Are We Heading Back To Dickensian Era

[Marek]

As the title suggests.....

Are we heading back to Dickensian era? 3 families will share 1 house ie only 1 room per family etc.

[IDN]

As the title suggests.....

Are we heading back to Dickensian era? 3 families will share 1 house ie only 1 room per family etc.

the poles are already there! 11 to a single room or pack the entire family into a shed!

i dont think it'll catch on tho!

[Leonard Hatred]

Are We Heading Back To Dickensian Era

Yep. Working people packed into tiny hovels while rich people and politicians get even richer.

[General Melchett]

They did have nice hats.

Looking forward to some milinery ramping soon

[chichi]

They did have nice hats.

Looking forward to some milinery ramping soon

LOL Let them eat hats!

Ah it'll solve the unemployment figures if we needed more chimney sweeps

[_w_]

As the title suggests.....

Are we heading back to Dickensian era? 3 families will share 1 house ie only 1 room per family etc.

On a more serious note, why not? The type of income 'equality' we've enjoyed this last century is in the process of being reversed.

[Injin]

On a more serious note, why not? The type of income 'equality' we've enjoyed this last century is in the process of being reversed.

Mostly because people know that an alternative is viable. It's one thing to convince people that society won't implode if they stop doffing their caps and tugging their forelocks before it's been tried and shown to work and quite another after it has.

Or, another way - People have put up with erosion of liberties, income inequality, loss of opportunity, undercutting from abroad during good times. The chances of them putting up with it in bad times are nil.

[Fishfinger]

Does this mean we get the Empire back?

Will we have steam loco's as well?

[JumboMills]

As the title suggests.....

Are we heading back to Dickensian era? 3 families will share 1 house ie only 1 room per family etc.

There are too many period dramas on TV. They are infiltrating public consciousness, and people are beginning to blur real-life and TV.

Could you imagine if someone stood up and asked the same question in PMQ's.

[Austin Allegro]

Consider yourself, well out

Consider yourself, out of homeownership

We don't wanna have, no fuss

If you, Don't, Like it live in a bloomin' bus!

[General Melchett]

LOL Let them eat hats!

hats can be very tasty with salt and vinegar and a splodge of tomato sauce.

Just ask Krusty in a fw weeks, she'll tell you.

[silver surfer]

The facts show that we've been heading that way since the 1970's.

Declining real living have been disguised by longer working hours and the massive influx of women into the workplace, however both those palliatives are now pretty much exhausted. Plus we'll soon start to see the practical effects of declining private sector pension entitlements, which are ommitted from most calculations of wage-earner living standards.

The other reason that clearly supports the case that we're drifting backwards is growing inequality, if you're in the top fifth of society you're having a ball, if your in the second fifth you've just about held flat, below that and you've gone backward.

So the total economic pie, which since the later years of the industrial revolution has doubled every generation, with even some dazzling interludes like the 50's and 60's where it doubled every twenty years, has now stalled and is slipping into reverse. And in addition the benefits of that shrinking pie are increasingly accruing to fewer and fewer people.

[Mr Nice]

Mostly because people know that an alternative is viable. It's one thing to convince people that society won't implode if they stop doffing their caps and tugging their forelocks before it's been tried and shown to work and quite another after it has.

Or, another way - People have put up with erosion of liberties, income inequality, loss of opportunity, undercutting from abroad during good times. The chances of them putting up with it in bad times are nil.

throughout history there have been several times where rights etc have reversed severly.

Roman to dark ages is one.

in fact, a severe fall can help to precipitate it.

[Mr Nice]

The facts show that we've been heading that way since the 1970's.

Declining real living have been disguised by longer working hours and the massive influx of women into the workplace, however both those palliatives are now pretty much exhausted. Plus we'll soon start to see the practical effects of declining private sector pension entitlements, which are ommitted from most calculations of wage-earner living standards.

The other reason that clearly supports the case that we're drifting backwards is growing inequality, if you're in the top fifth of society you're having a ball, if your in the second fifth you've just about held flat, below that and you've gone backward.

So the total economic pie, which since the later years of the industrial revolution has doubled every generation, with even some dazzling interludes like the 50's and 60's where it doubled every twenty years, has now stalled and is slipping into reverse. And in addition the benefits of that shrinking pie are increasingly accruing to fewer and fewer people.

thats only applies to the west though.

China, India et al. would say that these last years have been some of the most emancipating times that they have seen for centuries.

[silver surfer]

thats only applies to the west though.

China, India et al. would say that these last years have been some of the most emancipating times that they have seen for centuries.

Very true, India is adding about 40m people to their middle class each year, and over the last ten years China has lifted 800m people out of wretched, sub $2 a day poverty.

In the UK however the middle classes are slowly being strangled, and in the US those at the very poorest margins of society grow in number each year.

[@contradevian]

In the UK however the middle classes are slowly being strangled, and in the US those at the very poorest margins of society grow in number each year.

I first read Great Expectations as a novel about the misery of moving on. But it's also, as disturbingly, about the misery of staying put. Behind Pip is his shadow, the slouching Orlick, who smashes things up for pleasure and meets any attempt at government with rage. Orlick is a prospective member of the "mob", but he is also created by envy and exclusion and injustice (Pip gets him sacked from his job). When Pip dines with Jaggers, his London lawyer, he is asked to admire the caged strength in the housekeeper's hands. What would happen, we're made to wonder, if the underclasses really flexed their muscles?

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0...rticle_continue

[Injin]

throughout history there have been several times where rights etc have reversed severly.

Roman to dark ages is one.

in fact, a severe fall can help to precipitate it.

Backwards.

Rights first, then productivity follows. It was only after the enlightenment philosophers persuaded the bulk of humanity that treating other people as vaguely equal was the way to go that we had the enormous growth.

ideas - actions - results - new ideas.

Some wag came up with the nifty idea of measuring results against reality rather than whim, religion or public opinion. As this idea dies out, our soceities implode on all levels.

[Guest Steve Cook]

Backwards.

Rights first, then productivity follows. It was only after the enlightenment philosophers persuaded the bulk of humanity that treating other people as vaguely equal was the way to go that we had the enormous growth.

ideas - actions - results - new ideas.

Some wag came up with the nifty idea of measuring results against reality rather than whim, religion or public opinion. As this idea dies out, our soceities implode on all levels.

Backwards

Geography/geology leads to

Ecomomy leads to

Culture leads to

Ideas such as "Equal Rights"

Only when there is a sufficiently vibrant economy such that people feel economically secure will they worry about otherwise inconsequential things like equality and rights

When times are tough, people are more interested in personal secutiry and maintaining the staus quo re: soical order, which is why, under such circumstances, they will tolerate a dictatorship.

Which is why, in most pre-industrial societies, there aint no such thing as democracy.

Don't get me wrong, we barely have little more than the illusion of democracy in the so called "democratic" west. However, the extent to which we do have at least a semblamce of it is largely down to having a relatively prosperous (albeit until very recently) economy and a compex economic structure such that you have to educate people to be able to be economically productive. As soon as they become educated, they get all awkward and start asking for equality, fraternity etc.

Again, though, such education for the masses has only become possible/necessary because of our powerhouse economies.

In other words, facism (or some other form of dictatorship) is the usual order of things when times are less than prosperous for the majority of people. The very opposite of a free market of ideas or ecomimic activity. Though it sickens me to say it.

Steve

Edited March 12, 2008 by Steve Cook

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

Very true, India is adding about 40m people to their middle class each year, and over the last ten years China has lifted 800m people out of wretched, sub $2 a day poverty.

In the UK however the middle classes are slowly being strangled, and in the US those at the very poorest margins of society grow in number each year.

Hardly surprising given how much the dollar's fallen.

[Marek]

There are too many period dramas on TV. They are infiltrating public consciousness, and people are beginning to blur real-life and TV.

Could you imagine if someone stood up and asked the same question in PMQ's.

I don't have a TV

[Injin]

Backwards

Geography/geology leads to

Ecomomy leads to

Culture leads to

Ideas such as "Equal Rights"

Only when there is a sufficiently vibrant economy such that people feel economically secure will they worry about otherwise inconsequential things like equality and rights

When times are tough, people are more interested in personal secutiry and maintaining the staus quo re: soical order, which is why, under such circumstances, they will tolerate a dictatorship.

Which is why, in most pre-industrial societies, there aint no such thing as democracy.

Don't get me wrong, we barely have little more than the illusion of democracy in the so called "democratic" west. However, the extent to which we do have at least a semblamce of it is largely down to having a relatively prosperous (albeit until very recently) economy and a compex economic structure such that you have to educate people to be able to be economically productive. As soon as they become educated, they get all awkward and start asking for equality, fraternity etc.

Again, though, such education for the masses has only become possible/necessary because of our powerhouse economies.

In other words, facism (or some other form of dictatorship) is the usual order of things when times are less than prosperous for the majority of people. The very opposite of a free market of ideas or ecomimic activity. Though it sickens me to say it.

Steve

Yes, you are completely correct. Facsism is the order of the day when people are less than prospersous, but your cause is wrong - it';s the fascism that causes the economic malaise and that's because only freedom brings prosperity.

[ThePiltdownMan]

Are we heading back to Dickensian era? 3 families will share 1 house ie only 1 room per family etc.

What would cause that to happen?

A massive increase in the population

or

Many houses destroyed

or

Many people moving into shared accommodation and leaving their former homes empty

I really can't see why this would occur.

[Guest Steve Cook]

Yes, you are completely correct. Facsism is the order of the day when people are less than prospersous, but your cause is wrong - it';s the fascism that causes the economic malaise and that's because only freedom brings prosperity.

Well (God help me), I am going to almost agree with you there Injin.

I do fully agree that facism will perpetuate and even entrench economic retardation. However, facism is only able to find a home in an ecomony that is already not delivering the possibility of prosperity to it's people in the first place.

I guess what I am saying, Injin, is that facism is not the fundamental cause of economic malaise, However, it will certainly perpetuate it and even cause further deterioration.

Though, there is the alternative argument that goes something along the lines of stating that it takes a dictatorship in times of severe economic disruption to keep a society together and maintain social order. Without that, an economy is finished anyway.

Steve

Edited March 12, 2008 by Steve Cook

[juvenal]

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0...rticle_continue

The welcome return of King Mob - advancing with flaming torches on the terrified folk of Mayfair, Kensington and Downing Street...

[Marek]

What would cause that to happen?

A massive increase in the population

or

Many houses destroyed

or

Many people moving into shared accommodation and leaving their former homes empty

I really can't see why this would occur.

A massive increase in the population

Already happening

Many houses destroyed

Not destroyed but not enough houses are being built