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The Future For Car Motive Technology


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Meanwhile.....VW has a prototype golf electric-diesel hybrid that does 113mpg.

From Autoexpress article:-

Here’s the Golf’s not-so-evil twin! This is the Twin Drive – Volkswagen’s late, late ticket to the electric hybrid party. But it’s got a trick up its sleeve. The car is the first-ever hybrid to feature a diesel engine – and Auto Express has driven it!

There are only 20 Twin Drive prototypes in existence, but we got behind the wheel to give you the definitive verdict on VW’s clean, green derv sipper. And sip diesel it does. Bosses say this Golf returns 113mpg – that’s more than twice what a 2.0-litre TDI can muster!

The unbelievable economy comes from the blend of a frugal 1.5-litre common-rail diesel and three electric motors: one in the bonnet next to the engine and one in each of the back wheels.

When travelling at speeds of up to 31mph, the Golf takes its power from the electric motors solely. But only if driven gently – the diesel motor will take over if the accelerator is pressed hard, providing a slug of extra power.

Beyond 31mph, the oil-burner kicks in as a matter of course, charging the battery and driving the car. At motorway speeds, the diesel provides the go.

Silent

Together, the electric motors and engine produce 175bhp. How does this translate on the road? Well, the Golf is eerily silent at start-up and travelling below the magic 31mph mark. It feels heavy, but rides well and handles with the composure you expect of the VW hatch.

The car weighs 250kg more than a 4MOTION TDI, although the fact that two of the motors are at the rear means the burden is spread evenly, so handling isn’t affected too severely.

Charging the Twin Drive is easy, with plug-in points in the front and rear bumpers. It takes four-and-a-half hours from a 220V source. VW says that costs about £1.40 at current prices, for around 30 miles of urban driving. Stop-start technology helps conserve the charge of the water-cooled electric motors in town.

So it drives well, seats four adults like any other Golf and has incredible economy. It’s just a pity VW isn’t putting it into production for seven years.

I wonder why they're waiting 'til 2015 if they have the working prototype available today? Waiting for countries to gear up their electricity generation capacity perhaps?

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  • 2 months later...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/envi...icle5010490.ece

Charging points for electric cars are to be installed in thousands of car parks and on streets as part of a government plan to convert drivers from petrol and diesel to electricity.

Under the scheme, motorists will be able to plug in and recharge their batteries while shopping or at work. In the longer term, those who are unable to wait will be able to exchange their empty battery and drive on with minimal delay.

Ministers plan to kick-start mass production of electric cars with a £100 million package that will include incentives for manufacturers and tax breaks for drivers.

They intend to borrow ideas pioneered in Israel, where half a million recharging points are being installed in a scheme known as Project Better Place.

Looks like this is now starting to become a reality in the UK.

Of course there is still the question of electricity generation, but when you look at the CO2 reduction targets, the nod to new nuclear power stations and now this I think it becomes clear in which direction we are headed.

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I've a few comments form throughout the thread

'where does the electricity come from, capacity ..Environment' - Yes capacity may well need to increase, but local generation is the way to do it, less reliance on central power and less transmission losses. Even if the electricity is currently generated from fossil fuels, it is still good to encourage the technology development. Generally electric motor driven cars are significantly more efficient than petrol ones, even if the power comes from a petrol engine. If would also help to add solar panels to cars to topup stored power, say while the car is sitting outside your work. There are many weight efficient solar cells around and now nano-solar may offer cheap power.

'Hydrogen' - currently no way to store it, AFAIK most of the concept cars the fuel leaks out after a couple of days. It is also encouraging IC cars which as I have already mentioned are inefficient. A a portable power source, fuel cells..ok we can use them to supply the electric motor cars by simply dropping in an appropriate module, but please no IC hydrogen engines.

'Safety' - Yes electric cars have been made very light to increase the range and acceleration. Acceleration should not be an issue and there are plenty or electric sports car around. An electric motor is about 4 times more powerful than an IC engine weight for weight. Storage is the main problem, lithium polymer works well and for model aeroplanes (and even 1 full size one) lithium/electric is level in speed and duration and a petrol+IC engine. IC engined cars have just become heavy and safer because we considered that the fuel was cheap and limitless, we can have safer electric cars at the expense of efficiency and speed, just in the same way we have done with cars. The geewizz thing runs on leadacid batteries, hence it has no margin on storage. Electric motorbikes are more efficient, but don't keep the rain off, we just need to know how safe it is to make a choice. Most parents would not take their kids to school on a motorbike.

The problem with Lithium polymer is it is expensive.

For now I would say the answer is to ban cars where the IC engine drives the wheels, or to mandate a minimum 100mpg. This will allow technology to develop and for us to have a huge step change in mpg, cost increase will be significant but medium term saving also comparable.

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from Auto express - no link

Audi’s new green baby is shaping up!

German giant planning new eco city car which blends stylish looks with great economy.

Auto Express Car ReviewsText: Jack Carfrae / Photos: Larson29th October 2008Take a look at the smallest, most beautifully formed Audi ever. Auto Express has learned that the German firm is planning a new city car – and it will be based on VW’s ultra-economical micro-machine, the up!

The new baby blends fuel economy and style never seen before from Audi. It will share nearly all its underpinnings with the VW, while maintaining the badge appeal and executive air that buyers have come to expect from the four-ringed brand.

Bosses had previously hinted at the possibility of a small car, and speculation suggested it would be based on the same platform as the A1 concept, first revealed at the Geneva Motor Show in March.

But now it has come to light that the platform will be shared with the up! – which will also spawn a raft of other models from fellow VW Group brands Skoda and SEAT.

Audi’s new car will rival top-end versions of the Ford Ka and Fiat 500. As you can see from our pictures, the model adds a distinctive body to the chassis of the up!, with a gaping grille, neat headlamps, beefy wheelarches and a sculpted rear end. But the most innovative move – and potentially the model’s biggest selling point – is the choice of ultra-economical powerplants. Engineers at the VW Group are working on a pair of 600cc two-cylinder turbocharged units – one diesel and one petrol.

Fuel economy is predicted around 95mpg, with super-clean CO2 emissions of less than 100g/km – meaning the Audi won’t cost a penny in road tax under current rules. The company is also toying with the idea of introducing a 1.2-litre three-cylinder engine.

Yet near-100mpg fuel returns are clearly not enough – as an electric powertrain is also under development. Details are sketchy at the moment, but ultra-low running costs and emissions are guaranteed.

In addition, Audi has hinted that an eco-minded replacement for the A2 could be on the way. Rupert Stadler, chairman of the manufacturer’s board of management, told us: “We have intentionally left a gap between the A3 and forthcoming A1. Although it’s too premature to talk about the car that will fill it – as it needs time – the A2 had a certain type of DNA with its aluminium body, and this should be respected. But electric drive is a must.”

This newcomer could be based on the larger, MPV-style space up! displayed at 2007’s Los Angeles Motor Show.

However, the up! project is not without its problems. Originally, VW had planned for a rear-engined, rear-wheel-drive layout, devised to provide more interior space. But top brass have since revealed that this threw up issues in testing, with the car proving unstable in cross winds and suffering difficulties with engine cooling.

So, a more modern and straightforward front-engined, front-wheel-drive layout is likely to be adopted. The up! is due on sale in 2010, with its Audi sister model following in 2012.

So, small capacity turbo charged IC engines with 95mpg available very soon and electric powertrains following within a few years. Provided they're not prohibitively expensive, 95mpg should pay for itself over the life of the car on just an average mileage.

Edited by RK has gone
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now with oil at $65 it looks like you lot where suckered into a bubble

we are all going to start eating grass because oil to make food will be too expensive

we are going to fight Russia with nukes for drops of oil

we are going to invade the middle east to control oil

oil will go to $500 the day after tomorrow

peak oil

chinks driving more

Indians using more energy

personal transport will be no more in 5 months time

idiots the lot of you.

Like I always said, we can reduce our oil use 75% quite easily. We have plenty of energy. Energy in one form can be turned into another like coal to liquid fuels.

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On a more positive note, the future of car tech vs fuel..

in the next decade or so we will see the introduction of self drive cars. These cars will pick you up and drop you off at your destination. More importantly the cars will pick up passengers on route.

For example if you are driving from Scotland to London the self drive car will alter the route slightly to pick up others whom want to go from Scotland to London thus what would have been a 1 man per car trip is a 4-6 man per car trip. That in effect reduces congestion greatly but it also means instead of 4 cars doing 40mpg each we now have one car doing 40mpg or in effect that car is doing 160mpg.

Same theory with shorter trips. I live in a small town and drive about 20 miles to work and back. There are others who live in this town and work at the same place yet almost none share trips. With self drive cars this will again reduce 1 person per car to 4 people per car.

Worldwide it will have the effect of reducing car miles by perhaps upto 75% almost overnight. Travailing by car will also be far far cheaper and the number of cars produced will drop by 75% as the world only needs 1 car for ever 4 it required before.

When self drive cars become a reality within 5 or 10 years I think very few people will have their own cars.

An alternative to this which can be done right now is a large network of super efficient taxis. You order a ride entering where you are and where you want to go and when you want to start your trip. Just like with the auto drive system the taxi driver will have a sat nav and a central computer directing him to his routes to pick up and drop off people in the most optimal way. It would be like groups banding together to share a taxi but done automatically. I think that has the potential to cut trips by 25-50% quite quickly. It would also be cheaper than owning your own car.

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now with oil at $65 it looks like you lot where suckered into a bubble

Why isn't it $5?

we are all going to start eating grass because oil to make food will be too expensive

That would be pretty stupid, we would die pretty quickly, cows eat grass.

we are going to fight Russia with nukes for drops of oil

We are busy circling Russia in an attempt to control resources, does South Ossetia ring a bell?

we are going to invade the middle east to control oil

We already have, did you not notice, it's one of the reasons Osama Bin Laden doesn't like us.

oil will go to $500 the day after tomorrow

After the deflationary period, it will do, patience.

peak oil

Already happened, how are production figures looking, bit plateau like aren't they?

chinks driving more

Yes they are, motorisation of the their people is one of the stated aims of the Chinese Government.

Indians using more energy

Again yes, are you watching the industrialisation take place, although the latest factory for the Nano car suffered a set back when the locals decided they would rather have farm land than a factory.

personal transport will be no more in 5 months time

Get down to those car dealers, the ones that are still in business, plenty of personal transport mobiles at low low prices.

idiots the lot of you.

Er, you wanna look in the mirror, reality is somewhat scary isn't it.

Like I always said, we can reduce our oil use 75% quite easily. We have plenty of energy. Energy in one form can be turned into another like coal to liquid fuels.

No chance, did you spot the small financial upheaval recently. Capitalism needs constant growth. We have used most of the good quality coal and are now steadily working our way through the lower grades. The one thing we do not have is an infinite supply of energy, despite the suns best efforts. The future is gonna be one disappointment for people like yourself.

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No chance, did you spot the small financial upheaval recently. Capitalism needs constant growth. We have used most of the good quality coal and are now steadily working our way through the lower grades. The one thing we do not have is an infinite supply of energy, despite the suns best efforts. The future is gonna be one disappointment for people like yourself.

Care to put a date on it?

I bet you this time next year I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 3 years I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 5 years I will still drive meh car.

I bet you in 10 years I will still be driving my car.

Technology will save the day even if peak oil becomes a reality and so far it is not, over the last 10 years we have INCREASED production by 10m barrels a day. How on earth do you call an increase of 10m a day over 10 years peak? Coal and gas production is also up 35% on a decade ago.

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Care to put a date on it?

I bet you this time next year I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 3 years I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 5 years I will still drive meh car.

I bet you in 10 years I will still be driving my car.

Technology will save the day even if peak oil becomes a reality and so far it is not, over the last 10 years we have INCREASED production by 10m barrels a day. How on earth do you call an increase of 10m a day over 10 years peak? Coal and gas production is also up 35% on a decade ago.

Given that EROEI has been falling for all 3 fuels output would have to rise just to cheap energy supplies constant.

Increasing output just brings us nearer to the point of exhaustion (not physical but where the energy required to extract the fuel / process it exceeds its energy value) unless of course you subscribe to the abiotic oil/gas/coal theory.

Que for Beefheart ;)

You have changed your tune on the issue of technology - everytime someone here talks about something relatively low tech - but very effective measures you pitch in with your buy a jumper / live in a freezing cold house arguement..........

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Care to put a date on it?

I bet you this time next year I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 3 years I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 5 years I will still drive meh car.

I bet you in 10 years I will still be driving my car.

Technology will save the day even if peak oil becomes a reality and so far it is not, over the last 10 years we have INCREASED production by 10m barrels a day. How on earth do you call an increase of 10m a day over 10 years peak? Coal and gas production is also up 35% on a decade ago.

Hmmmm - perhaps that increase has brought us to the peak - certainly in terms of oil production. Sure - we might see a few million extra barrels of production but no one nowhere has the capacity to increase another 10 million in the next 10 years - not against the backdrop of so many major producers having experienced their own peaks. 2005-2015 is the favoured date range for peak oil. I bet oil production has fallen below 80 MBPD by 2015.

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Care to put a date on it?

I bet you this time next year I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 3 years I will still be driving my car.

I bet you in 5 years I will still drive meh car.

I bet you in 10 years I will still be driving my car.

Technology will save the day even if peak oil becomes a reality and so far it is not, over the last 10 years we have INCREASED production by 10m barrels a day. How on earth do you call an increase of 10m a day over 10 years peak? Coal and gas production is also up 35% on a decade ago.

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of peak oil, or indeed the nature of the planet you are currently standing on, although you may be currently driving your car. It is unfortunately finite and we haven't quite figured a way off this small globe yet. Obviously the moon was a good start, but it is a barren rock. We need to go so much further, and we will run out of energy long before we can figure out how to build the starship Enterprise.

I'll bet you that you will still be driving your car next year.

I'll bet you that you will still be driving a smaller car in 3 years.

I'll bet you will be carefully considering when you should drive your car in 5 years.

I'll bet you will either be hiring a car or driving as part of a car pool in 10 years.

I'll bet in 20 years you will look back on your car driving days with fondness, as you watch the elites glide by in their Mercedes. Obviously if you so much as raise your voice in protest you will be removed to a concentration camp.

I'll bet in 30 years you will wish you were living now, as this will be seen as golden age. Cars will have ceased to exist as a mode of transport, unless drawn by horse.

Energy drives technology, not the other way.

The future isn't bright, it is quite gloomy.

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now with oil at $65 it looks like you lot where suckered into a bubble

we are all going to start eating grass because oil to make food will be too expensive

we are going to fight Russia with nukes for drops of oil

we are going to invade the middle east to control oil

oil will go to $500 the day after tomorrow

peak oil

chinks driving more

Indians using more energy

personal transport will be no more in 5 months time

idiots the lot of you.

Like I always said, we can reduce our oil use 75% quite easily. We have plenty of energy. Energy in one form can be turned into another like coal to liquid fuels.

Cells, 'cell' more like with your intellectual capacity.

One of the things you list as weird predictions by those with an awareness of Peak Oil have already happened: the invasion of a Middle Eastern country to control oil. The other things you mention are not real predictions, apart from increased energy use of China and India. My understanding of Peak Oil is that there will be increasing volatility in oil prices tied in to volatility in the economy.

The only thing that has driven the cost of oil down has been a global economic depression. Reduced consumption of oil for the duration of the recession will just prolong the inevitable. The fundamentals remain the same. The recession caused to some extent by high oil prices will also slow down the development of new oil fields. Oil companies who are flush with money at the moment may find that the return on investment at current prices is too low to justify massive investments. The smaller companies involved in exploration are finding that no-one will lend them money to continue their drilling.

If a way can be found out of recession, which is not guaranteed, then we may well find the rising costs of oil will throw us back in again.

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[/b]

You have changed your tune on the issue of technology - everytime someone here talks about something relatively low tech - but very effective measures you pitch in with your buy a jumper / live in a freezing cold house arguement..........

i try to put reality back into you freaks.

you lot think we will be fighting Russia with nukes to control Saudi.

i say us wearing jumpers and not using the central heating so much is the more likely outcome.

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Hmmmm - perhaps that increase has brought us to the peak - certainly in terms of oil production. Sure - we might see a few million extra barrels of production but no one nowhere has the capacity to increase another 10 million in the next 10 years - not against the backdrop of so many major producers having experienced their own peaks. 2005-2015 is the favoured date range for peak oil. I bet oil production has fallen below 80 MBPD by 2015.

I don't think you can know you are at the peak unless you look back. When I look back to 1997 compared to 2007 we have increased production by 10m barrels a day. Massive increase!! that shows that during 97 to 07 we did not peak and in fact now pump loads more out. Same with coal and gas.

Now I don't know if we are at peak but I don't pretend to know unlike you who says Monday 14th jan 2009 at 4.25pm will be peak.

Will oil peak one day? Yes

Is the peak really important? A bit, like no shorts in the winter rather than nuclear bio engineered Russian attack cats vs uk mechanised chav armies.

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You clearly have absolutely no understanding of peak oil, or indeed the nature of the planet you are currently standing on, although you may be currently driving your car. It is unfortunately finite and we haven't quite figured a way off this small globe yet. Obviously the moon was a good start, but it is a barren rock. We need to go so much further, and we will run out of energy long before we can figure out how to build the starship Enterprise.

I'll bet you that you will still be driving your car next year.

I'll bet you that you will still be driving a smaller car in 3 years.

I'll bet you will be carefully considering when you should drive your car in 5 years.

I'll bet you will either be hiring a car or driving as part of a car pool in 10 years.

I'll bet in 20 years you will look back on your car driving days with fondness, as you watch the elites glide by in their Mercedes. Obviously if you so much as raise your voice in protest you will be removed to a concentration camp.

I'll bet in 30 years you will wish you were living now, as this will be seen as golden age. Cars will have ceased to exist as a mode of transport, unless drawn by horse.

Energy drives technology, not the other way.

The future isn't bright, it is quite gloomy.

Such an ignorant post.

My grandparents live in a village of perhaps 250people and a perhaps 1 car trip a day is used by the 80 odd families. Most people burn wood or dress appropriately for the time of the year and hence don't need much heating.

Their energy use is probably only 5% of yours or mine.

When I visit them am I unhappy at not driving so often? No

when I visit them am I pissed off that I cant war a t-short and shorts when it is snowing outside? No

do I miss my energy intensive lifestyle when I visit them? No

I and you and the western world can easily and with little effect on us cut down our energy use by 80% and at a push 90%.

that means if world production went down 80% we would not have much of a problem and even idiots on this site don't think we are going from 80m to 15m any time quick. The transition period of 5 or tops 10 years might be difficult for some but so what.

Add to this that all forms of energy are linked. If oil production drops back to 97 levels (ie 10m less a day) but coal/gas production goes up 50% then there will be little effect on the world as coal/gas will be used where oil was before.

You lot really do work yourself into ignorant rants.

Hopefully in 10 years time you will come back to this thread and figure out how stupid you have been (btw less oil production can still mean you have been stupid as you predicted the results incorrectly which are far more important)

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How dare you insult Cells. Didn't you know - he is one of this Countries finest Fisiks graduates ;)

Hey kurt I suggest you start training you and your families/friends stomachs to eat grass now. When peak oil hits you lot will happily graze on grass and laugh at all the non peak oil losers who have upset stomachs as they didn't train to eat grass.

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Hey kurt I suggest you start training you and your families/friends stomachs to eat grass now. When peak oil hits you lot will happily graze on grass and laugh at all the non peak oil losers who have upset stomachs as they didn't train to eat grass.

Perhaps technology will save the day eh Cells ;)

In a few years time I will be able to have a genetically modified rumen, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum implanted.

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i try to put reality back into you freaks.

you lot think we will be fighting Russia with nukes to control Saudi.

i say us wearing jumpers and not using the central heating so much is the more likely outcome.

I think the 'freaks' as you call them are those like yourself who deny the reality of 'Peak Oil' and it's economic impact. We've grasped the low hanging fruit of energy, what's left will be more expensive to get out of the ground. Look at the environmental impact of turning oil shale into oil, and it's poor returns on energy investment. New oil finds involve drilling deeper than ever before, drilling through salt domes deep beneath the oceans. Coal is not the answer and will not power our transport systems, it's increasing use for power generation will only contribute to climate change.

We are going to see more fundamental changes than just 'wearing jumpers' and 'turning the heating down a bit'. Gas prices have remained high, despite the drop in oil prices, throwing millions into 'fuel poverty'. People's habits are still changing after the last oil shock, fewer cars on the road, more journeys by bus/coach, fewer flights, buying of cheaper food etc. Most of the predictions made by the Peak Oil lobby are starting to come true.

The only hope now is for a "Green New Deal" which can help revive the economy and build an infrastructure that will make life viable in a post peak world. Recession may buy us a few more years, but may also prevent the necessary investment in sustainable energy and transportation.

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The only hope now is for a "Green New Deal" which can help revive the economy and build an infrastructure that will make life viable in a post peak world. Recession may buy us a few more years, but may also prevent the necessary investment in sustainable energy and transportation.

Agreed. Which is why I am looking at car manufacturers for clues. There has been a step change in the last year or so in announcements of new ultra-efficient IC engine models followed by electric only/hybrid versions. They are tooling up now. Imho this isn't because of the oil price rises over the last 6 months. They know perfectly well what is coming and are planning for it. Under Obama it looks like the US will "get it" too. I find it fascinating. My main concern being whether we have left it too late to build sufficient electricity generation capacity. I suspect the answer is a resounding yes.

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Maybe those of a more optimistic inclination could be called "the jumper wearers". Whilst those a bit more pessimistic will be the "grass eaters".

What is scary, is not the over simplistic opinion of the majority, and Cells is in the majority because very few people have actually thought our energy dependence through. We all take it for granted, and we all take it as read that things will pretty much continue as they have done in the past, except with cooler gadgets. No, what is scary, is the when the optimistic majority and deprived of what they assume is their god given rights. Cells telling everyone to wear a jumper and turn down the thermostat isn't going to work when the people require a scapegoat. Who will it be this time I wonder.......?

As for cars, I'm sure we may improve our energy usage, but when petrol starts getting really expensive people will be very unhappy indeed. In fact, those who can still drive will be targeted for some very nasty abuse.

Edited by SMAC67
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My grandparents live in a village of perhaps 250people and a perhaps 1 car trip a day is used by the 80 odd families. Most people burn wood or dress appropriately for the time of the year and hence don't need much heating.

All retired I guess.

We can cut down energy use no problem. The flipside is we all get poorer. There really is no way out of this conundrum, no matter how much you protest.

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All retired I guess.

We can cut down energy use no problem. The flipside is we all get poorer. There really is no way out of this conundrum, no matter how much you protest.

energy in the form of coal/oil ect does create wealth as using a combine harvester instead of 1000 men is more efficient.

but most of our energy does not go on productive things. i drove 400 miles this week down south burning about 50kg of petrol doing so. i did it because i could and fancied a trip to Coventry. if i didt have that trip i would not have been any worse off nor would the economy.

the same is true for central heating, there is no economic value gained in heating our homes.

90% of energy use is optional.

and like i said, peak oil is not that important, peak energy is more important.

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You are all making fools of yourselves. Just like the food bubble there was a speculative oil bubble wake up.

Some facts for you all.

  • Oil production is up by 10m barrels a day since 1997 (thus not a peak in fact massive new supply)
  • coal production is up 35% since 1997
  • gas production is up 35% since 1997
  • technology can reduce our energy use. such as self drive cars which would be the equivlant of adding 15m barrels a day.
Edited by cells
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