system as it stands is it's very inflexible for people who need occasional help, and does little to get long term benefits claimants to support themselves (if they are able). I'd like to see a compulsory training / work placement system in place for all long term claimants. This would give people a route out, and make it far more difficult to claim benefits and work on the sly. However, I've got to ask why so much ire gets directed at benefit fraudsters when the government gets done over for far more by large companies (PFI, any government IT scheme). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbux Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 That shouldnt be my bloody problem and the rest of the tax payers problem though should it??If like other countries you were only given max 20 weeks out of a year on unemployment benefits, im pretty damn sure these freaking slackers would go to school and get decent jobs and try to maintain a job and get themselves educated and try to further themselves... else they know they are going to perish... Seem a f*cking strange system that rewards people for sitting at home..need more cash..have a baby..jesus...we will even support 20 babies and house you all for free...just keep going.. I would hope even a human unfortunately blessed with 2 brain cells would have though of the consequences and put something in place like Government will only support 1 child / max 2. otherwise you plan your own future. It should be if you cant afford to have kids, you dont have them..but now its its ok, the governemtn will house and give me money and even pay me for not going to work and being fat alcoholic and f*kked on drugs...and then give me drugs and acohol to support me?? driving me nuts just typing this lunacy!!! It doesn't need the media to demonise them either, there are plenty of them perfactly able to do that themselves. Put them on HB in a rented house next door to a bunch of hard working/tax-paying OO's, give them more disposable income than the tax-payers which they then spend on loud hifi's, late-night parties and huge light displays at Xmas. If the super-rich couldn't tax-avoid NuLab would just give the extra to these scum. The benefits system should support those in genuine need, not every sod who wants to play the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboypass Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Ok so the arguement here is whether we are being more screwed over by benefits or people not paying tax... I reckon sort out the benefit system first.... Then attack on non-payers, loopholes... In terms of the example of 2 people who are long term disabled... I know it sounds harsh, but would they survive in any other economic/socialist situation where we didnt just keep providing for them. I also include these in the chaff...if you cant do something useful for the economy, the economy shouldnt be doing anything useful for you...full stop. People should finish themselves off and have some honour like the japanese used to. You could argue even leeches have uses...yes but very limited... I do understand we need a small pool of resources to expand into for growing economy but 6 million on incapacity and unemployment out of workforce of 60 million people in uk (22 million workforce) about 1 in 4 is a f*cking joke...!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyB Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 At one end of the spectrum we have the guy with 20 kids.At the other we have a disabled couple I know - he's blind, she's wheelchair-bound due to cerebral palsy. They work well together - he pushes the wheelchair and she gives him directions. But with the best will in the world it's hard to see how they'd be able to provide for themselves. You've got a whole range in between these extremes, and I think you've got to strike a balance. The trouble with the system as it stands is it's very inflexible for people who need occasional help, and does little to get long term benefits claimants to support themselves (if they are able). I'd like to see a compulsory training / work placement system in place for all long term claimants. This would give people a route out, and make it far more difficult to claim benefits and work on the sly. However, I've got to ask why so much ire gets directed at benefit fraudsters when the government gets done over for far more by large companies (PFI, any government IT scheme). I agree your disabled friends should recieve support, though there are many jobs that blind people can perform, but often employers don't want to make the necesarry investments to make it feasable. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people on incapacity benefit that shouldn't be, and it's a bad thing for those that really need it. There's a program called Skint (BBC i think) and the bloke on there often says he is 'disabled' but he seems to be quite capable of doing everything so i've no idea what is wrong with him that makes him disabled. Equally, people who are really overweight shouldn't be getting incapacity benefits, this surely only makes them sit at home and eat more, making the problem worse. If people were made to take some responsibility for their own decisions then we'd have a lot less human wreckage in this country. I'm also equally annoyed at the way the rich can avoid tax and the way companies take the Govt for a ride with PFI deals. The olympics is a great example, it's clearly stupid to put a huge overflow fund in place as whatever overflow you have will inevitably be used up. They should just sign a contract with the companies building the olypics and hold them responsible for meeting their obligations, not chuck money at them when they screw it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantinghome Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The benefits system should support those in genuine need, not every sod who wants to play the system. And there is the heart of the problem. If there was an easy way to do this, some country somewhere would have found it by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash2006 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 (edited) What about people that work and claim housing benefit council tax benefit, working tax credits? and people that dont? tax credits refunds are larger than what people get per week on the dole? btw the benefits system creates jobs in all sectors. the benefit system keeps the economy going. Edited July 9, 2008 by crash2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 People on the dole don't pay into party coffers or have dinner with important people so can be investigated at will. Although to be fair people committing this fraud shouldn't be allowed to get away with taxpayers money. People committing massive financial fraud have tea with Mystic Merv and Gordon Brown and help fund all political parties. They have bought an insurance policy which means they won't be investigated whilst they make money and pay the grease monkeys. However if the entire financial system collapses this agreement may be worth jack sh*t a bit like the UK economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPants Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 btw the benefits system creates jobs in all sectors. the benefit system keeps the economy going. No it doesn't. All it does is move resources from the productive sector of the economy to the unproductive. Overall it destroys more than it creates. But like all Govt. intervention it does it quiety, nobody ever sees the jobs that didn't happen from the business that didn't grow because taxes were too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piece of paper Posted July 9, 2008 Author Share Posted July 9, 2008 Dellboypass, I would like to think that you have aspirations to be a politician and wish you every success if you have. There is a sad dearth of front bench politicians who are passionate enough to foam at the mouth when they are incensed. p-o-p ps - Are you related to Laurajon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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