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Guest pioneer31
No, I am struggling to understand you wanting to use force on children.

Evil.

and poor comprehension too?

Can somebody else explain to this chap what the post actually meant?

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and poor comprehension too?

Can somebody else explain to this chap what the post actually meant?

It means what it says. if you meant something different, you need to write something different. Up to you to communicate your ideas, we aren't mind readers.

Should have learned that by now, even if you have been poorly educated.

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Wow, it really is quite sad to see such animosity between public and private sector workers. Divide and conquer at its very best.

The bottom line is that whatever the sector, a worker is someone who makes a contribution to our country and should at minimum be respected for that. Teachers are an extremely valuable resource to our society and have one of the greatest responsibilities of us all - laying the foundation of our future. More so today than ever before with so many parents having to work to stay financially afloat.

No-one is forced into a career, so it really is quite simple. Those of you who feel teachers have it easy, quit your job and become one - if you can't beat them, join them! And likewise, for all teachers who feel over worked and under paid, quit!

My girlfriend is currently studying to become a teacher and I can categorically state that the hours/pay/holidays/pension has made absoluitely no influence on her decision to choose that career. She simply wants be a good person, help her community and teach children values and skills to help them for the rest of their lives. While I suspect this attitude will slowly erode due to red tape, bureaucracy and statistical targets, her original motivation is very honourable and certainly alot more selfless than mine. I suspect most teachers at least start their careers with this attitude and should be commended for their ambition rather than being labelled work shy.

I know car salesmen who earn £50k a year, do they seriously contribute more to our society? And how about estate agents, mortgage advisors or bankers?

On a final note, Claire, for someone claiming to be living in Spain 'on the sick' with stress, your comments are not only hypocritical but an absolute disgrace. Perhaps you should be spending more time getting yourself together and getting back into work to make a contribution rather than causing cyber conflict on an internet forum. Pathetic.

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Guest An Bearin Bui
Why bother debating the real money leeches, when you can just bash teachers.

And it's much easier to assume that a person who objects to teacher pay rises is 'just bashing teachers' than to actually engage with their comments.

Do you think it's fair that private sector workers should subsidise public sector pay rises when they have experienced wage stagnation and a successive erosion of their rights for the last 10 years? Obviously not giving teachers their pay rise won't fix this private sector situation, and yes, the real leeches are the CEOs and bankers who are bleeding busineses dry but can you not see that it's a tad galling for private sector drones to be asked to put up with higher taxes to subsidise people geting higher salaries when their own salaries have stagnated and they have no means to strike or get attention to their plight? Private sector workesr are getting leeched by their own bosses and CEOs who run their companies AND by the public sector that thinks the private sector is a bottomless pit. Something needs to change but giving teachers pay rises is not fixing or changing anything.

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Divide and conquer. And you cant see it.

If the replies in this thread are anything to go by, we dont deserve better than the labour government we have.

Its about time people stopped arguing with each other, and turned their anger on the real cause of all our problems, Gordon Brown and his labour cronies.

hear hear

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sorry i am on a rant tonight, if they dont like it step into the commercial world and sse how they get on.

they wont , they preach but would never survive outside their cosie little government jobs. Their pay is in excess and pension far ahead of what they could earn in the public sector. They are quite frankly crap in the majority at their jobs !!

Most people are just annoyed that

1)They do not have the balls to do it. And get the right end result.

2) They will have to PAY someone else to look after their OWN children. Teachers are not there to look after your spoilt, ignorant children. The clue is in the job title 'Teacher' not 'Baby sitter. They are already forced to do after 'school clubs' every night to look after them and should be rewarded correctly.

I can see your teachers must have been poor.

Edited by sortofsilver
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What all you teacher bashers fail to realise is that teachers are asked to do more each year with less resources, and all this against a backdrop of a diminishing power-base (the ability to discipline the unruly), rising bureaucracy, and parent apathy.

4% pay rise? When RPI is running at a real-world 6% plus, and CPI is nothing but a fiddled joke? 4% is nothing. What we should be doing is INVESTING in our teachers; they are after all the custodians of our future hope, of our Great Chance to right the wrongs of yester year.

And what do we do? Bitch and moan about a measly 4% (on a pretty low wage to begin with) whilst our children suffer.

Injin and cohorts – you should be ashamed of your selves.

Stop being so damned sensible.... the people here are on one!!

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Am listening to Jezza Vine....an irate lady rang in to complain how hard she worked, underappreciated, underpaid, husband just been made redundant, going to lose the house.....and she couldn't go on strike 'like those teachers'.

Come on guys, you know the punchline.

She was an EA!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

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Crazy hours? 8am-6pm? Welcome to the real world!

Agreed, WELCOME TO REAL LIFE. People in the public sector really don't realise how good they have it.

Don't even get me started on the public sector "your salary is based on how long you've worked there, not how good you are at your job", and the fact the civil service will almost never fire someone, no matter how useless, they'll just get 'transferred' to another department. Total bloody farce.

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Correction.

Let's assume your child is 16.

Teachers get your children for six hours a day for 190 days a year for 12 years (= 13680 hours).

They are with you at home 24 hours a day for 175 days a year for 12 years (= 50400 hours).

And they are with you for 24 hours a day for the first 4 years (= 35040 hours).

And the other 18 hours a day for 190 days a year for 12 years (= 41040 hours).

So your kids are with you for 126840 hours over 16 years versus 13680 hours at school over 16 years.

So they are taught for 13680/140520 hours = 10% of their time between the ages of 0 and 16.

They are with their parents etc for 90% of their time.

Of course their home life (90% of their time) has no effect on their level of literacy and numeracy because all kids leave all their problems at home and come to school and behave perfectly in their classes of over 30 pupils.

Oh yes, that's right. I must remember that my kids don't need any sleep, they don't need any time to play or engage in any social activities, no eating, washing, travelling etc. etc. etc.

If you are suggesting that teachers are only responsible for 10% (according to you laughable calculations) of our children's education, then we may as well sack them all immediately.

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I think State sector teachers do a pretty poor job on the whole, and I speak from experience. I have variously put one or other of my children through English State Primary and Secondary school, Irish State Primary and Secondary school, private primary and secondary school, assisted place grammar school AND home-educated. Irish schools were way better than English and the private schools and assisted place Grammar schools were way better than state primaries or comprehensives.

Schools have got much worse in the ten years that NuLab has been in power.

But I don't think that's the point.

This government has agreed a wage structure and set a payscale for teachers - too high, imo, in terms of their worth.

But this strike is now NOT about getting a decent wage for the job so much as having achieved a decent wage, trying to retain its value vis a vis inflation.

I'm glad they are making life dificult for the government by refusing to accept a real wage cut - i.e. one that doesn't reflect inflation.

It is next to impossible for private sector employees to take such a stand. One of my daughters worked for a DIY chain - they made it next to impossible for unions to operate within the company and at every opportunity fleeced their employees of a fair wage for work done by various underhand means. This is the ugly face of capitalism; in my daughter's case it was driven by a leveraged buyout and directors who were intent on cutting costs at the expense of their employees, by fair means or foul. And the means very pretty foul, I can tell you.

Therefore only public sector workers can take a stand against government instituted inflation. Teachers are responding to the inflation that government has allowed, not causing it. I therefore support their action.

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Correction.

Let's assume your child is 16.

Teachers get your children for six hours a day for 190 days a year for 12 years (= 13680 hours).

They are with you at home 24 hours a day for 175 days a year for 12 years (= 50400 hours).

And they are with you for 24 hours a day for the first 4 years (= 35040 hours).

And the other 18 hours a day for 190 days a year for 12 years (= 41040 hours).

So your kids are with you for 126840 hours over 16 years versus 13680 hours at school over 16 years.

So they are taught for 13680/140520 hours = 10% of their time between the ages of 0 and 16.

They are with their parents etc for 90% of their time.

Of course their home life (90% of their time) has no effect on their level of literacy and numeracy because all kids leave all their problems at home and come to school and behave perfectly in their classes of over 30 pupils.

A gold star for you!!!

How many parents take an interest in their childs development once they've reached the age of 5 and are packed off to school? Crap parents = crap kids!! The teachers just do not have the time or resources to deal with the inadequacies of poor parenting. The truth hurts, I know! Suck it up!

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On a final note, Claire, for someone claiming to be living in Spain 'on the sick' with stress, your comments are not only hypocritical but an absolute disgrace. Perhaps you should be spending more time getting yourself together and getting back into work to make a contribution rather than causing cyber conflict on an internet forum. Pathetic.

Sorry I didn't realise that being ill was now a crime. Muppet.

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with inflation and manic HPI, I appreciate that we all need better pay and it shouldn't be a race to the bottom

No, UK consumption has to be re-balanced against its production -- so someone, somewhere, has to be paid less (in real terms) for the wealth they produce. As an importing/trading nation that must compete with other countries for the resources needed to sustain itself, we can't really avoid a race to the bottom -- sad, but there it is. This is going to lead to an interesting political and economic 'debate' over the coming years.

As for teaching, it seems to me that we waste a lot of resources on management-masturbation (national curriculum, key stage assessment, league tables etc) meaning that the system is more focussed on delivering good numbers than than a real education. This must inevitably remove much of the joy of teaching and drive people out of the profession. I'd want more money if I had to deal with all that crap, too.

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Guest pioneer31
It means what it says. if you meant something different, you need to write something different. Up to you to communicate your ideas, we aren't mind readers.

Should have learned that by now, even if you have been poorly educated.

Post 113

It's quite fitting actually.

With levels of discipline at an all-time low and teachers who have their hands tied (thanks to years of PC legislation), how do you force kids to learn?

Which part of that do I advocate the mistreatment of children? Your comprehension is lacking

It's a question asking how you get unwilling children to learn

I'm aware that you blame teachers for everything (bitter about your own stunted development perhaps?) but in reality, it's joint responsibility.....or do you have the magic solution to impart information on unwilling minds?

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Post 113

It's quite fitting actually.

With levels of discipline at an all-time low and teachers who have their hands tied (thanks to years of PC legislation), how do you force kids to learn?

Which part of that do I advocate the mistreatment of children? Your comprehension is lacking

It's a question asking how you get unwilling children to learn

I'm aware that you blame teachers for everything (bitter about your own stunted development perhaps?) but in reality, it's joint responsibility.....or do you have the magic solution to impart information on unwilling minds?

Yes I do.

Don't kidnap them and then expect them to be willing participants.

Just by advocating state education you are in favour of child abuse (and a whole host of other crimes such as theft, assault, threatening behaviour). Simple as that.

Once you've used violence and threats of violence to herd the unwilling into kiddy prison, you want to blame the victims for not playing their part.

Evil.

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Guest pioneer31
Yes I do.

Don't kidnap them and then expect them to be willing participants.

Just by advocating state education you are in favour of child abuse (and a whole host of other crimes such as theft, assault, threatening behaviour). Simple as that.

Once you've used violence and threats of violence to herd the unwilling into kiddy prison, you want to blame the victims for not playing their part.

Evil.

Are you on medication?

Have you taken it this morning?

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Allsorts of figures flying around. Source?

Oh and they stop work at 3.30pm and go to bed too huh? :rolleyes:

Source: my council's school holiday arrangements :)

but you can find many sources which will tell you that teachers work 195 days - add on 104 weekends and you're left wil 66 days holiday

First one I found is here

http://www.dfes.gov.uk/publications/guidan...97/suppissu.htm

Such teachers are paid on a daily basis calculated on the assumption that a full working year consists of 195 days
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Yes I do.

Don't kidnap them and then expect them to be willing participants.

Just by advocating state education you are in favour of child abuse (and a whole host of other crimes such as theft, assault, threatening behaviour). Simple as that.

Once you've used violence and threats of violence to herd the unwilling into kiddy prison, you want to blame the victims for not playing their part.

Evil.

If you add "compulsory, thus: "Just by advocating compulsory state education you are in favour of child abuse..." I'd agree. Which is why when any of my children complained about being unhappy or bullied at school I took them out and home-schooled them. Apart from all else, in the past ten years many schools have become the last place on earth where one would want a child to go to learn anything of value. They were far more likely to pick up undesirable character traits than to acquire knowledge.

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