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Starcrossed

Why Is There No Economic Debate?

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It struck me this evening that in the face of the economic crisis there is no real public debate.

In the 70's and 80's every twist of economic fortunes was argued about in the media, in Parliament and in homes. Was there too much state intervention? Too little? How important was a balance of payments deficit? Inflation versus employment, that kind of thing.

Yet today, while the economy of the western world crumbles there is no debate out there.

Not being a conspiracy theorist I don't want to believe this is because our 'masters' are engineering some kind of plot.

If not that, what could the reason be?

My personal starting point is that there is a general distrust of intelligence in both politics and the media. Big ideas and discussions aren't allowed. The fiendish complexity of CDOs etc don't help get the crunch to 'ordinary people', for instance.

However, this theory only goes so far - the basic principles of the credit boom are not about big ideas, rather in profound but simple truths. That people spent more than they earned. It's a moral issue as much as it is about ideas. This moral aspect has come from a general inability of people to take responsibility for their own decisions.

So we have a politics and a media that have been reluctant to burst the collective delusions of 'the people' for fear that these very same people won't thank them for it. And these habits die hard. The media and politicians have how forgotten how to do anything but give bland platitudes. It's left up to HPC and other independent sources of information to educate and inform.

Does that sound reasonable?

Edited by Starcrossed

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they don't want to say anything because they were all complicit.

A whole generation of politicians, bankers and economists have utterly failed us.

plus, I think there's an element of hubris and just assuming that things will always be stable as they've been stable for a very long time.

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It's because of the miracle of democracy.

You can say whatever you like, then those in power ignore you and do what they alwasy wanted to anyway. After a decade or two of this, people stop bothering even saying anything. They turn off, knowing that nothing they say will make a damn bit of difference, and watch X factor instead. Socialism hasn't worked, thatcherism hasn't worked, collectivism is a massive proven failure and what else is there to suggest?

That and the fact that you can't ask about banking in the house of comons and that anyone who ******s with the bankers empire is doomed from the second they open their mouth.

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It struck me this evening that in the face of the economic crisis there is no real public debate.

In the 70's and 80's every twist of economic fortunes was argued about in the media, in Parliament and in homes. Was there too much state intervention? Too little? How important was a balance of payments deficit? Inflation versus employment, that kind of thing.

Yet today, while the economy of the western world crumbles there is no debate out there.

Not being a conspiracy theorist I don't want to believe this is because our 'masters' are engineering some kind of plot.

If not that, what could the reason be?

My personal starting point is that there is a general distrust of intelligence in both politics and the media. Big ideas and discussions aren't allowed. The fiendish complexity of CDOs etc don't help get the crunch to 'ordinary people', for instance.

However, this theory only goes so far - the basic principles of the credit boom are not about big ideas, rather in profound but simple truths. That people spent more than they earned. It's a moral issue as much as it is about ideas. This moral aspect has come from a general inability of people to take responsibility for their own decisions.

So we have a politics and a media that have been reluctant to burst the collective delusions of 'the people' for fear that these very same people won't thank them for it. And these habits die hard. The media and politicians have how forgotten how to do anything but give bland platitudes. It's left up to HPC and other independent sources of information to educate and inform.

Does that sound reasonable?

Economic theories that are understood by the public can be counted on the hand of a leprosy victim.

In the seventies the media thought that Joe Public and the unions would be reasonable if everything was explained slowly and carefully. This led to 2 outcomes:

1) The winter of discontent

2) Thatcherism

Now no-one understands the theory. Even the best minds are re-learning. Frankly it's a guessing game as to what will happen.

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We're not there yet. Fuel and food prices are up but most people are not feeling any real pain. When life become more painful for the majority, then there will be debate....and real fear. Just a question of time.

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We're economically sound.

We're all sitting on huge home equity.

Low interest rates.

Low unemployment.

Low repossession rate.

Low inflation.

Low bankruptcy rate.

Stockmarket, voltalite but is OK.

Ok the yanks are going through a minor slowing down of the economy.... BUT

What is there to talk about?

:o

Edited by notanewmember

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I think this applies to other topics as well Starcrossed. My own theory is that people used to think that keeping up to date with the news, understanding/researching the issues and voting(!) were what responsible people did. It was a duty that you had as a participant in society. Now we have single issue/identity politics that is more a consumerist way of approach the issues of the day. And the mentality that choosing between lesser evils at the ballot box isn't an adult responsibility, either you have a perfect party with a perfect set of policies or you stamp your foot like a child and refuse to vote. Ultimately it comes down to an "I'm alright Jack" mentality, whats in it for me, if there isn't a direct gain (and I'm not a City trader so I have no direct way of making money out of the economic debate, although it can inform other choices) why bother? In support of this I've noticed that advice to teenagers about job interviews no longer includes the useful advice that it might be worth reading a decent paper on the day of the interview in case they want to talk current affairs as an icebreaker. Just isn't expected now. Hell, I'd be surprised if it features in interviews for journalism!

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I think it's a lot simpler really, the basic greed of the people.

this time around so many people have a vested interest in keeping the prices high that they are willing to let the powers that be say any ridiculous thing the want to, as long as they drop the interest rate, or give aid to FTB's, cut the CGT etc.

everyone knows somewhere deep down that the actions of the past few years especially have been pretty silly, I think everyone is just holding their breath and hoping that they get a chance to get out with their skin.

you also have the fact that it is still very early in the game.

So far the real effects of the financial problems haven't hit home with the people.

once they do and unemployment starts soaring, repo's go through the roof, and people start actually being hungry, you are likely to see a lot more discussion about which course to take to fix it.

basically the "people still have their mouths too full of pizza to actually argue" reson lol.

give them a little bit to digest.

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We're economically sound.

We're all sitting on huge home equity.

Low interest rates.

Low unemployment.

Low repossession rate.

Low inflation.

Low bankruptcy rate.

Stockmarket, voltalite but is OK.

Ok the yanks are going through a minor slowing down of the economy.... BUT

What is there to talk about?

:o

I love these low interest rates. If you bought a house 10 years ago, not only did you buy a house at a reasonable price, soon interest rates tumbled, and paying off the mortgage must have become a breeze (if you were smart, not an idiot that sees MEW as a good idea). Not only that, your place is 'worth' a goddamn fortune.

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There are no economic debates because most people wouldn't care or understand. The media is dominated by news stories that are, for the most part, piffle - mostly irrelevant but mildly interesting for the unthinking and unquestioning minds of the majority. They don't question the state of the economy as long as they're ok. They don't question the morality of economic policies as long as they're ok. It's someone else's house making up the repossession figures.

All that matters to the average Joe is that he can dredge up enough credit for a 48" plasma and the 4x4 in his drive. Live for today, pay for it tomorrow... or never. Joe doesn't question anything until the bailiff comes knocking on his door after all seven of his credit cards have defaulted and he can't remortgage the new-build flat he cleverly invested in at the house price peak. Joe only starts asking questions when he hasn't got a bucket left to p*ss in, but by then it's too late. Times and society have changed. How quickly we forget the lessons of the past.

Edited by RajD

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People have had a really easy time in the past decade financially (or rather, think they have).

No money? No problem! Here, borrow some! Borrow some more! Go on, because you're worth it.

Sweet, my property has earnt me blahdeblah I can underwite the debt with that.

Hell, even that hasn't been necessary. Have some more free debt onsecured on however many debt cards you want!

People are just not used to having to think about it any more, simple as that. They just borrow more.

And it's figures. They make your head hurt, they're confusing (and the brighter people will realise that they are fixed and fiddled in any case).

I'm vaguely numerate (on a good day, according to my education and quals, at least), but they make my head hurt too ffs!

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Guest Charlie The Tramp

The thing which really amuses me today is when that brand new car appears on the driveway the neighbour`s comments are,

Fred is doing well these days I wish I could afford it, lucky man ;)

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Maybe because they owe so much they dont want to talk about it, everytime i try to start a debate they become like kids in a class room falling alseep. they perfer to talk about becks etc.. i just can't stand it.

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People are just not used to having to think about it any more, simple as that. They just borrow more take out a LIAR LOAN.......

And it's figures. They make your head hurt, they're confusing (and the brighter people will realise that they are fixed and fiddled in any case).

I'm vaguely numerate (on a good day, according to my education and quals, at least), but they make my head hurt too ffs!

Edited by eric pebble

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The thing which really amuses me today is when that brand new car appears on the driveway the neighbour`s comments are,

Fred is doing well these days I wish I could afford it, lucky man ;)

I really used to wonder where all that money actually came from! Seriously!!!

Great link you posted earlier :

http://www.creditaction.org.uk/mar.html

repeated here since I like it so much ;)

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It struck me this evening that in the face of the economic crisis there is no real public debate.

In the 70's and 80's every twist of economic fortunes was argued about in the media, in Parliament and in homes.

The debate is here. It is on MT, GEI, the other place - and many, many other places. The tragedy is that it is heard only by those who look for it.

In the 70's people would have been forced to consider, or at least endure, the opinions of others - at work, at family gatherings, and in the pub. We have been conditioned now that the proffering of contrary opinion in public is unacceptable.

To be fair, that was probably the case in the 1950's too.

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Guest Charlie The Tramp
I really used to wonder where all that money actually came from! Seriously!!!

Well look at it this way as at December 1997 after 600 years of the Banking System Personal Debt stood at around £500 Billion.

Eleven years later Personal Debt now stands at £1.412 trillion, thats where all the money came from. ;)

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Well look at it this way as at December 1997 after 600 years of the Banking System Personal Debt stood at around £500 Billion.

Eleven years later Personal Debt now stands at £1.412 trillion, thats where all the money came from. ;)

thats ending btw

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Well look at it this way as at December 1997 after 600 years of the Banking System Personal Debt stood at around £500 Billion.

Eleven years later Personal Debt now stands at £1.412 trillion, thats where all the money came from. ;)

Can anyone produce one of those lovely graphs for total personal debt by year? I bet it's exponential.

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Guest Charlie The Tramp
Can anyone produce one of those lovely graphs for total personal debt by year? I bet it's exponential.

mar08_personal.jpg

Credit Action

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thats ending btw

I'm just glad that none of it is mine! Back in the days when I wondered where it all came from, I was a bit pissed off by it all, to be honest.

But looking at it now, I'm starting to feel a little less poor than I did back then.

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  • 292 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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