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Anti-english Attacks Kick-off In Pembrokeshire And Powys, Wales


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I reckon the opposite will happen. As soon as Scotland gets independence the Scots will be less defensive, have more pride in themselves and their country and relations between Scotland and England will be better. They will never be any good all the while the Scots are constantly being told that they are worthless subsidy junkies who should accept English rule or flounder. The Scots will be able to work at building their own country rather than knowing in the back of their minds that they are contributing to Westminster and indirectly, contributing to a system that exploits them.

Except that Scotland is already a part of the EU in the same way that Britain is. Independence won't mean Scotland gets chucked out (for better or worse). And remember, smaller countries do better in the EU.

It would be particularly funny if Scotland's independence prompted Wales to do the same, then for Ireland to become unified and then for all the independent countries to create a fair and balanced celtic federal United Kingdom that excluded anglo-saxon England.

You might even find the Cornish leaving England to join the new UK ;)

No the UK is in the EU. Adn the UK did not sign up to the necesary legicaltion taht allows the entry of states after cessation as the Czech Republic and Slovakia did. Immediate membershiop is by no means assured. If this were to happen you would then have to get past the French who have said they will have a referendum before nay new states are allowed to join.

It worries me taht they all think EU membership is a given. If the scots get independence the UK will remain as the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and therefore retain all the legal right and positions that it already holds.

Scotland will essentially become an independent state and has a 50/50 chacne of having to apply for EU entry.

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Well, if it's good enough for Meedya Wales, it's good enough for me ;) . How did you know about the Kidwelly connection? A cottage in Pembrokeshire? No, don't like landlords, don't like second homes, don't like Pembrokeshire.

Edited by gruffydd
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As an Englishman living in rural North Wales I have found it OK, probably less prejudice than as a kid on Merseyside where the Irish hated everyone else. We did have on County Councillor reported as saying 'The English in Wales should be monitored and controlled' He had to change politcal parties quite quickly. The young people here do have a reasonable gripe about the lack of jobs and prospects and retirees from England have pushed up house prices, but they are still relatively low. It is other English people out here that cause me most aggrevation, mostly those who ride horses.

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No the UK is in the EU. Adn the UK did not sign up to the necesary legicaltion taht allows the entry of states after cessation as the Czech Republic and Slovakia did. Immediate membershiop is by no means assured. If this were to happen you would then have to get past the French who have said they will have a referendum before nay new states are allowed to join.

It worries me taht they all think EU membership is a given. If the scots get independence the UK will remain as the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and therefore retain all the legal right and positions that it already holds.

Scotland will essentially become an independent state and has a 50/50 chacne of having to apply for EU entry.

1) Even if this is so, then why would anyone object to Scotland being allowed into the EU?

2) Not everyone agrees that being in the EU is a good thing. Could it be an advantage for Scotland to be outside of it? *

3) Is a 50/50 chance a mathematically derived probability based on certain measurable variables or just some number you plucked out the air?

4) You assume that the French will object to Scotland's entry. What you do not realise is that Scotland and France have often formed alliances in the past due to a historical common enemy ... (England)

* Especially as another argument of the anti-independence brigade is that it's not even worth while bothering with independence as we're all part of the EU anyway. Does this mean that if we're not part of the EU then it will be worthwhile becoming independent?

Edited by Skint Academic
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Love the English, just keep those knobber Football hooligans to yourselves

Lived and worked in Wales till last year - (Welsh) colleague told me about going to watch Glamorgan in a cricket cup final at Lords. There was fighting on the outfield between innings. Between Glamorgan supporters from Swansea and Glamorgan supporters from Cardiff!

Another anecdote - Mrs Y worked at a nature reserve in the Gwent valleys - school trips etc. The owners wanted a sign on the main road for school coaches to spot the narrow turning up to the reserve. Council planning dept said yes - what should go on it - owners told them the English name. Council said that it would have to be in Welsh as well - OK, put it in Welsh as well - Can't do that the sign would be too big for that stretch of road - Well just put it in English then - can't do that, the law says it has to be in Welsh as well - etc, etc etc. They never got their sign.

Still, I do miss Pobol y Cwm (with subtitles)

Y

Edited by yokel
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You're still in Wales aren't you? - Ergyng, or Archenfield.

To ensure the Herefordshire Welsh remained loyal to the Saxons, the Welsh of Ross and the rest of Ergyng, parts of which remained Welsh speaking until 1850, were forced to serve at the head (vanguard) of Saxon armies attacking Wales, and at the back (rearguard) when retreating.

South of Herefordshire, virtually everyone I know from the Forest of Dean has a Welsh name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archenfield

I think the Cecil family, of Elizabethan fame, were Archenfield Welsh - indeed, their name was originally Seisyllt.

Edited by gruffydd
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1) Even if this is so, then why would anyone object to Scotland being allowed into the EU?

I think Scotland would get in without much fuss. It would be strange for an energy deprived trading block not want the world's 8th biggest oil producer in. Scotland is also estimated to have the best access to 30% of renewables in the current EU. Give it another 20 years of funny weather and Scotland might be exporting fresh water too...

Having said all that...Norway is similarly rural, similar population, similar resources. They aren't in the exclusive club made up of Nigeria and Scotland - the only two countries in the world to find massive oil reserves and become poorer (relative to the rest of the world). They've got the highest standard of living in the world and $160billion saved up for a rainy day, and they're outside the EU. The clout of oil production means they enjoy most of the privileges of membership through special agreements, but without the drawbacks (ie gifting huge sums of money to French farmers and sticky fingered bureaucrats).

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You're still in Wales aren't you? - Ergyng, or Archenfield.

To ensure the Herefordshire Welsh remained loyal to the Saxons, the Welsh of Ross and the rest of Ergyng, parts of which remained Welsh speaking until 1850, were forced to serve at the head (vanguard) of Saxon armies attacking Wales, and at the back (rearguard) when retreating.

South of Herefordshire, virtually everyone I know from the Forest of Dean has a Welsh name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archenfield

I think the Cecil family, of Elizabethan fame, were Archenfield Welsh - indeed, their name was originally Seisyllt.

Fascinating, thanks. It seems I live in a shadowy border land and an area once laid waste by a certain King Gruffydd.

Used to live in Monmouthshire - the local paper had long running debates about whether the county was Welsh or not - so there, if not any longer in Herefordshire, the territory issue hasn't gone away (although someone told me it is still legal to kill Welshmen as long as they are on the cathedral green in Hereford after midnight, and you use a longbow)

Y

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I was in St. Davids last week. There is a lovely organic ice cream shop there with a large glass counter that borders on the main street - country lane really. A Nordic blonde haired lady was reaching over it pointing to the flavour ice cream she sought. My friends commented that there was no need for her to bent over the counter in such an extended way.

She had one of those perfect shaped and sized bottoms that you see from time to time. Clad in tight fitting jeans it brought tremendous pleasure to our very Souls. Yes, there was no reason for her to put on such a display. Methinks she knew just what a lovely bot she had but, thankfully, it brightened up my entire week.

Just wanted to share. :rolleyes:

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1) Even if this is so, then why would anyone object to Scotland being allowed into the EU?

2) Not everyone agrees that being in the EU is a good thing. Could it be an advantage for Scotland to be outside of it? *

3) Is a 50/50 chance a mathematically derived probability based on certain measurable variables or just some number you plucked out the air?

4) You assume that the French will object to Scotland's entry. What you do not realise is that Scotland and France have often formed alliances in the past due to a historical common enemy ... (England)

* Especially as another argument of the anti-independence brigade is that it's not even worth while bothering with independence as we're all part of the EU anyway. Does this mean that if we're not part of the EU then it will be worthwhile becoming independent?

1) Because there is enough problems with the size of the administration as it is. It would very unlikely be immediate and would have to be a new member state which any of the members can veto.

2) This is true. However, strategic funds and of course the rebate would go as they are not available to new members. Also, the amount they would be required to but into the EU would be quite onerous due to the way they calculate the amount each member should pay.

3) I'm being nice. Edinburgh University Law Department, alot of white hall and the legal departments of many organisations, mine included believe this to be the case legally. The EU is being tightlipped as it is hoping it won't have to amke a choice as they know the bun fight that will ensue. Especially in whitehall as they try to get there hands on everything they can. Hey they are bureaucrats. This is well covered by many especailly EU Law Specialists. oN the other side you have a small number of specialist and the SNP who say they will get automatic entry. I personally think it will be a formality but it is still likely to take a couple of years once cessation has become legally binding.

4) Because France has a number of cessationist movements as doeas Spain and neither of them want to encourage the idea that these regoins the same hope. Also, France will usually side with the scots at the expense of the English historically. They have also stated that they do not fell that they should support an increase in number of members without a referendum, this goes for sctoland as well. And they have veto.

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1) Because there is enough problems with the size of the administration as it is. It would very unlikely be immediate and would have to be a new member state which any of the members can veto.

2) This is true. However, strategic funds and of course the rebate would go as they are not available to new members. Also, the amount they would be required to but into the EU would be quite onerous due to the way they calculate the amount each member should pay.

3) I'm being nice. Edinburgh University Law Department, alot of white hall and the legal departments of many organisations, mine included believe this to be the case legally. The EU is being tightlipped as it is hoping it won't have to amke a choice as they know the bun fight that will ensue. Especially in whitehall as they try to get there hands on everything they can. Hey they are bureaucrats. This is well covered by many especailly EU Law Specialists. oN the other side you have a small number of specialist and the SNP who say they will get automatic entry. I personally think it will be a formality but it is still likely to take a couple of years once cessation has become legally binding.

4) Because France has a number of cessationist movements as doeas Spain and neither of them want to encourage the idea that these regoins the same hope. Also, France will usually side with the scots at the expense of the English historically. They have also stated that they do not fell that they should support an increase in number of members without a referendum, this goes for sctoland as well. And they have veto.

This is a fascinating debate. In practice I think it's unlikely that Scotland would be prevented from joining. I can see that the French could have a problem and I bet they're praying they never have to face up to this issue, but for big chunks of territory to start falling away from the EU like that wouldn't be acceptable to those running the European project IMO (they would have phrases like 'the high water mark of European integration' in their minds).

If Scotland were excluded, then I can see Scots who voted 'no' being mightily peeved at being stripped of their EU citizenship, particularly the ones working abroad elsewhere in Europe. It seems to me that this issue would have to be resolved before any referendum.

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The second home thing is a huge problem but I don;t like the argument being toted as an anti-english agenda. Love the English, just keep those knobber Football hooligans to yourselves and send your rigby team our way for a whippin' anytime! :P

I await the reports of exemplary and noble behaviour of the Cardiff City Fans on FA Cup final day with barely concealed doubt.

Edited by tenant super
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This is a fascinating debate. In practice I think it's unlikely that Scotland would be prevented from joining. I can see that the French could have a problem and I bet they're praying they never have to face up to this issue, but for big chunks of territory to start falling away from the EU like that wouldn't be acceptable to those running the European project IMO (they would have phrases like 'the high water mark of European integration' in their minds).

If Scotland were excluded, then I can see Scots who voted 'no' being mightily peeved at being stripped of their EU citizenship, particularly the ones working abroad elsewhere in Europe. It seems to me that this issue would have to be resolved before any referendum.

OK, let's take it from the perspective of the bods in the EU. They want a nice integrated Europe made up of lots of countries so that they can compete on the world stage against countries like America and China. There's a few countries that have problems with regions that want independence. (Except the difference with Scotland is that it's not a region of the country of Britain, it's a country in its own right and with its own law that is in an alliance with England, Wales and Northern Ireland)

So do the politicians in the EU parliament decide to make the EU state smaller by letting a few million people leave? Do they start trying to revoke the rights of Scottish expats to work in foreign countries and thus harm their own companies and economic power that employ these people? Do they cut themselves off from the natural resources that Scotland has to offer?

Or do they say, "yeah well you're in the EU already, you're already your own country anyway, you're just making a few changes in your relationship to another member state, it's just easier to stay in the EU" ?

Politicians always try to take the easiest and most popular route. I think they will try to say to other countries that Scotland is different to say the Basque region of Spain or Wales. They'll then hope that these 'regions' don't achieve independence when they're in office and won't be their problem. France and Spain may not be happy, but as with all politicians, they can be bought off by other European politicians who just want a nice big integrated Europe.

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When nationalists talk about what is best for their country, they generally mean those countrymen that are white, christian and have the right accent.

Does your average Scottish or Welsh nationalist really give a toss about a Pakistani that's been living in Glasgow or Swansea for the last ten years, that pays his taxes and sends his kids to school there? I doubt it.

Nationalists are generally flawed individuals who think that nationality is more important than personality or talent.

I feel the same way about Little Englanders, as I do Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalists. Most people that say "I'm proud to be X, are implying that they are glad they are not Y". There's a very fine line between nationalism and bigotry. I hear it here in Ireland all the time. Nationalism is a scurge that can only hold a country back and render it second-rate.

Perhaps one day we will have home DNA testing kits and some "ethnically pure" nationalists will get a real shock when they find out who they really are. Hey, perhaps some of my "Irish patriot" friends landed here with Cromwell?

Can't we just concentrate on being good Europeans or Citizens of the World even?

Edited by Flash
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Let's say Scotland doesn't get in immediately. The consequences would be massive - under the EU's current border tightening policy, England would be obliged to put up a proper border. A bit inconvenient if you wanted to, for instance, transport a serviced trident missile from Aldermaston to Faslane (assuming Scotland and the UK would have reached an agreement over keeping Faslane open until the facilities were repatriated).

All British Passports would have to be recalled to make sure a British one held by a Scot couldn't be used to obtain work and residency rights in the EU. The 150 000 EU migrants in Scotland would lose their right of residency. Spanish and French trawlers would be barred from Scottish waters (what a shame!).

That's just what I can think of off the top of my head - no doubt there would be other much more technical ones involving Edinburgh's insurance market etc etc etc

I think what would happen is Scotland would get de facto associate membership a la Iceland/Norway pending acceptance for full membership. And the biggest advocates for granting that would probably be the UK rump. France might drag their feet, but fear of Basque or Breton emulation would be balanced by the opportunity to weaken "English" influence in the EU - no small pleasure for the French, you'd think.

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Nationalists are generally flawed individuals who think that nationality is more important than personality or talent.

A nation is made up of cultural values as much as it is made up of genetic similarity.

Would you be happy with the major political decisions for your country being made in another country that had different cultural values?

We have evolved as tribal pack animals. By nature we look after our own. Given a chance, other tribes (or countries if you prefer) will exploit us if they can for their own gain.

When in history hasn't this been the case?

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When nationalists talk about what is best for their country, they generally mean those countrymen that are white, christian and have the right accent.

I disagree, I'd consider myself a Scottish Nationalist, but I have nothing but respect for the Pakistani immigrants who changed the nature of shopping in Scotland, I don't give a hoot about christianity and as for the accent, well there's so many in Scotland there's no one "right" accent.

Does your average Scottish or Welsh nationalist really give a toss about a Pakistani that's been living in Glasgow or Swansea for the last ten years, that pays his taxes and sends his kids to school there? I doubt it.

This one does

Nationalists are generally flawed individuals who think that nationality is more important than personality or talent.

Evidence please. Or is it just an unfounded opinion?

I feel the same way about Little Englanders, as I do Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalists. Most people that say "I'm proud to be X, are implying that they are glad they are not Y". There's a very fine line between nationalism and bigotry. I hear it here in Ireland all the time. Nationalism is a scurge that can only hold a country back and render it second-rate.

A country can stand for certain values, usually a product of the environment and its history. If you grow up there you're exposed to that environment and have to live with the end product of the history. Yo are what you've lived, so why not be proud of it?

Perhaps one day we will have home DNA testing kits and some "ethnically pure" nationalists will get a real shock when they find out who they really are. Hey, perhaps some of my "Irish patriot" friends landed here with Cromwell?

You're the one suggesting racial purity here. Many nationalists care little for race, but welcome anyone who'll join the community and do their bit, especially this one.

Can't we just concentrate on being good Europeans or Citizens of the World even?

European? Damn separatist....

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Can't we just concentrate on being good Europeans or Citizens of the World even?

No. :P Who would we play at football? Mars? :P

Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,

Who never to himself hath said,

"This is my own, my native land!"

Whose heart hath ne'er within him burned,

As home his footsteps he hath turned,

From wandering on a foreign strand!

If such there breathe, go, mark him well;

For him no Minstrel raptures swell;

High though his titles, proud his name,

Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;

Despite those titles, power, and pelf,

The wretch, concentred all in self,

Living, shall forfeit fair renown,

And, doubly dying, shall go down

To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,

Unwept, unhonoured, and unsung.

Walter Scott

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A nation is made up of cultural values as much as it is made up of genetic similarity.

Would you be happy with the major political decisions for your country being made in another country that had different cultural values?

We have evolved as tribal pack animals. By nature we look after our own. Given a chance, other tribes (or countries if you prefer) will exploit us if they can for their own gain.

When in history hasn't this been the case?

What makes London (IMHO) one of the world's greatest cities is its cultural diversity. People come from all over to live there and call themselves "Londoners".

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Guest Skint Academic
A country can stand for certain values, usually a product of the environment and its history. If you grow up there you're exposed to that environment and have to live with the end product of the history. Yo are what you've lived, so why not be proud of it?

I'd say that it's one of those things that you don't appreciate until you have emigrated and start to realise how much you are a product of your own culture.

Pride is healthy in any community or country. It means greater social cohesion. People have something to work for other than themselves.

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Evidence please. Or is it just an unfounded opinion?

Just experience. Of course, I can't provide evidence of that experience, but there are plenty of history books out there.

You're the one suggesting racial purity here. Many nationalists care little for race, but welcome anyone who'll join the community and do their bit, especially this one.

Again, my experience is somewhat different. Most will form an opinion of you as soon as you've opened your mouth.

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