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Binge Drinking, Increasing Smoking, Irresponsible Attitude To Debt In The Young...

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I understand that the Daily Wail blames binge drinking for everything and that there is always a moral panic on about something. However, these are my own observations and I'd really like your feedback on them.

The facts

1 - People do seem to drink a lot more now than 10-15 years ago. My drinking has certainly gone up and, ime, everyone I know is drinking more too. I think it's become a lot more socially normal to drink at home now (if you want anecdotal proof of that, just meet women from dating sites and you'll see what I mean)

2 - Smoking is starting to rise again as it becomes clear through evidence that up to 8% of the population are "secret smokers".

3 - Debt, both secured and unsecured, are at record levels.

4 - There exists an entire generation locked out of owning a home.

5 - Although it was bad under the Tories, the NuLab Govt have shattered manufacturing.

The reason

The big reason is House Price Inflation. The older generations now know that the younger generations will pay for their retirement with huge cash bonuses from either the sale of their houses and debt linked to the growth in equity.

Why should the young behave responsibly? It must feel like their noses are pressed against the glass of a shop window eyeing all the spoils enjoyed by others with no real reason why they should be rewarded. If I was young, I would drink and smoke myself silly (well, I already do that!), I would frontload a few happy irresponsible years with lending I could never repay.

Unsecured debt has soared, regardless of whether or not an individual owns a home. Students now have to hock themselves up to £20K in debt to get a degree now. Interesting, degrees have been devalued because of the sheer number of them but they have never cost the individual so much. Although this varies from country to country, it seems and feels that it is a peculiarly British "need" to own a home - it feels like you've achieved something and got an element of control over your life.

The young have been denied the right to enjoy what their parents and grandparents enjoyed. Is this the first time in human history that the new generation is materially poorer than the preceeding ones?

Could this explain the rise in "celebrity" culture? A feeling that, no matter how much graft or learning a person does, the only way to achieve something is to be on Big Brother or a master of the universe in finance?

Ramble over. I despair for the younger generations, and it's not their fault.

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It's because of education.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Basically, the vast majority of people have been subjected to horendous psychological abiuse since the age of 4 or 5, also called education. This leaves them unable to think, plan or delay gratification and is by design. The powers that be wanted feckless idiots who would respond to the latest advert to keep consumer corporatism and debt slavery going, so they set about making people retarded en masse.

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Seems like a perfectly reasonable analysis to me. My experience in the South East of England is similar to yours. There is a party till you drop mentality around and it’s not just the young folk who seem to behave like this. I think we are all going to wake up to the ‘mother of all hangovers’ on Monday 17th March. Even my Bullish colleagues at work are starting to look rather down and grumpy these days.

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I understand that the Daily Wail blames binge drinking for everything and that there is always a moral panic on about something. However, these are my own observations and I'd really like your feedback on them.

The facts

1 - People do seem to drink a lot more now than 10-15 years ago. My drinking has certainly gone up and, ime, everyone I know is drinking more too. I think it's become a lot more socially normal to drink at home now (if you want anecdotal proof of that, just meet women from dating sites and you'll see what I mean)

2 - Smoking is starting to rise again as it becomes clear through evidence that up to 8% of the population are "secret smokers".

3 - Debt, both secured and unsecured, are at record levels.

4 - There exists an entire generation locked out of owning a home.

5 - Although it was bad under the Tories, the NuLab Govt have shattered manufacturing.

The reason

The big reason is House Price Inflation. The older generations now know that the younger generations will pay for their retirement with huge cash bonuses from either the sale of their houses and debt linked to the growth in equity.

Why should the young behave responsibly? It must feel like their noses are pressed against the glass of a shop window eyeing all the spoils enjoyed by others with no real reason why they should be rewarded. If I was young, I would drink and smoke myself silly (well, I already do that!), I would frontload a few happy irresponsible years with lending I could never repay.

Unsecured debt has soared, regardless of whether or not an individual owns a home. Students now have to hock themselves up to £20K in debt to get a degree now. Interesting, degrees have been devalued because of the sheer number of them but they have never cost the individual so much. Although this varies from country to country, it seems and feels that it is a peculiarly British "need" to own a home - it feels like you've achieved something and got an element of control over your life.

The young have been denied the right to enjoy what their parents and grandparents enjoyed. Is this the first time in human history that the new generation is materially poorer than the preceeding ones?

Could this explain the rise in "celebrity" culture? A feeling that, no matter how much graft or learning a person does, the only way to achieve something is to be on Big Brother or a master of the universe in finance?

Ramble over. I despair for the younger generations, and it's not their fault.

Completely agree on this. The previous generation like to sneer at the young for their feckless ways etc. But let us have a look at this Aristotle-style.

(1) All humans are generally born as a blank page

(2) From (1), the current generation of young do not have intrinsically any more propensity to misbehaviour/evil/whatever compared to previous generations (no one would seriously argue against this)

(3) Consequently, any difference in behaviour between generations is the result of the environmental differences the generations have experienced

(4) The environment that one generation experiences is primarily the product of the decisions of the previous generation

(5) Therefore, the behaviour of the current young generation is primarily the responsibility of the previous generation.

Or to put it another way; it is the fault of the boomers. It is all very well when they moan at youngsters for getting drunk, in debt or whatever, but as the OP says - in the absence of any real stake in society (or the prospect of one), why the f**k should they be expected to play the game?

Edited by marko

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It's because of education.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Basically, the vast majority of people have been subjected to horendous psychological abiuse since the age of 4 or 5, also called education. This leaves them unable to think, plan or delay gratification and is by design. The powers that be wanted feckless idiots who would respond to the latest advert to keep consumer corporatism and debt slavery going, so they set about making people retarded en masse.

I think this about sums it up.

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The young have been denied the right to enjoy what their parents and grandparents enjoyed

Spot on. I think you got it. It's about quality of life and the standard of living. By some back door manouvers or quirk of fate, this country has not seen such inequality for a long long time. I hope the younger generation likes Dickens, they should be able to relate. It's as if the previous generation can see the trouble ahead, and are running with the money.

Education? No it's not education at all. It's house prices, pure and simple.

But I take an even dimmer view. I believe the fall of the British empire is far from over. We are witnessing the decline of this country. It's just speeding up at the moment, and therefore more noticable. The generations of the future won't know how things previously were. What you never had, you don't miss.

To my mind there really is only one answer for the intelligent young people around here who don't own property. Wait for a crash, OR get the hell out of this country. Just remember, while you're waiting to buy, you won't get those years of your life back. Scrimp and save by all means, but don't expect a refund for effort spent. You're swimming hard to just stay afloat, not get out of the water.

Personally I think the crash is inevitable, but won't solve the greater problems unfortunately. This will still be the rip-off capital of the world. There's plenty of wealth here yes, but you're not going to see it. I don't see how there could be any better answer than emigration (if you can).

If a ship is sinking, do you want to "wait a bit" to see how things pan out?

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It's because of education.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Basically, the vast majority of people have been subjected to horendous psychological abiuse since the age of 4 or 5, also called education. This leaves them unable to think, plan or delay gratification and is by design. The powers that be wanted feckless idiots who would respond to the latest advert to keep consumer corporatism and debt slavery going, so they set about making people retarded en masse.

How does knowing about the formation of an oxbow lake make me want the same handbag as Coleen McLoughlin?

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The Daily Mail's hypocricy and the similarity in the means by which many Britons pursue their lifestyle choice would be clarified by introducing the term 'Binge Borrowing'. Their readers may not be scooped up off the pavement on a Saturday night but in their selfish, self-indulgent 4x4s, their lie-to-buy mortgages, their credit card shopping sprees and their cheap, polluting budget airline flights they show the same recklessness, stupidity and greed. When things go wrong they similarly want to be scooped up -- not by the police or an ambulance but by the government or the Bank of England. Like agressive chavs they force their lifestyle choice on everyone around them, shouting about their 'property portfolio', flaunting their MEWed bling and swilling down cheap credit until they vomit it up on the High Street. Binge drinkers and binge borrowers both deserve their painful hangovers.

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It's because of education.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Basically, the vast majority of people have been subjected to horendous psychological abiuse since the age of 4 or 5, also called education. This leaves them unable to think, plan or delay gratification and is by design. The powers that be wanted feckless idiots who would respond to the latest advert to keep consumer corporatism and debt slavery going, so they set about making people retarded en masse.

I must admit I prefer Ivan Illich for a less tub-thumping & more erudite approach to deschooling / unschooling

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I understand that the Daily Wail blames binge drinking for everything and that there is always a moral panic on about something. However, these are my own observations and I'd really like your feedback on them.

nothing demonstrates this more than cable TV program 'Colleens Real Women'

these program inspired young women, by (under the guide of high acheiver colleen rooney) shows them how to go about their daily lives.

things such as looking good, shopping and trying things on seems to be the main feature.

"girls, heres what to do" says colleen, and then they go to either liverpool city shopping centre or manchester and ambush semi pretty girls, to model expensive clothes.

after all, this is what real women do.

theres no education. no showing of female medical students or doctors. no women firefighters. no women managers.

nope. just pretty girls out shopping for clothes, so later they can go to the 'club' and stand there looking pretty, or dancing sexily to sugarbabes.

god help any women that are not model material.

these women are scum.

now girls, lets try on some more footballer priced dresses....

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nothing demonstrates this more than cable TV program 'Colleens Real Women'

these program inspired young women, by (under the guide of high acheiver colleen rooney) shows them how to go about their daily lives.

things such as looking good, shopping and trying things on seems to be the main feature.

"girls, heres what to do" says colleen, and then they go to either liverpool city shopping centre or manchester and ambush semi pretty girls, to model expensive clothes.

after all, this is what real women do.

theres no education. no showing of female medical students or doctors. no women firefighters. no women managers.

nope. just pretty girls out shopping for clothes, so later they can go to the 'club' and stand there looking pretty, or dancing sexily to sugarbabes.

god help any women that are not model material.

these women are scum.

now girls, lets try on some more footballer priced dresses....

To my mind that just demonstrates that most people are as thick as two short planks, totally unable to think for themselves.

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To my mind that just demonstrates that most people are as thick as two short planks, totally unable to think for themselves.

..because they have been trained not to .....

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Oh yes, the poor little victim society.

No, they rreally have. The education system has been delibearetly designed to turn almost everyone who goes into it into a drooling idiot. It's a decade plus of psychological techniques designed to turn a free thinking, vibrant naturally curious human being into a confused moron, an almost schizophrenic with conflicting ideas and no ability to think rationally.

it works.

Most people think, to take a few fictions at random -

Countries exist. Democracy is a good thing. Money is bits of paper, not commodities. One must obey the law. The world is heirarchical n nature. Expert opinion exists. Reality is a subjective phenomenon. All opinions are equally valid.....etc etc

Edited by Injin

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No, they rreally have. The education system has been delibearetly designed to turn almost everyone who goes into it into a drooling idiot. It's a decade plus of psychological techniques designed to turn a free thinking, vibrant naturally curious human being into a confused moron, an almost schizophrenic with conflicting ideas and no ability to think rationally.

it works.

Most people think, to take a few fictions at random -

Countries exist. Democracy is a good thing. Money is bits of paper, not commodities. One must obey the law. The world is heirarchical n nature. Expert opinion exists. Reality is a subjective phenomenon. All opinions are equally valid.....etc etc

But even so, some people still manage to think for themselves and question things. They might not necessarily come to the correct conclusion (myself included) but they still try.

Perhaps some people can be taught not to think, but they were probably as thick as two short planks to begin with anyway.

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No, they rreally have. The education system has been delibearetly designed to turn almost everyone who goes into it into a drooling idiot. It's a decade plus of psychological techniques designed to turn a free thinking, vibrant naturally curious human being into a confused moron, an almost schizophrenic with conflicting ideas and no ability to think rationally.

it works.

Most people think, to take a few fictions at random -

Countries exist. Democracy is a good thing. Money is bits of paper, not commodities. One must obey the law. The world is heirarchical n nature. Expert opinion exists. Reality is a subjective phenomenon. All opinions are equally valid.....etc etc

its true.

they have / attempting to, take the human nature out of a population, thus making them easier to control and manage.

for some reason, the current stable of politicians feel they are superior to us, and are not their in place because of our votes (systems corrupt - no choices)

but rather like its some kind of 'destiny'. how many times to politicians offer us 'visions' and tony blair praying for guidance.

cameron mugging to the cameras a false pretentious and untruthful image of family man, caring man. not selfish man.

they are no longer their to manage our affairs for us, rather now - dictate to us their affairs.

they are bent, on the take and corrupt. probably since mid thatcher they lost liability and shame.

now we see problems in which they dont listen to us. people dont want it, they even protest, but they do it anyway because they make the choices.

polaris, iraq, 300 new laws, ID cards, smoking bans. the number of things they have forced upon us is incredible for a so called democracy.

eventually if left unchecked it will be illegal to post on forums like this.

you will be forced to eat 5 a day or lose NHS cover. forced to exercise. forced to work and banned from free thinking.

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But even so, some people still manage to think for themselves and question things. They might not necessarily come to the correct conclusion (myself included) but they still try.

Perhaps some people can be taught not to think, but they were probably as thick as two short planks to begin with anyway.

Most of what humans do is learned.

if you think that John Stuart Mill and some council estate kid are different in any basic way when their life begins..... then the end point of that thinking is totalitarian fascism, because some are men, and some are supermen. It's nonsense.

Kids are born without much learned. Then comes language - if you place any child with any people on earth they will learn their language perfectly in months. Stick any healthy, normal child in a family of philosopher, musicions, bakers whatever then you will get the obvious conclusion - a baking philsophising piano player. Called Bert. or something.

Most of what people know is learned, and most people learn at school. If they are ineffective, stupid, indolent, confused and irrational we must look to their education.

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Most of what humans do is learned.

if you think that John Stuart Mill and some council estate kid are different in any basic way when their life begins..... then the end point of that thinking is totalitarian fascism, because some are men, and some are supermen. It's nonsense.

Kids are born without much learned. Then comes language - if you place any child with any people on earth they will learn their language perfectly in months. Stick any healthy, normal child in a family of philosopher, musicions, bakers whatever then you will get the obvious conclusion - a baking philsophising piano player. Called Bert. or something.

Most of what people know is learned, and most people learn at school. If they are ineffective, stupid, indolent, confused and irrational we must look to their education.

But what stops them from questioning things later in life ? If there is some conspiracy to manipulate the masses by some elite group then I can fully understand why they want that. Most people are happy to just p1ss away their lives grazing like cattle. Pointless.

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But what stops them from questioning things later in life ? If there is some conspiracy to manipulate the masses by some elite group then I can fully understand why they want that. Most people are happy to just p1ss away their lives grazing like cattle. Pointless.

Everyone else.

I don't believe in countries.

I don't believe in the state.

I don't believe in the value of bits of paper.

Tough shit though, cos I can't fight everyone else, it's simply not possible to do. I can mount small hit and run victories, and post ideas on forums, even wipe away "debts" which are entirely imganisry. What I can't do is overcome 15+ years of indoctrination for everyone else I meet.

Accepting the truth means accepting that prety much everyone has been lying to you your whole life, including your parents. It's not something that many people can take.

Still true though.

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"M.T.V.-Get Off The Air"

Fun Fun Fun in the fluffy chair

Flame up the herb

Woof down the beer

[click!]

Hi

I'm your video DJ

I always talk like I'm wigged out on quaaludes

I wear a satin baseball jacket everywhere I go

My job is to help destroy

What's left of your imagination

By feeding you endless doses

Of sugar-coated mindless garbage

So don't create

Be sedate

Be a vegetable at home

And thwack on that dial

If we have our way even you will believe

This is the future of rock and roll

How far will you go

How low will you stoop

To tranquilize our minds with your sugar-coated swill

You've turned rock and roll rebellion

Into Pat Boone sedation

Making sure nothing's left to the imagination

M.T.V. Get off the

M.T.V. Get off the

M.T.V. Get off the air

Get off the air

See the latest rejects from the muppet show

Wag their tits and their dicks

As they lip-synch on screen

There's something I don't like

About a band who always smiles

Another tax write-off

For some schmuck who doesn't care

M.T.V. Get off the air

And so it was

Our beloved corporate gods

Claimed they created rock video

Allowing it to sink as low in one year

As commercial TV has in 25

"It's the new frontier," they say

It's wide open, anything can happen

But you've got a lot of nerve

To call yourself a pioneer

When you're too god-damn conservative

To take real chances.

Tin-eared

Graph-paper brained accountants

Instead of music fans

Call all the shots at giant record companies now

The lowest common denominator rules

Forget honesty

Forget creativity

The dumbest buy the mostest

That's the name of the game

But sales are slumping

And no one will say why

Could it be they put out one too many lousy records?!?

M.T.V.-Get off the air!

NOW

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actually I think the BBC is a pretty good brain washing machine. You can see this pervasive BBC-think throughout all its output.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, just a form of group-think.

Edited by JimmyMac

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Guest An Bearin Bui
actually I think the BBC is a pretty good brain washing machine. You can see this pervasive BBC-think throughout all its output.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, just a form of group-think.

Group-think is the key word here I'd say - most people don't think for themselves, they think with their peer group. If everyone else is doing it, then they will too even if it doesn't fit their beliefs or priorities. I suppose that's what the word "sheeple" was coined for but it is true that most people like to 'hunt in packs' and measure themselves by what their peer group does. If everyone in their family, circle of friends and work colleagues has a huge mortgage, credit card debt, a binge-drinking habit and no savings then the average person is happy to do the same.

Few and far between there'll be the individualists who follow their own rules and think for themselves but the majority of people just want to fit in with a peer group and find it hard to stick to their own priorities. This is what has driven the housing boom too - a comment like "oh you're still 'just' renting, are you?" was enough to spur most people to go round to their local Northern Rock for a 125% mortgage on a new-build shoebox where the monthly payments would take up 50% of their take-home pay. Peer pressure is the main factor in most people's lives so whether they're clever or as thick as two short planks, the group-think will get them in the end.

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Completely agree on this. The previous generation like to sneer at the young for their feckless ways etc. But let us have a look at this Aristotle-style.

(1) All humans are generally born as a blank page

(2) From (1), the current generation of young do not have intrinsically any more propensity to misbehaviour/evil/whatever compared to previous generations (no one would seriously argue against this)

(3) Consequently, any difference in behaviour between generations is the result of the environmental differences the generations have experienced

(4) The environment that one generation experiences is primarily the product of the decisions of the previous generation

(5) Therefore, the behaviour of the current young generation is primarily the responsibility of the previous generation.

Or to put it another way; it is the fault of the boomers. It is all very well when they moan at youngsters for getting drunk, in debt or whatever, but as the OP says - in the absence of any real stake in society (or the prospect of one), why the f**k should they be expected to play the game?

Continuing that argument, the grandparents shaped the parents' generation, and the great-grandparents shaped the grandparents, and ultimately we can blame Adam and Eve or Lucy, depending on your outlook :P

And personal responsibility can go hang.

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IMO, you learn more once you start working, I am all for day release, apprenticeships and large private companys investing in training their workforce to progress and prosper. (win, win situation)...maybe on job training could even be subsidised, if it is not already done so.

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  • 295 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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