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Kingston Upon Thames

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On 03/12/2019 at 14:34, longgone said:

probably the agents creating phantom listings to excite the market.  its probably not even for sale.

Indeed. I don't find it exciting, more depressing!

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On 07/01/2020 at 11:20, worried1 said:

Indeed. I don't find it exciting, more depressing!

i won`t dispute that. 

i see flats are tumbling in price lots at 250k ish now. 

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12 hours ago, longgone said:

i won`t dispute that. 

i see flats are tumbling in price lots at 250k ish now. 

It is depressing to think that a £250k flat is cheap anywhere outside zone1

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4 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

It is depressing to think that a £250k flat is cheap anywhere outside zone1

its more depressing when it was 375 and even more depressing when you could buy a 2 bed in a nice road for 200k just before those kunts introduced HTB !

phuckers should be locked up 

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On 10/01/2020 at 22:51, longgone said:

i won`t dispute that. 

i see flats are tumbling in price lots at 250k ish now. 

The older flats continue to come down, but the new builds are going up. There is a 1 bed on the Post Office development with an asking price of £570k! 

The problem is that HTB takes that down to £340k and that probably doesn't seem too bad for a shiny new flat in the town centre when tired old ones (see the link from Glental below) are going for not much less.

It's all a rip off of course, unless we get to the stage where the HTB loans are written off...

Edited by worried1

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On 11/01/2020 at 19:05, Glental said:

This one is fun: https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-76635850.html

Looks like a time capsule!

There's still plenty like this in the area. As I mentioned in my post above, £295k seems like a big ask because of the HTB new builds everywhere.

Although 1 bed flats are up to £570k in some cases in those developments, some are more like £350k, which is only £210k 'upfront'. That makes it quite hard to justify these old places that require work.

In a way, it might be a better investment:

- Share of freehold rather than rip off developers management charges.

-Garage rather than no ability to own a car in some of these town centre developments (No OSP included and no right to buy a street permit)

-Outside of the town centre which is going to become increasingly congested with all of this over-development.

On top of that, new build flats will always lose a certain percentage of their value on resale because they aren't new any more, and, as far as we know, the 40% HTB loan will still have to be paid back at some point.

Ultimately, I'd expect over-supply to kill the value of ALL flats in this area, even if the underlying market does go up.

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This development is a bit different to everything else going on in Kingston at the moment.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-84948812.html

The history here is that a lot of detached Victorian villas on two adjacent roads were bought up in the 1960s, joined together and turned into a large, low-end hotel. When the hotel ceased to become viable, a developer bought the whole lot and tore it down.

It's a shame that they could not have converted the original detached houses back into their original state, but this seems a whole lot less greedy than most of the developments going on at the moment.

The houses facing Beaufort Road have been rebuilt in a similar style to the originals, but they are now terraced and smaller. I assume that this has happened on the other road as well, and this has been funded by flats built in the middle. These houses must have had really long/narrow gardens to begin with, but the new ones have got postage stamps.

The developer paid £13m for the site by the look of it, so should still make a good profit, even though the houses won't qualify for HTB.

£840k for a 1,400 sqft terraced house is still completely crazy of course, but I wonder if these will hold value any better because actual houses are in relatively short supply compared to flats.

This is far from the most sought-after area of Kingston, but it might be in the future. All of the smaller infill developments seem to be sympathetic houses rather than high rise flats and it is quite a quiet area but you could still walk to both Kingston and Surbiton town centres in 15 minutes. It might have helped a bit if the University had moved to the other side of the main road...

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15 hours ago, worried1 said:

There's still plenty like this in the area. As I mentioned in my post above, £295k seems like a big ask because of the HTB new builds everywhere.

Although 1 bed flats are up to £570k in some cases in those developments, some are more like £350k, which is only £210k 'upfront'. That makes it quite hard to justify these old places that require work.

In a way, it might be a better investment:

- Share of freehold rather than rip off developers management charges.

-Garage rather than no ability to own a car in some of these town centre developments (No OSP included and no right to buy a street permit)

-Outside of the town centre which is going to become increasingly congested with all of this over-development.

On top of that, new build flats will always lose a certain percentage of their value on resale because they aren't new any more, and, as far as we know, the 40% HTB loan will still have to be paid back at some point.

Ultimately, I'd expect over-supply to kill the value of ALL flats in this area, even if the underlying market does go up.

570k for a 1 bed flat in zone 6 with a terrible train service and only standing room. 😄

someone`s making lots of money. 

old bingo hall old job centre the multiyork building opposite the old Voltz night club has shut down too, there must be literally 1000`s of over priced flats ready to go up. 

there seem to be as many homeless in kingston now as there is potential flats for development. 

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7 hours ago, longgone said:

570k for a 1 bed flat in zone 6 with a terrible train service and only standing room. 😄

someone`s making lots of money. 

old bingo hall old job centre the multiyork building opposite the old Voltz night club has shut down too, there must be literally 1000`s of over priced flats ready to go up. 

there seem to be as many homeless in kingston now as there is potential flats for development. 

It's a complete mess. All of the sites you mentioned have planned development, but the big one that everyone is fighting at the moment is on the car park behind the station, opposite the bingo hall. They have submitted plans for a 25 storey tower block there, which is the tallest yet.

HTB is the problem of course. Developers are trying to get as many flats built as possible before it is withdrawn or scaled back. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to stop it. It is just an ongoing bail-out for property developers and could end up being the biggest ever.

Meanwhile it doesn't help anyone else, especially in places like Kingston where the council have made the conscious decision to change from a medium density commuter suburb to a high density mess WITHOUT bothering to pay for any infrastructure to make it work.

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8 minutes ago, worried1 said:

It's a complete mess. All of the sites you mentioned have planned development, but the big one that everyone is fighting at the moment is on the car park behind the station, opposite the bingo hall. They have submitted plans for a 25 storey tower block there, which is the tallest yet.

HTB is the problem of course. Developers are trying to get as many flats built as possible before it is withdrawn or scaled back. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to stop it. It is just an ongoing bail-out for property developers and could end up being the biggest ever.

Meanwhile it doesn't help anyone else, especially in places like Kingston where the council have made the conscious decision to change from a medium density commuter suburb to a high density mess WITHOUT bothering to pay for any infrastructure to make it work.

To be fair to Kingston council the last three Governments have decided to make Britain a higher density country without bothering to work out how.

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2 hours ago, worried1 said:

It's a complete mess. All of the sites you mentioned have planned development, but the big one that everyone is fighting at the moment is on the car park behind the station, opposite the bingo hall. They have submitted plans for a 25 storey tower block there, which is the tallest yet.

HTB is the problem of course. Developers are trying to get as many flats built as possible before it is withdrawn or scaled back. The longer it goes on, the harder it will be to stop it. It is just an ongoing bail-out for property developers and could end up being the biggest ever.

Meanwhile it doesn't help anyone else, especially in places like Kingston where the council have made the conscious decision to change from a medium density commuter suburb to a high density mess WITHOUT bothering to pay for any infrastructure to make it work.

Its already at over capacity I have not looked where planning was put in place but its obvious to see they are trying to turn everything into flats. Is the car park behind multiyork up for redevelopment?

I Used the trains over December boarded at 7:30 to go to city airport and you could barely get on it. Not sure if it's always that busy or because of the strikes.

I agree it's a mess over developed and a waste of time it will turn into a slum eventually or sold off for social housing after they have scammed HTB needs to end right now.

570k though LOL I can buy in putney Richmond or Wimbledon for 3 something now.

They are deluded.

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7 hours ago, iamnumerate said:

To be fair to Kingston council the last three Governments have decided to make Britain a higher density country without bothering to work out how.

Indeed, but Kingston council have been exceptionally developer friendly. It would be interesting to see if stats back this up, but I can't think of many other places that have had as many units approved as Kingston. Perhaps Croydon and Nine Elms I suppose.

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5 hours ago, longgone said:

Its already at over capacity I have not looked where planning was put in place but its obvious to see they are trying to turn everything into flats. Is the car park behind multiyork up for redevelopment?

I Used the trains over December boarded at 7:30 to go to city airport and you could barely get on it. Not sure if it's always that busy or because of the strikes.

I agree it's a mess over developed and a waste of time it will turn into a slum eventually or sold off for social housing after they have scammed HTB needs to end right now.

570k though LOL I can buy in putney Richmond or Wimbledon for 3 something now.

They are deluded.

I think that the car park behind Multiyork, the building that had Multiyork in it and the old Tesco/Volts building have all been auctioned off as one development site. The Eden Walk shopping centre is supposed to be coming down and replaced with tower blocks and there are other 70s buildings all along that stretch that they are trying to redevelop.

That whole part of town has been deliberately allowed to rot by the council, presumably because they feel that makes it easier to get the excessive developments through as anything is better than what is there. That's thousands of flats on top of the ones on the PO site, the ones in the Bingo Hall and the Canbury Car Park if that gets approved.

I found the trains from Surbiton better during the strike than they are normally. They have been awful during January and I doubt they'll improve much once SWR lose their licence. Kingston station always seems busy as well and that stands that stands to reason - thousands of people buying new flats won't be funding those mortgages working in the local economy. How thousands more fit on four trains an hour, I don't know!

Some of these developments have already been turned over to social housing. Royal Quarter seems to have a greater proportion of obvious social housing tenants every time I go through there. That's no bad thing as we need more social housing and that is as good a location as any, but it is annoying that the developer will have walked away with a much larger profit than they should have done at taxpayers expense.

I think it is often the buyers of the £570k flats that are deluded. They are 'only' paying £340k in their eyes with the government picking up the rest. The problem for the developers is that they have got too greedy. If 1 bed flats are £570k, then the 2-3 bed units that make up the majority of the development will be over £600k and therefore will not qualify for HTB. How will they fool people into buying those?

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6 hours ago, worried1 said:

I think that the car park behind Multiyork, the building that had Multiyork in it and the old Tesco/Volts building have all been auctioned off as one development site. The Eden Walk shopping centre is supposed to be coming down and replaced with tower blocks and there are other 70s buildings all along that stretch that they are trying to redevelop.

That whole part of town has been deliberately allowed to rot by the council, presumably because they feel that makes it easier to get the excessive developments through as anything is better than what is there. That's thousands of flats on top of the ones on the PO site, the ones in the Bingo Hall and the Canbury Car Park if that gets approved.

I found the trains from Surbiton better during the strike than they are normally. They have been awful during January and I doubt they'll improve much once SWR lose their licence. Kingston station always seems busy as well and that stands that stands to reason - thousands of people buying new flats won't be funding those mortgages working in the local economy. How thousands more fit on four trains an hour, I don't know!

Some of these developments have already been turned over to social housing. Royal Quarter seems to have a greater proportion of obvious social housing tenants every time I go through there. That's no bad thing as we need more social housing and that is as good a location as any, but it is annoying that the developer will have walked away with a much larger profit than they should have done at taxpayers expense.

I think it is often the buyers of the £570k flats that are deluded. They are 'only' paying £340k in their eyes with the government picking up the rest. The problem for the developers is that they have got too greedy. If 1 bed flats are £570k, then the 2-3 bed units that make up the majority of the development will be over £600k and therefore will not qualify for HTB. How will they fool people into buying those?

 

HTB will need to be fully paid back are they deluded enough to think its a gift ? with 1000`s due and able to use the same HTB who are they going to sell to ?  

it`s safe to say unless you can afford a house it`s best to avoid this area flats will be peanuts with no transport infrastructure to support them. 

i would say 3-4000 units is possible on the space available and for redevelopment can you imagine how crowded and overpopulated it will be, the buses are ramed as as well already. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, longgone said:

 

HTB will need to be fully paid back are they deluded enough to think its a gift ? with 1000`s due and able to use the same HTB who are they going to sell to ?  

it`s safe to say unless you can afford a house it`s best to avoid this area flats will be peanuts with no transport infrastructure to support them. 

i would say 3-4000 units is possible on the space available and for redevelopment can you imagine how crowded and overpopulated it will be, the buses are ramed as as well already. 

 

 

HTB should be fully paid back, but will that happen? We all know it is a thinly-veiled bung to developers, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it as the next mis-selling/bail-out scandal.

It's funny you should mention buses. One of the developers was challenged on the fact that their plans weren't sustainable due to overcrowded transport, and they produced some spurious analysis to show that there is plenty of capacity on the buses. Firstly, it would seem totally wrong because they all seem over-crowded to me and secondly its irrelevant anyway as no-one buying these flats is commuting anywhere by bus anyway!

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12 minutes ago, worried1 said:

HTB should be fully paid back, but will that happen? We all know it is a thinly-veiled bung to developers, so I wouldn't be surprised to see it as the next mis-selling/bail-out scandal.

It's funny you should mention buses. One of the developers was challenged on the fact that their plans weren't sustainable due to overcrowded transport, and they produced some spurious analysis to show that there is plenty of capacity on the buses. Firstly, it would seem totally wrong because they all seem over-crowded to me and secondly its irrelevant anyway as no-one buying these flats is commuting anywhere by bus anyway!

Generally people do more than just commute from one place of work and back though. And not everyone works in london.

I fail to see how an outdated rail service is going to provide the means for all of these flats though is there extra trains due to be running  say 20 an hour lol.

 

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10 minutes ago, longgone said:

Generally people do more than just commute from one place of work and back though. And not everyone works in london.

I fail to see how an outdated rail service is going to provide the means for all of these flats though is there extra trains due to be running  say 20 an hour lol.

 

Not everyone works in London, but I'd expect the vast majority of people who are buying these flats to do so, possibly even two jobs per flat. There are very few decent jobs within Kingston itself, and you can't fund a £500k mortgage/HTB debt working in retail or pubs.

It's all part of the rip-off. They are marketing Kingston as an ideal place to move to if you want to commute, but it isn't. The train service was poor to start with, previous over-development has compounded the problem and the current over-development will make it impossible to commute.

You're right to say that people do other journeys as well as the daily commute of course, but I don't think that these flats cater well for that either. Most will prevent occupiers from owning cars because of no OSP or access to permit parking, the buses are over-crowded. Off-peak trains are probably ok at the moment, but for how long? 

I just think that basing the transport impact on buses is at best disingenuous when they know that the real impact will be on the trains. The difference is that people often have the choice whether or not they make leisure journeys, but they don't have any choice about when they commute.

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2 hours ago, worried1 said:

Not everyone works in London, but I'd expect the vast majority of people who are buying these flats to do so, possibly even two jobs per flat. There are very few decent jobs within Kingston itself, and you can't fund a £500k mortgage/HTB debt working in retail or pubs.

It's all part of the rip-off. They are marketing Kingston as an ideal place to move to if you want to commute, but it isn't. The train service was poor to start with, previous over-development has compounded the problem and the current over-development will make it impossible to commute.

You're right to say that people do other journeys as well as the daily commute of course, but I don't think that these flats cater well for that either. Most will prevent occupiers from owning cars because of no OSP or access to permit parking, the buses are over-crowded. Off-peak trains are probably ok at the moment, but for how long? 

I just think that basing the transport impact on buses is at best disingenuous when they know that the real impact will be on the trains. The difference is that people often have the choice whether or not they make leisure journeys, but they don't have any choice about when they commute.

There are still many big employers in Sw london and surrounding areas, but probably most will be commuting to their london job not that i know how they can afford to pay 570k for a 1 bed 500 sqft box 

after HTB holiday payment goes up to 3k a month if rates stay low with a 20k deposit. 

That`s a 50k job with all the money going to the mortgage.  i think i would need something better than that. ;) 

those who pay more than 300k will never see a profit ever 

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3 hours ago, worried1 said:

Not everyone works in London, but I'd expect the vast majority of people who are buying these flats to do so, possibly even two jobs per flat. There are very few decent jobs within Kingston itself, and you can't fund a £500k mortgage/HTB debt working in retail or pubs.

It's all part of the rip-off. They are marketing Kingston as an ideal place to move to if you want to commute, but it isn't. The train service was poor to start with, previous over-development has compounded the problem and the current over-development will make it impossible to commute.

You're right to say that people do other journeys as well as the daily commute of course, but I don't think that these flats cater well for that either. Most will prevent occupiers from owning cars because of no OSP or access to permit parking, the buses are over-crowded. Off-peak trains are probably ok at the moment, but for how long? 

I just think that basing the transport impact on buses is at best disingenuous when they know that the real impact will be on the trains. The difference is that people often have the choice whether or not they make leisure journeys, but they don't have any choice about when they commute.

Is Kingston so amazing that it is worth spending £500K on a flat there to commute to London as opposed to commuting from somewhere cheaper and having a house?

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31 minutes ago, iamnumerate said:

Is Kingston so amazing that it is worth spending £500K on a flat there to commute to London as opposed to commuting from somewhere cheaper and having a house?

Nope ;)

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1 hour ago, iamnumerate said:

Is Kingston so amazing that it is worth spending £500K on a flat there to commute to London as opposed to commuting from somewhere cheaper and having a house?

Obviously some people think so, but I can't see why anyone would at those prices.

At the prices for 'normal' flats, it would be more down to personal preference. I'd rather buy a £350k 2-bed flat in a good part of Surbiton than spend the equivalent on a house further down the line in Surrey, but I can understand why others wouldn't.

 

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  • 312 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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