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How Can The Debt Be Repaid......


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Eh?

I take it that this is the Martenson-explained necessary exponential inflation of the money supply intrinsic to a fiat currency and fractional reserve banking system you are going on about here?

Edited by mirage
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Eh?

The total money supply in notes and coins is around £60billion, of which around £55bn is held by banks. All the other money is PC numbers and only exists on bank PC screens.

The rest is in wallets and teapots etc up and down the country.

If the banks stop giving out both types in new loans, how can anyone repay the old debts?

Edited by Injin
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The total money supply in notes and coins is around £60billion, of which around £55bn is held by banks. All the other money is PC numbers and only exists on bank PC screens.

The rest is in wallets and teapots etc up and down the country.

If the banks stop giving out both types in new loans, how can anyone repay the old debts?

with guns

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So here is the situation.

1) The bankers have all the money.

2) Lots of people have contracts to give the bankers money but can't because the bankers already have it.

Surely the contracts are invalid, no?

I can't contract to give you something you already possess, can I?

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I can't contract to give you something you already possess, can I?

Sure you can. You may have gold, I contract to give you more gold, how I get it is my problem.

You dont need more loans to repay the debt. The debtors exchange their labor for cash and hand the cash back in part payment of the debt. Now if there was insufficient cash in the system to pay wages that would be a deflationary scenario, I dont see the BoE letting that happen.

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Our debt system relies on ever-increasing amounts of debt/money to be borrowed into existence in order to pay off the debt that is currently owed. Even a fool can see it's unsustainable. We'll probably be reaching the mathematical limits of viability of such a system round about NOW.

Edited by RajD
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:lol:

I was more thinking that you could just demonstrate to a court that repayment was impossible and BINGO, all debts canclled.

Can't contract to perform the impossible, see?

Yes, by any normal measure all fiat denominated debt contracts should be frustrated. And by English common law, all frustrated contracts automatically come to an end.

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Sure you can. You may have gold, I contract to give you more gold, how I get it is my problem.

You dont need more loans to repay the debt. The debtors exchange their labor for cash and hand the cash back in part payment of the debt. Now if there was insufficient cash in the system to pay wages that would be a deflationary scenario, I dont see the BoE letting that happen.

No, because you are not allowed to make more money.

If it was gold, then fair enough. Fiat currency on the other hand you are not allowed to create or make yourself. The only place you can possibly get it from is a bank, and they aren't giving it out.

If they don't give it out, you cannot acquire it, and therefore you cannot possibly fulfil your contract.

If it's impossible, you aren't liable to do it and so the contract is invalid.

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:lol:

I was more thinking that you could just demonstrate to a court that repayment was impossible and BINGO, all debts canclled.

Can't contract to perform the impossible, see?

This reminds me of a guy I knew years ago who would continually be in court for minor offences, and would refuse to give his name, say things like, if the procurator fiscal swears an oath to an invisible being (God) he must be mentally unstable, therefore he is not fit to bring a case etc. etc. they would just get pissed off with him and fine him even more or send him down for 30 days etc. etc. By signing the loan agreement you have agreed, under the system that prevails, to work your **** off until all the little zeros are re-paid. You have accepted the asset price, whether it be manipulated or not, and you have accepted the means of re-payment. If the coming shitstorm forces enough sheeple to default we will have an interesting situation, because you need the co-operation of the majority to run any system of law? The banks will have forseen this and may use the only real weapon at their disposal, short sharp repossesion, forcing less indebted sheeple to hang on in there with their repayments. However it seems that the system has recieved a shock of serious enough magnitude to seriously curtail the banks behaviour. Re-payment is impossible, but you won`t see courts letting people keep their arset because payment is impossible, just the banks taking possesion of all their pretty useless assets to try and keep the sheeple humble. The only solution is to just stop using credit for ANYTHING.

Edited by dances with sheeple
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generally i agree with you injin, but on fiat money i dont

fiat debt based money in itself is not evil. the problem is that the market is manipulated by a central bank.

Would fiat exist for 5 seconds in a free market without a central bank?

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If there is £5Bn in the hands of the people and you owe the bank £500,000 then it would be possible for you to get your hands on the £500,000 (if you work/thieve hard enough). I would have thought the argument would only stand a chance of holding up if you owned more money than the people collectively have.

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This reminds me of a guy I knew years ago who would continually be in court for minor offences, and would refuse to give his name, say things like, if the procurator fiscal swears an oath to an invisible being (God) he must be mentally unstable, therefore he is not fit to bring a case etc. etc. they would just get pissed off with him and fine him even more or send him down for 30 days etc. etc.

Interesting.

By signing the loan agreement you have agreed, under the system that prevails, to work your **** off until all the little zeros are re-paid.

No, you haven't. You've agreed to repay pound notes to the bank because they gave you pound notes. There is no contract to labour or trade or anything else - just an agreement to provide pound notes in return for having receives pound notes.

You have accepted the asset price, whether it be manipulated or not, and you have accepted the means of re-payment.

Npo, you have agreed to return pound notes. Even if you had agreed to provide some other substance such as gold, in the absence of it you must still provide pound notes to settle the debt.

I

f the coming shitstorm forces enough sheeple to default we will have an interesting situation, because you need the co-operation of the majority to run any system of law?

Ignorance, more probably. The internet is causing the judiciary real problems at the moment, because any idiot can go and read the actual law they are being accused of breaking via google.

The banks will have forseen this and may use the only real weapon at their disposal, short sharp repossesion, forcing less indebted sheeple to hang on in there with their repayments. However it seems that the system has recieved a shock of serious enough magnitude to seriously curtail the banks behaviour. Re-payment is impossible, but you won`t see courts letting people keep their arset because payment is impossible, just the banks taking possesion of all their pretty useless assets to try and keep the sheeple humble. The only solution is to just stop using credit for ANYTHING.

I'd agree with this prognostication. They've taken too large a bite (although the logic of the system says that they eventually must) and there is a good chance that they will be out on their ear in a few years time and something like a gold standard brought back in. (Shame really, because gold standards suck donkeys.)

There is no way that they can dispossess millions through a flimsy fraud in the age of the internet. Not a chance.

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The problem is when a bank loans you some money, they aren't making 20% APR from their own money lent to you.

They just create the money out of thin air (so it costs them nothing) then they earn all the money back plus the 20% interest (or 10%, whatever amount it is). But because it was never their money in the first place that gain of 10% is actually a gain from just the service of offering money rather than sacrificing their own money.

You see money is a valuable thing and with the right investment it can give you a good return (30-50% or unlimited if your risky enough), hence why banks would rather make 30% profit by investing your money that you have deposited in a bank rather than loan out your money to others. Then for other peoples loans they just invent the money as debt.

So through this system we have two distinct winners:

1) Commercial Banks

2) Central Banks

So you can see it's fair for everyone. The only drawback is that for anyone not getting inflation busting rises in their investments and salaries they will lose real wealth which is what is happening right now. Also if commercial banks get too greedy with their issuance of debt the central banks can come to the rescue and inflate the money supply effectively stealing from everyone to save the banks and making a profit while they are at it- after all they are providing a vital service so why not make a profit B)

Edited by Saberu
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Sure you can. You may have gold, I contract to give you more gold, how I get it is my problem.

You dont need more loans to repay the debt. The debtors exchange their labor for cash and hand the cash back in part payment of the debt. Now if there was insufficient cash in the system to pay wages that would be a deflationary scenario, I dont see the BoE letting that happen.

Because of the Basel regulations this exchange of labour for debt relief can be done only to a very limited degree, even in theory, and probably not at all in reality.

Suppose at time zero the bank has assets A and liabilities L and that in compliance with Basel regulations its reserves A-L are greater than one nth of its balance sheet A, say by an amount H (for headroom). BTW I think n=25 in fact.

H = A - L - A/n and H>0

Now suppose that a debtor does work for the bank and in return is effectively paid P by having debt reduced by P.

Bank assets are now A-P, its liabilities remain L, and Basel imposes that (A-P)-L > (A-P)/n

This simplifies to P<H/(1-1/n), which places an upper limit only slightly bigger than H on the permitted size of P.

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The total money supply in notes and coins is around £60billion, of which around £55bn is held by banks. All the other money is PC numbers and only exists on bank PC screens.

The rest is in wallets and teapots etc up and down the country.

If the banks stop giving out both types in new loans, how can anyone repay the old debts?

In kind!

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Discuss.

OK Injin I agree with you that credit is just numbers on a screen and that it is the collective confidence in this system that makes them real. But previously I have found it quite interesting that you could actually rescind a debt because it wasn’t real. My problem with it is how could you get a call centre monkey to realise this?

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OK Injin I agree with you that credit is just numbers on a screen and that it is the collective confidence in this system that makes them real. But previously I have found it quite interesting that you could actually rescind a debt because it wasn’t real. My problem with it is how could you get a call centre monkey to realise this?

you let them chase you and ask for proof of their claims.

one of the most powerful things you can ever learn to do is ask questions in a helpful, well meaning and slightly dim witted way with people who think that you owe them something.

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you let them chase you and ask for proof of their claims.

one of the most powerful things you can ever learn to do is ask questions in a helpful, well meaning and slightly dim witted way with people who think that you owe them something.

If this strategy works once and unreal debts are removed how likely is it that you will get any credit in future.

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