Saidia (morocco)- April 2008

[Michael Sands]

I understand the comments above - there's no denying that Saidia has had problems with the collapse of FADESA. However since September/October last year the lead developer has been Adohha. Initially there didn't seem to be much change but this was due to them carrying out a study of exactly where the resort was now and designing a plan to take things forward and get everything back on schedule.

This has been done and on a recent visit the additional number of workers on site was noticeable. The resort is still on schedule to open in June 2009 and the hotels (Barcelo and Iberostar) are taking bookings for rooms from this date.

Overall Saidia is a massive undertaking, but building a resort for 30,000 people from scratch in Morocco was never going to be a problem free operation. The good thing is the close personal interest taken in the project by the King and the realisation by the Moroccans that it simply has to succeed.

Recently new investments and tie ups have been announced by Radisson, Golden Tulip and the David Lloyd Tennis Resort. These companies could have chosen anywhere in the world but after research by professional consultants they've chosen the potential of Saidia - a ringing endorsement for the resort.

In case you hadn't guessed - yes I am an agent - and we've just launched the Blue Pearl Golf Resort in Saidia. (186 frontline golf apartments, fully furnished with 8% rental guarantee. www.bluepearlgolf.com The first new development to launch in Saidia for about a year.

For our company this is an enormous step and effectively puts all our eggs in a "Saidia" basket - yet despite the market I still firmly believe that Saidia will be a tremendous success. We've dealt in property all over Morocco for the last few years and have been visiting Saidia weekly for over 3 years and I would still recommend it as the best place to invest in Morocco. There may be some further small delays but at least now they've put in competent people to run it and they have a very clear idea of what they what to achieve - and how to do it.

Keep an eye on Saidia this year and you'll be pleasantly surprised. It was never a place to "flip" but those who decide to complete and continue their ownership for six plus years will make a return that will prove the doomsayers wrong.

[mozo]

I understand the comments above - there's no denying that Saidia has had problems with the collapse of FADESA. However since September/October last year the lead developer has been Adohha. Initially there didn't seem to be much change but this was due to them carrying out a study of exactly where the resort was now and designing a plan to take things forward and get everything back on schedule.

This has been done and on a recent visit the additional number of workers on site was noticeable. The resort is still on schedule to open in June 2009 and the hotels (Barcelo and Iberostar) are taking bookings for rooms from this date.

********************

Michael

You've painted a very rosy picture of progress in Saidia, and I for one (along with many others) wish this was the case, However one cannot ignore the very real concerns many current buyers have such as promised completion dates (which have come and gone without so much as a very sorry Sir) and the very real concerns on build quality.

you mentioned that you are out there on a weekly basis due to your vested interest, are you really confident that the Marina, Shopping Mall and AP's along with the Barcelo and Iberostar Hotels will be in full operation by June?

the reason I ask this is because current photos from various sites do not give me the confidence the is the case ( yours included).

Barcelosaidia.com is still not confirming any future booking dates in Saidia, not sure what site your looking at?

Adoha have been just as lax in updating their worried clients as the new Customer Service Dept. is non existent, you would have thought they'd be shouting from the roof tops of how well the build is going and promoting the Resort to UK buyers in a much better light. A reply to worried clients emails would be a good start!

I'd like to share your optimism and hope I'm proved wrong, but I don't think the site will be operational properly until next summer.

Mozo

[Jesus of nazareth]

I understand the comments above - there's no denying that Saidia has had problems with the collapse of FADESA. However since September/October last year the lead developer has been Adohha. Initially there didn't seem to be much change but this was due to them carrying out a study of exactly where the resort was now and designing a plan to take things forward and get everything back on schedule.

This has been done and on a recent visit the additional number of workers on site was noticeable. The resort is still on schedule to open in June 2009 and the hotels (Barcelo and Iberostar) are taking bookings for rooms from this date.

Overall Saidia is a massive undertaking, but building a resort for 30,000 people from scratch in Morocco was never going to be a problem free operation. The good thing is the close personal interest taken in the project by the King and the realisation by the Moroccans that it simply has to succeed.

Recently new investments and tie ups have been announced by Radisson, Golden Tulip and the David Lloyd Tennis Resort. These companies could have chosen anywhere in the world but after research by professional consultants they've chosen the potential of Saidia - a ringing endorsement for the resort.

In case you hadn't guessed - yes I am an agent - and we've just launched the Blue Pearl Golf Resort in Saidia. (186 frontline golf apartments, fully furnished with 8% rental guarantee. www.bluepearlgolf.com The first new development to launch in Saidia for about a year.

For our company this is an enormous step and effectively puts all our eggs in a "Saidia" basket - yet despite the market I still firmly believe that Saidia will be a tremendous success. We've dealt in property all over Morocco for the last few years and have been visiting Saidia weekly for over 3 years and I would still recommend it as the best place to invest in Morocco. There may be some further small delays but at least now they've put in competent people to run it and they have a very clear idea of what they what to achieve - and how to do it.

Keep an eye on Saidia this year and you'll be pleasantly surprised. It was never a place to "flip" but those who decide to complete and continue their ownership for six plus years will make a return that will prove the doomsayers wrong.

Saidia is not the best place to invest in Morocco so stop leading people on. If you want to advertise pay for an ad you cheap skate

[Michael Sands]

********************

Michael

You've painted a very rosy picture of progress in Saidia, and I for one (along with many others) wish this was the case, However one cannot ignore the very real concerns many current buyers have such as promised completion dates (which have come and gone without so much as a very sorry Sir) and the very real concerns on build quality.

you mentioned that you are out there on a weekly basis due to your vested interest, are you really confident that the Marina, Shopping Mall and AP's along with the Barcelo and Iberostar Hotels will be in full operation by June?

the reason I ask this is because current photos from various sites do not give me the confidence the is the case ( yours included). Barcelosaidia.com is still not confirming any future booking dates in Saidia, not sure what site your looking at?

Adoha have been just as lax in updating their worried clients as the new Customer Service Dept. is non existent, you would have thought they'd be shouting from the roof tops of how well the build is going and promoting the Resort to UK buyers in a much better light. A reply to worried clients emails would be a good start!

I'd like to share your optimism and hope I'm proved wrong, but I don't think the site will be operational properly until next summer.

Mozo

Mozo,

I think that you make some very good points. The issue of completion dates has been handled badly and Oasis and TASA in particular have been put back many times. It seems there is a bit of a split on this between people who are happy to wait and those who want to occupy - much of it goes to personal preferences and we would always advise which projects are beg¡hind and those that will complete on time.

Yes many of the photos you see are now easily 6 months old - the last few times I've been there it's been overcast and/or raining so we haven't updated. But I take your point and will make sure we upload some more recent pictures to the site.

As far as I'm aware the King is scheduled to come and open the resort in June and I think that they'll have to work hard to achieve this date but I've seen many times in Morocco how they can "throw men at a project" and get things done.

I totally agree with your last point. Both FADESA and Adohha have been awful about telling people what is going on. Some of this is due to institutional failures and some due to the mode of thinking that says "If we don't tell anyone what we're doing then we can't be proved wrong". It's depressing but you have to remember that we're not working in a sophisticated capitalist economy here and "Business" is still conducted in haphazard fashion.

In terms of promoting the resort it seems that Adohha will be no better than FADESA. I think a good DVD made at the start would have sold this resort around the world, as it's only when people see Saidia that they see the potential. We will be working with some of the other developers to get something produced.

[BigLog]

As some of you may already know, remember, don't care etc etc I was that sad person telling people how much Saidia was a big mistake.

Remember me ??

Remember the constant arguments I used to have with Dogbox, that friendly Housepricecrash permanent resident who posted around 4000+ posts about Saidia yet had never stepped foot in the place ??

Do you remember how often I'd talk about poor build quality ?? My pet subject, because I was in Construction (importing materials) and because I'd seen so much of it and was surrounded by it ??

Do you remember the number of people who'd 'shut me up' with their rudeness telling me to shut up cos I was wrong ??

Well, who's being proved right, now ??

I honestly forgot about Saidia because I returned from Morocco last year having spent 5 years of my life in the country.

But last night, my wife (who is Moroccan) came back from London from a business meeting with a Moroccan who's over in the UK for a few nights. *HE* brought up the subject of Saidia and he told my wife that it's one big piece of crap (I wasn't listening exactly to what my wife was saying so that wasn't exactly what he said, but she did say that he said the Golf courses are not going to be built or that there's going to be very little there in terms of what golf courses were promised, and the marina sounds very nice but it is absolutely nothing to shout about. Unless you are a Hype merchant and of course then it's the best in the Med !

Well, we didn't invest in anything in the end (so we're not VIs) and we came back to the UK and I'm glad that we did.

I'm not trying to gloat over people's misfortunes (I've had my own fair share of those in life), but I am only coming on here today because of that meeting my wife had last night and because I always knew that I was always right, and was being shot down for simply trying to advise people of the truth.

[Jesus of nazareth]

I remember you Big Loq, and I repeat, Saidia is not the best investment in Morocco.

[catara]

As far as I'm aware the King is scheduled to come and open the resort in June and I think that they'll have to work hard to achieve this date but I've seen many times in Morocco how they can "throw men at a project" and get things done.

The KIng, the King, The king.

He can come to open anything in June, Ceausescu was inaugurating things which had not even been started.

Do you ask 85K Euros? At least in 2006 those 85K Euros were 60K Pounds, now they are 85K Pounds...

Edited January 27, 2009 by catara

[Michael Sands]

As some of you may already know, remember, don't care etc etc I was that sad person telling people how much Saidia was a big mistake.

Remember me ??

Remember the constant arguments I used to have with Dogbox, that friendly Housepricecrash permanent resident who posted around 4000+ posts about Saidia yet had never stepped foot in the place ??

Do you remember how often I'd talk about poor build quality ?? My pet subject, because I was in Construction (importing materials) and because I'd seen so much of it and was surrounded by it ??

Do you remember the number of people who'd 'shut me up' with their rudeness telling me to shut up cos I was wrong ??

Well, who's being proved right, now ??

I honestly forgot about Saidia because I returned from Morocco last year having spent 5 years of my life in the country.

But last night, my wife (who is Moroccan) came back from London from a business meeting with a Moroccan who's over in the UK for a few nights. *HE* brought up the subject of Saidia and he told my wife that it's one big piece of crap (I wasn't listening exactly to what my wife was saying so that wasn't exactly what he said, but she did say that he said the Golf courses are not going to be built or that there's going to be very little there in terms of what golf courses were promised, and the marina sounds very nice but it is absolutely nothing to shout about. Unless you are a Hype merchant and of course then it's the best in the Med !

Well, we didn't invest in anything in the end (so we're not VIs) and we came back to the UK and I'm glad that we did.

I'm not trying to gloat over people's misfortunes (I've had my own fair share of those in life), but I am only coming on here today because of that meeting my wife had last night and because I always knew that I was always right, and was being shot down for simply trying to advise people of the truth.

Hi there Big Log,

I'm new to this forum so I don't know about your previous posts but there seems to be a fair amount of personality clashes and rudeness towards some posters. I don't want to get involved in that and I want to use this space as it was intended - for debate.

I note your point about construction quality, and yes the early FADESA units are poor. But I think the qualities are no different from any other emerging market indeed better than I have seen in Dubai and Egypt - and each construction in Morocco does come with a 10 year build guarantee - the only issue is that no one has ever tried to enforce this yet!

It seems that Saidia has a polarising effect on people, for and against it. I guess this is because the scale of the project and the fact that it's in a new area means some people simply don't see the point. The main trouble is that there is now so much conflicting (and incorrect) information coming out about the resort I can understand people being cautious.

For instance, your wife's friend says Saidia is a piece of crap, Far enough he's entitled to his view and no resort will ever appeal to everyone from Moroccans to a Moromons and everyone in between. But I must correct a couple of inaccuracies in what he's said - the golf courses are built and will be ready and the clubhouses and other facilities are being done now.

The Marina is the centrepiece and I agree that now it doesn't look great - but this is because it will need to be full of boats before it takes on any character. Then the place will be buzzing with people and activity and then it will be what we expect.

[BigLog]

Hi there Big Log,

I note your point about construction quality, and yes the early FADESA units are poor. But I think the qualities are no different from any other emerging market indeed better than I have seen in Dubai and Egypt - and each construction in Morocco does come with a 10 year build guarantee - the only issue is that no one has ever tried to enforce this yet!

Hi there Michael,

What I find funny (though not very unusual) is that when Dogbox was on this site, he'd talk endlessly about how, with Fadesa's backing and might, Saidia would be a resounding success, it'll be brilliant, yada yada.....

And now we have you (no offence) telling us that Fadesa construction quality was admittedly poor !!

You then have people like me, expats, who'd lived in the country commenting truthfully about the reality and you'd then get a scam artist like Dogbox, in on here roughly every 5 minutes hyping up the place though he'd never been there.

The 'real' investors (EuroScooby and another one who escapes my mind at the moment) are now looking slightly embarrassed I'd have thought (if they remember to forget their pride and release any denial).

And finally, you have the gullible, Mr Average's on here, looking for a place to invest and getting suckered in.

I know/knew Moroccan mentality/build quality/corruption/unfairness/theft/lack of education etc etc etc etc.

I KNOW for sure (okay, I'm convinced for sure), that the people who buy into this nonsense are going to lose a LOT of money.

Now, let's start again ?? Who are you all NOW going to believe ?? Me, or some other Dogbox replacement (Michael, others have been on here and tried like you are trying).

[BigLog]

Have a look at this for the sorts of things that CAN happen in Morocco and IT'S VERY HARD TO PUT RIGHT / GET JUSTICE.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QEAEBLZxnvA

[Michael Sands]

Have a look at this for the sorts of things that CAN happen in Morocco and IT'S VERY HARD TO PUT RIGHT / GET JUSTICE.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QEAEBLZxnvA

Hi there Big Log,

I've seen this video before and it does remind me of the problems that they've had with unlicensed building in Spain. But one advantage of buying a new build in an Moroccan Plan Azur is that this is very unlikely to happen.

I'm not here to "ramp up" Saidia - some people will always think it's brilliant and some will think it's madness. That's the way of the world. All I'd say to people is to go there have a look and then decide with the facts in front of them. It's not for you and I respect that - others may well love it and have a fantastic time there plus make some money on their property as well.

I'm not a blind optimist or a doomsayer - people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds.

[Jesus of nazareth]

Michael, so what if they pull a rabbit out of a hat regarding time scales, it doesnt matter.

Saidia is not the best place to invest in Morocco

Who in there right mind is going to invest in such a troubled resort

Most people want to invest in Tangier

http://www.propertycommunity.com/forum/mor...st-morocco.html

"Make money on there property", dont make me laugh, over the last three year prices have gone down on Saidia, its a good job there isnt a world recession or they would carry on dropping

WAAAA HAAAAA HAAAA HAAAAAA

NURSE--------------- fetch the screens for this one

Edited January 27, 2009 by Jesus of nazareth

[Michael Sands]

Michael, so what if they pull a rabbit out of a hat regarding time scales, it doesnt matter.

Saidia is not the best place to invest in Morocco

Who in there right mind is going to invest in such a troubled resort

Most people want to invest in Tangier

http://www.propertycommunity.com/forum/mor...st-morocco.html

Ali,

I quite agree, Tangier is a great place to invest, but if you want to have great beach holidays as well then Saidia is the best option.

[BigLog]

Hi there Big Log,

I've seen this video before and it does remind me of the problems that they've had with unlicensed building in Spain. But one advantage of buying a new build in an Moroccan Plan Azur is that this is very unlikely to happen.

I'm not here to "ramp up" Saidia - some people will always think it's brilliant and some will think it's madness. That's the way of the world. All I'd say to people is to go there have a look and then decide with the facts in front of them. It's not for you and I respect that - others may well love it and have a fantastic time there plus make some money on their property as well.

I'm not a blind optimist or a doomsayer - people are intelligent enough to make up their own minds.

Hi Michael,

This video isn't about unlicensed building though - and I wasn't trying to say that it'd happen to someone in Saidia.

What I was trying to illustrate was the lack of law / corruption in that country - therefore who'd want to buy a property there.

In case people are wondering what the video is about, it's about a guy (who's got CCTV installed at his holiday home), he goes back to his country (France I think) leaving the video cameras rolling. Whilst abroad, his NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOUR, who is tired of walking a few minutes around this guys house, decides to build a ROAD THROUGH IT !!!!!

And because the neighbour is so well connected in the government, he will get away with it.

Now, who still wants to buy a 2nd Holiday home in Morocco ??

P.S. Totally agree with Catara (re King - prefers Tangiers) and JoN (again, King prefers Tangiers) - how do I know that ??

[forestfire]

From the FT

Governments turn to barter deals as credit to secure food dries up

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/989c6876-ec11-11...00779fd2ac.html

Not good reading for anyone involved in Morocco.

That the government is forced to do secret deals and barter for food really is a sign of the times...

[catara]

Most people want to invest in Tangier

http://www.propertycommunity.com/forum/mor...st-morocco.html

Yes, all 19 of them...

[Jesus of nazareth]

Yes, all 19 of them...

Yes indeedy, and I think half a dozen of them have changed their minds since then! but if we could only get another three people to invest in Tangier, we could have a proper game of football.

[catara]

Yes indeedy, and I think half a dozen of them have changed their minds since then! but if we could only get another three people to invest in Tangier, we could have a proper game of football.

Seriously now, is it worth making a day-trip to Tanger during a Costa del Sol holiday? What can one see in a 1/2 day stay in Tanger?

Is is extremely crowded in August?

[Michael Sands]

Seriously now, is it worth making a day-trip to Tanger during a Costa del Sol holiday? What can one see in a 1/2 day stay in Tanger?

Is is extremely crowded in August?

Dear catara,

It's definitely worth taking time out from a holiday on the Costa del Sol to explore Tanger. Although in half a day you wouldn't have much time to see much real estate - and be warned the crossings in August are extremely busy with Moroccans returning from France and Spain for the summer. I'd avoid August if at all possible.

You would have a chance to see the change happening in the city and the gentrification of the older areas. It definitely has the feel of a city on the move and in ten years or so it will look very different.

[catara]

r. Although in half a day you wouldn't have much time to see much real estate - and be warned the crossings in August are extremely busy with Moroccans returning from France and Spain for the summer. I'd avoid August if at all possible.

You would have a chance to see the change happening in the city and the gentrification of the older areas. It definitely has the feel of a city on the move and in ten years or so it will look very different.

Hi Michael,

I am not planning to see any real estate in Tanger, just some sites. Which are the main attactions?

[euroscooby]

Hi there Michael,

What I find funny (though not very unusual) is that when Dogbox was on this site, he'd talk endlessly about how, with Fadesa's backing and might, Saidia would be a resounding success, it'll be brilliant, yada yada.....

And now we have you (no offence) telling us that Fadesa construction quality was admittedly poor !!

You then have people like me, expats, who'd lived in the country commenting truthfully about the reality and you'd then get a scam artist like Dogbox, in on here roughly every 5 minutes hyping up the place though he'd never been there.

The 'real' investors (EuroScooby and another one who escapes my mind at the moment) are now looking slightly embarrassed I'd have thought (if they remember to forget their pride and release any denial).

And finally, you have the gullible, Mr Average's on here, looking for a place to invest and getting suckered in.

I know/knew Moroccan mentality/build quality/corruption/unfairness/theft/lack of education etc etc etc etc.

I KNOW for sure (okay, I'm convinced for sure), that the people who buy into this nonsense are going to lose a LOT of money.

Now, let's start again ?? Who are you all NOW going to believe ?? Me, or some other Dogbox replacement (Michael, others have been on here and tried like you are trying).

It's good to see the 'old' crowd back together, all we need is dogbox and we can write another 300 pages.

As for me, well I remain invested, I remain convinced that the resort will fully open and be a great success. No hype, No BS, my initial reasons remain unchanged.

What has changed is the possibility of making any sort of capital return for 5 years plus. I accept that, I have a varied portfolio and as you guys know was never going to flip. It is a cash purchase and I am lucky enough to be able to sit on it.

No one knows where this crisis will take us and I can sleep with a spread of asset classes. Would I buy today? Well yes I would but of course I would expect to pay less , they are the breaks. I can live with that. Just as the BRIC markets investor or the shareholders in numerous companies have to suffer loss.

These threads will live on for many years, the result of the investment is unclear. Not a great start but I believe in a strong finish.

P.S. Not embarrassed, phlegmatic.

Edited January 28, 2009 by euroscooby

[BigLog]

It's good to see the 'old' crowd back together, all we need is dogbox and we can write another 300 pages.

P.S. Not embarrassed, phlegmatic.

I remembered the other one..... The Soup Dragon !!

Not sure whether phlegmatic is the right word - more like 'stunned into silence'.......

Yeah, good ole Dogbox, where is he now I wonder ?? Back on the C4 forum ??

Anyway ES, glad to see you're still in denial.....

[Jesus of nazareth]

I've heard dogbox is so embarrassed these days he puts on a false beard and combs his hair differently before he reads this forum.

And what happened to Soup?

Edited January 29, 2009 by Jesus of nazareth

[BigLog]

And what happened to Soup?

He lent dogbox his false beard

[Michael Sands]

Hi Michael,

I am not planning to see any real estate in Tanger, just some sites. Which are the main attactions?

Hi catara,

If you're planning a trip to Tangier the best way is to take the hydrofoil from Tarifa as it's a much more pleasant experience than the busy Algeciras (but a little more expensive about 50 - 70 euros depending on time of year).

You arrive in the ferry port in Tangier and it's here that some people form a negative opinion of Morocco as you'll often be greeted by all kinds of hustlers and guides, although it's much better now than it used to be. The best thing to do is avoid eye contact and calmly and firmly say "No Thank you" - they're not very persistent and will usually respect you.

If you like you can take a Grand Taxi (one of the mustard coloured Mercedes) and this shouldn't cost more than 50 Dirhams to go anywhere in town - always agree before getting in as a usual response is "Pay what you like" and this inevitably results in an argument at the other end!

Things to see

I like to take a taxi or train to Asilah for lunch - this small fishing village has lots of character and you can ease yourself into Morocco enjoying a lunch by the ramparts. The scenery on the way out is a bit like the South of France (less development) and you can see why the area is now so popular for residential tourism. If you take the longer route via Cap Spartel you can see the point where the Atlantic and the Med meet as the powerful currents push together, also on this route is the Grottes de Hercules - the caves where Hercules is reputed to have lived and where there is an opening to the sea which bears an uncanny resemblance to the shape of Africa.

In Tangier itself:

The Medina and Souks - Travel up the hill from the port and you'll find yourself in the souk area. There are the Gran and Petit Souks. The main square features the art deco Cinema Rif - now fully restored. If you want a tour look for one of the official guides - Ali who is usually in the Metropole Cafe is excellent.

Perhaps on of the most interesting things is to just walk the streets of Tangier - this way you find lots of interesting places and will undoubtedly end up chatting to the locals. Tangier was controlled by the League of Nations up until independence and as you walk around the town you can see how the InterWar Powers placed their mark on the city. The wide French boulevards in their sector; the Italian church in their sector and there's even a slice of England in the St Andrews Church.

If you'd like anymore info (hotels, restaurants etc...) just let me know.

Hope you enjoy the trip!