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hi there,

Forgive me for my lack of manners. However, I am going to jump right in here and ask for help anyone with legal experience on this website.

My landlord has sold the property off at auction and given me a 2 months notice so that the property is "vacant upon possession."

After the property has been sold the landlord decided to charge me for everything including work ntl did on the outside of the house (that they feel is not within keeping of the property although this was never mentioned in the contract). This also includes cleaning of the property including the skirting boards and bird poo on the outside door which they claim has chipped the paint.

First of all, the landlords have sold the property as is at auction! They are obviously being extremely greedy so we contacted the new buyers about what their plans are. And they are horrified at the amount of work our landlords claim need to be done. They have kindly written me a letter saying that they do not require any of the work on the list (outside of cleaning the carpet to be done) since they plan on gutting the property out and making it into business premises. This has been an incredible relief to my husband and I.

Also we have had a very difficult time in finding another place to live. Fortunately we have just found an appropriate place and rather then the 1st of April need an extension until the 8th of April in order to put the house in order (according to the new buyers requirements) The new buyers have also written that they do not need to complete on the house until th 11th of April and their soliciter has contacted the landlords soliciters regarding the completion date. Therefore would not be interfering with the sale of th house in any way.

Can the landlords still demand that we fix the house?

We have asked for an extension over the phone however the land lady has refused because she has already taken those days off of work.

If it means we will be homeless do we have the right to request and recieve an extension until a specified date?

And will we be able to recieve any of our deposit back?

Your input would be welcomed as well as any advice on how to write a letter that sounds serious to the landlords.

kind regards

And thank you for listening to my woes.

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Just stay put until it is convenient for you to leave as the landlord will need an order for possession from the County Court in order to evict you, and he can't apply for one of those until the 2 months notice expires. Even supposing he has not made any errors in the notice (many landlords make a mess of this aspect of the process), then the date for possession will be anywhere between 14 days and 6 weeks after the hearing. Following that, he would then have to apply for a bailiff's warrant and then get an appointment for a bailiff to attend to evict you. In summary, it always takes weeks, and often takes months. Obviously, you need to keep paying rent until the date you give up possession.

If he harasses or threatens you in an attempt to make you leave, then he is committing a criminal offence (Protection from Eviction Act 1977) and you should inform the tenancy protection team at your local council who might then take action against him, or at the very least, write him a stern letter in order to show him the error of his ways.

As for the work of the outside of the house. If it amounts to repairs, then by law, these are the landlord's responsibility (Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 s.11), but if the repairs are necessary because of some fault on your part (just for example, because you failed to keep the front door paintwork clean), then the landlord could potentially reclaim the costs of the work from you. Without more information, it is difficult to advise further on this issue.

Try not to worry.

Best of luck. :)

Edited by agent46

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hi there,

Forgive me for my lack of manners. However, I am going to jump right in here and ask for help anyone with legal experience on this website.

My landlord has sold the property off at auction and given me a 2 months notice so that the property is "vacant upon possession."

After the property has been sold the landlord decided to charge me for everything including work ntl did on the outside of the house (that they feel is not within keeping of the property although this was never mentioned in the contract). This also includes cleaning of the property including the skirting boards and bird poo on the outside door which they claim has chipped the paint.

First of all, the landlords have sold the property as is at auction! They are obviously being extremely greedy so we contacted the new buyers about what their plans are. And they are horrified at the amount of work our landlords claim need to be done. They have kindly written me a letter saying that they do not require any of the work on the list (outside of cleaning the carpet to be done) since they plan on gutting the property out and making it into business premises. This has been an incredible relief to my husband and I.

Also we have had a very difficult time in finding another place to live. Fortunately we have just found an appropriate place and rather then the 1st of April need an extension until the 8th of April in order to put the house in order (according to the new buyers requirements) The new buyers have also written that they do not need to complete on the house until th 11th of April and their soliciter has contacted the landlords soliciters regarding the completion date. Therefore would not be interfering with the sale of th house in any way.

Can the landlords still demand that we fix the house?

We have asked for an extension over the phone however the land lady has refused because she has already taken those days off of work.

If it means we will be homeless do we have the right to request and recieve an extension until a specified date?

And will we be able to recieve any of our deposit back?

Your input would be welcomed as well as any advice on how to write a letter that sounds serious to the landlords.

kind regards

And thank you for listening to my woes.

Couple of questions; what contract do you have? does it have a remaining term on the contract or do you pay month to month (periodic contract)? did the landlord advise you before you rented the property that it was up for sale? has he issued a formal section 21 notice?

I am not a lawyer but agent46 is legally trained and a pretty knowledgable fellow, between us we should be able to help a little, there are pletty of laws to protect you if you landlord is out of order don't worry

Edited by Matt Henson

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Thank you for your help in this matter.

honestly we are past pulling our hairs out and worrying!

The landlord did give us a proper 2 month notice to leave the property. I am more than confident it is legally binding as she is a complete nutcase (control freak).

Yes we did know the property was for sale at the beginning of our lease and despite not legally binded to show the property were more than accomodating in this regard.

We were on a 6 month lease however have automatically entered on a month to month lease at the end of our 6 month contract as of Feb. 1st.

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p.s. I really do not think we need to pay for everything in the property as well since they have sold it.. And the new owners have read the list of things required for me to fix and have written that they are all unnecassary.

Also I have a move out date for the new landlord too!

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p.s. I really do not think we need to pay for everything in the property as well since they have sold it.. And the new owners have read the list of things required for me to fix and have written that they are all unnecassary.

Also I have a move out date for the new landlord too!

Did she keep the deposit? and ask for receipts for work done, if she can't produce them and the house is now sold take her to the small claims court, a tenancy agreement can not include punative charges only legitimate cost base charges.

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Wish I could help more but the tenant depository scheme came into effect last April so your LL should not be holding it.

Use the search button and look up Flopsy. She has given lots of sound advice over deposits and small claims court.

Good luck Tigs.

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What has just been said is the key. If your AST began on or after (or you subsequently signed a new AST) the 6th April 2006 (it looks like it did from what you have said) then your deposit should have been held in one of the three TDS schemes. This is the law. If it isn’t then your control freak landlord is in for a well disserved "Slapping Down".

1) you are entitled to 100% of the deposit to be returned. This is the law.

2) you are also entitled to an additional sum of x3 the original deposit on top of the full deposit return. This is because your Landlord is a law breaking thief. This is also the law.

3) your LL is not allowed to use the s.21 procedure unless the deposit is protected. So no need to move out. This is also the law.

I would write a polite letter to your landlord explain the above. Give her 14 days to return the deposit (in full) and on top of that you would also like the x3 deposit as well please. If the money isn’t forthcoming, you can then take her to the county court for it.

There is no need to get into the deductions issues that you discussed earlier with this route as there will not be any deductions.

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Wow am I confused now!

Yes we signed an AST agreement in feb. 2007!

The contract makes no mention of where the deposit is held. And yes since this time we have signed an additional ast contract after april 2007 which was an extension of the original.

So are you saying that we can ask for our money back within 14 days?

And if she doesn't pay up also request 3 times the Original deposit?

What if she she does pay us back the full amount and she did not put the deposit in a TDS scheme?

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Wow am I confused now!

Yes we signed an AST agreement in feb. 2007!

The contract makes no mention of where the deposit is held. And yes since this time we have signed an additional ast contract after april 2007 which was an extension of the original.

So are you saying that we can ask for our money back within 14 days?

And if she doesn't pay up also request 3 times the Original deposit?

What if she she does pay us back the full amount and she did not put the deposit in a TDS scheme?

If you signed a further 6 month term after 6th April then your deposit should have been protected. You are entitled to it back in full and the x3 "compensation" as well. Even if she backs down and gives you the deposit back in full youy are still entitled to the x3 compensation anyway.

Have a read of the government information at http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/index.htm and then go get her.

Edited by Planner

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If you signed a further 6 month term after 6th April then your deposit should have been protected. You are entitled to it back in full and the x3 "compensation" as well. Even if she backs down and gives you the deposit back in full youy are still entitled to the x3 compensation anyway.

Have a read of the government information at http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TenancyDeposit/index.htm and then go get her.

It's true, and a judge HAS to award, I was wrong on this in earlier posts and the board put me to rights, go get her and screw her for every penny, it is LL's like her that give the good ones a bad name.

See the post below on fun with S21

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And a further thought..... shes sold the house with vacant possession. If you dig your heels in shes not going to be able to complete on the specified date. If the return of the deposit in full and the x3 on top doesnt seem enough for the trouble shes put you through, why not ask for £5,000? A small price to pay im sure for her being able to complete on time. You hold ALL the cards on this one. Milk it.

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Good point planner. The purchasors have been ever so kind to us regarding this transaction. Our landlord will delay the completion date as she is a control freak and this would hurt the purchasors as they need the property to store files for their business.

however, I do plan on giving the landlords hell for the way my family has been treated during our time here. And remind them that greed never pays at the end of the day!

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Be careful about being so ready to comply with that S.21. It isn’t legally binding. You have'nt been served the correct notice to leave, and equally you haven'nt served the required notice to leave. You would be much better staying put. I know it might be hard on the purchasers but that isnt your fault at the end of the day. Im not sure about you landlady being able to keep pushing completion forward and forward, we arent talking about days or weeks here, we are talking quite a few months for your deposit to be correctly protected and a correct s.21 to be issued (note that even if your deposit is protected now you would still be entitled to x3 "compensation").

I think you should submit any county court claim as a tenant. Heres a good link with some possible wording.

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...mp;#entry920394

Anymore querries then get back to us.

Edited by Planner

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Be careful about this deposit threat :

What if I paid a deposit before 6 April 2007?

If your tenancy started before 6 April 2007, then you will not normally be protected by the scheme. However, if you have been given a new tenancy agreement since that date, you should get advice. In this situation, the law does not specifically say that your landlord has to protect your deposit, but the Government has suggested that they should do so. An adviser may be able to help you come to an agreement with your landlord.

This is a quote from the "Shelter" website.

Edited by cartimandua51

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Must admit ive never come across that Shelter line before, how odd. All the other advice sites and the advice of the three tenancy deposit schemes is that when a new ast is issued the deposit should be protected. Shelter look like a loan voice in the wind...... worth keeping in mind though until the first couple of cases have gone through the small claims system (there are a couple I know of know- will let you know outcome).

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What has just been said is the key. If your AST began on or after (or you subsequently signed a new AST) the 6th April 2006 (it looks like it did from what you have said) then your deposit should have been held in one of the three TDS schemes.

I think the critical date is 6th April 2007 not 2006. Worth checking on govt website.

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I think the critical date is 6th April 2007 not 2006. Worth checking on govt website.

Quite right, typo on my part. Will make no difference in this case though.

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Must admit ive never come across that Shelter line before, how odd. All the other advice sites and the advice of the three tenancy deposit schemes is that when a new ast is issued the deposit should be protected. Shelter look like a loan [sic] voice in the wind...... worth keeping in mind though until the first couple of cases have gone through the small claims system (there are a couple I know of know- will let you know outcome).

I'm glad that I'm not alone in taking this view - ie: that tenancies started before 6th April 2007 but renewed after that date do not attract TDP.

Without boring you all with the technicalities, my argument goes a little something like this.....

1) The deposit (paid before 6th April 2007) is held on trust by either by the landlord or the agent.

2) On the renewal of a tenancy post 6th April 2007, the deposit remains in a bank account by either the landlord or the agent and is not, in any meaningful way, "paid" to them by the tenant.

3) The effect of signing a new tenancy when the deposit remains in the LL or LA's bank account is NOT that the money is paid to the LA/LL, but that instead, there is a declaration of new trusts over the deposit money on the terms of the tenancy agreement.

4) The TDP provisions of HA 2004 only apply to deposits "paid" after 6th April 2007 and so do not apply the above type of transaction, which is, as argued above, a declaration of new trusts over the deposit.

I had a good deal of correspondence with the ODPM (or whatever they were calling themselves that week), the TDP providers and the various letting industry professional bodies this time last year. Not a single one of those bodies could come up with any better argument than "well, the Govt guidance must be right". At that time, as far as I could tell, at least one of the TDP providers didn't even have any legally trained staff and it appeared that they did not have access to lawyers. However, I am aware that they now have a contract with a firm of solicitors to provide them with legal advice, so I wonder if they have re-considered this matter.

BTW 1: I also caught them out on the issue of demanding the LL's address for TDP purposes, but at least they dropped that ultra vires demand fairly quickly.

BTW 2: small point of clarification - when the LL has not protected the deposit or provided the prescribed info, the court does not necessarily have to order the LL to repay the deposit to the tenant, it can instead make an order that he deposit should be paid into the Custodial Scheme.

Edited by agent46

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I'm glad that I'm not alone in taking this view - ie: that tenancies started before 6th April 2007 but renewed after that date do not attract TDP.

Without boring you all with the technicalities, my argument goes a little something like this.....

1) The deposit (paid before 6th April 2007) is held on trust by either by the landlord or the agent.

2) On the renewal of a tenancy post 6th April 2007, the deposit remains in a bank account by either the landlord or the agent and is not, in any meaningful way, "paid" to them by the tenant.

3) The effect of signing a new tenancy when the deposit remains in the LL or LA's bank account is NOT that the money is paid to the LA/LL, but that instead, there is a declaration of new trusts over the deposit money on the terms of the tenancy agreement.

4) The TDP provisions of HA 2004 only apply to deposits "paid" after 6th April 2007 and so do not apply the above type of transaction, which is, as argued above, a declaration of new trusts over the deposit.

I had a good deal of correspondence with the ODPM (or whatever they were calling themselves that week), the TDP providers and the various letting industry professional bodies this time last year. Not a single one of those bodies could come up with any better argument than "well, the Govt guidance must be right". At that time, as far as I could tell, at least one of the TDP providers didn't even have any legally trained staff and it appeared that they did not have access to lawyers. However, I am aware that they now have a contract with a firm of solicitors to provide them with legal advice, so I wonder if they have re-considered this matter.

BTW 1: I also caught them out on the issue of demanding the LL's address for TDP purposes, but at least they dropped that ultra vires demand fairly quickly.

BTW 2: small point of clarification - when the LL has not protected the deposit or provided the prescribed info, the court does not necessarily have to order the LL to repay the deposit to the tenant, it can instead make an order that he deposit should be paid into the Custodial Scheme.

Agent46 quick question, how does the law work wrt to s2 1985 LTA in the case of trust owning the property. At the moment I have c/o "the agent" address, do I have a legal right to i) ask for all the names of all the trustees and ii) the actuall addresses and not the c/o address

Edited by Matt Henson

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Agent46 quick question, how does the law work wrt to s2 1985 LTA in the case of trust owning the property. At the moment I have c/o "the agent" address, do I have a legal right to i) ask for all the names of all the trustees and ii) the actuall addresses and not the c/o address

Ah, yes, sorry I forgot to answer this question in your other post.

Let me get back to you when I've had a peek at Hill & Redman.

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thank you for all your advice

to update anyone interested of my progress

I have written a letter to the landlords requesting an extension to remain in the property for the next 7 days. Obviously they had no choice but to accept this from us.

Their lawyer has also sent a threatening letter stating that despite selling the property we will be charged for any dilapidations.

I have responded with a letter stating that this is a breach of fudiciary duty and that I will take action to recover my deposit should they keep it without incurring any loss to themselves.

As whether or not they choose to fix the property is useless because the new owners intend on re-vamping the entire property.

I'll let anyone who is interested know on the outcome of my dispute!

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Good point planner. The purchasors have been ever so kind to us regarding this transaction. Our landlord will delay the completion date as she is a control freak and this would hurt the purchasors as they need the property to store files for their business.

however, I do plan on giving the landlords hell for the way my family has been treated during our time here. And remind them that greed never pays at the end of the day!

If she has sold the property at auction she cannot delay the completion date. She can not complete and then be served with a notice that she must complete within 10 days (and be liable for interest normally about 5% above the base rate and extra expenses during that time). If she doesnt complete by the end of the 10 days notice (with vacant possession) they can sue her XXXX off.

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thank you for all your advice

to update anyone interested of my progress

I have written a letter to the landlords requesting an extension to remain in the property for the next 7 days. Obviously they had no choice but to accept this from us.

Their lawyer has also sent a threatening letter stating that despite selling the property we will be charged for any dilapidations.

I have responded with a letter stating that this is a breach of fudiciary duty and that I will take action to recover my deposit should they keep it without incurring any loss to themselves.

As whether or not they choose to fix the property is useless because the new owners intend on re-vamping the entire property.

I'll let anyone who is interested know on the outcome of my dispute!

I think your being very understanding and accomodating, your also giving up your biggest bargaining tool - vacant possession. I hope it doesnt come back to bite you. Let us know further developments.

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