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TryingToSell

How Can This Be?

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Hi all,

I first posted on here a few months back now with a dilema about accepting a low offer on a property. Since then I've had something of a roller coaster experience so I thought I'd share it.

Started trying to sell a house for £240k in April last year. 2000 built 4 bed house in the East Midlands. That price was perhaps 2 to 5k above what others were asking for similar properties in the same area, but I was prepared to lower it if need be and my house had a nice aspect and was clean and tidy, with a few extras like a conservatory. Over the summer I had very little interest so I started to do three things. 1) Lower the price, by 5k at a time, until viewers and then offers arrived. 2) Sanatised the house, decorated (in magnolia), removed old furniture, put up neutral curtains, etc etc. It was show house central by the time I sold it, having spent about 2k and many many hours of my time. 3) I got a second agent on board. By the autumn I was asking for £200k and had one offer of £190k (the dilema offer). I accepted that, but then the buyer (BTL!) pulled out. Around then the media was starting to report the Northern Rock trouble so I was more desperate to sell than ever. By the end of Nov I'd had two offers - 195k from someone with an incomplete chain (and they still have the same incomplete chain right now) and another at 197k, a complete chain, but a FTB not wanting to actually complete until early Feb. Options weren't looking good.

I then contacted several "we buy your house right now" companies. (you know the ones!). Most offered me prices in the 170's, but one offered 185k. Add to that free legal fees and no agent fees and it pretty much matched the earlier accepted offer, so I grabbed it. Only later did I discover I was actually selling it for £240k with a 55k "discount". The RICS approved valuer arrived and confirmed that 240k was realistic and compared well with other prices in the area, and that was that - property sold at the end of Nov.

The current state is that the house is back on the market again, at £235k, with "no chain" written all over the adverts (but I never had a chain in the first place!). It's now empty, musty, and has weeds in the garden. The other properties I was comparing to have taken between 5k and 10k from their prices but are all still there - they weren't (aren't) as desperate to sell as I was.

But the thing I still haven't grasped is this. Why did the RICS valuer support the £240 valuation when I'd been trying to sell it at £200k up until the week before and hadn't sold it? And how does the company that bought it hope to make anything on it? And what price will be recorded at the land registry for the sale? I don't think I'v been duped (have I?) but I can see that the so called property stats on which everyone relies so much are a complete fabrication in my case. To value a property you have to look at sold prices or asking prices. My sold price isn't what it actually sold for, and asking prices are a long long way away from selling prices.

Comments invited!

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Hi all,

I first posted on here a few months back now with a dilema about accepting a low offer on a property. Since then I've had something of a roller coaster experience so I thought I'd share it.

Started trying to sell a house for £240k in April last year. 2000 built 4 bed house in the East Midlands. That price was perhaps 2 to 5k above what others were asking for similar properties in the same area, but I was prepared to lower it if need be and my house had a nice aspect and was clean and tidy, with a few extras like a conservatory. Over the summer I had very little interest so I started to do three things. 1) Lower the price, by 5k at a time, until viewers and then offers arrived. 2) Sanatised the house, decorated (in magnolia), removed old furniture, put up neutral curtains, etc etc. It was show house central by the time I sold it, having spent about 2k and many many hours of my time. 3) I got a second agent on board. By the autumn I was asking for £200k and had one offer of £190k (the dilema offer). I accepted that, but then the buyer (BTL!) pulled out. Around then the media was starting to report the Northern Rock trouble so I was more desperate to sell than ever. By the end of Nov I'd had two offers - 195k from someone with an incomplete chain (and they still have the same incomplete chain right now) and another at 197k, a complete chain, but a FTB not wanting to actually complete until early Feb. Options weren't looking good.

I then contacted several "we buy your house right now" companies. (you know the ones!). Most offered me prices in the 170's, but one offered 185k. Add to that free legal fees and no agent fees and it pretty much matched the earlier accepted offer, so I grabbed it. Only later did I discover I was actually selling it for £240k with a 55k "discount". The RICS approved valuer arrived and confirmed that 240k was realistic and compared well with other prices in the area, and that was that - property sold at the end of Nov.

The current state is that the house is back on the market again, at £235k, with "no chain" written all over the adverts (but I never had a chain in the first place!). It's now empty, musty, and has weeds in the garden. The other properties I was comparing to have taken between 5k and 10k from their prices but are all still there - they weren't (aren't) as desperate to sell as I was.

But the thing I still haven't grasped is this. Why did the RICS valuer support the £240 valuation when I'd been trying to sell it at £200k up until the week before and hadn't sold it? And how does the company that bought it hope to make anything on it? And what price will be recorded at the land registry for the sale? I don't think I'v been duped (have I?) but I can see that the so called property stats on which everyone relies so much are a complete fabrication in my case. To value a property you have to look at sold prices or asking prices. My sold price isn't what it actually sold for, and asking prices are a long long way away from selling prices.

Comments invited!

Was the RICS guy appointed by the company buying by any chance ?

You're solicitor is duty bound to report the selling price as £185K, if not, report them to the fraud office immediately.

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I'm confused.

You sold the house for how much exactly? What was the "discount" figure?

I sold it for £185k - that was the price paid. The paperwork says I sold it at £240k but with a £55k "discount". The paperwork was drawn up by the company's legal dept and the advice I received from my solicitor was that it matters none to me how they want to dress it up. But that's key to their buying strategy. They borrowed funds against a £240k house, and I guess they borrowed a high percentage of that figure, but they only actually paid £185k to me.

Isn't this exactly the same as the well reported BTL apartment buyers who get discounts on what they actually borrow against?

Edited by TryingToSell

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Was the RICS guy appointed by the company buying by any chance ?

Appointed by the buyer's mortgage company I guess.

You're solicitor is duty bound to report the selling price as £185K, if not, report them to the fraud office immediately.

Their solicitor, not mine - I think. I queried the lagalities of it all many times with my solicitor and was assured it was up to the buyer and there's no come-back on me.

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Appointed by the buyer's mortgage company I guess.

Their solicitor, not mine - I think. I queried the lagalities of it all many times with my solicitor and was assured it was up to the buyer and there's no come-back on me.

This is quite blatantly fraud. Report them to the police and trading standards. They are trying to have the land registry figure at 240K so some poor sod pays fool price.

If you dont want to report them then put the companies name on this website and someone will !!!!!

This should be a main forum thread in my opinion. I will ask Mods to move it there.

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This is quite blatantly fraud. Report them to the police and trading standards. They are trying to have the land registry figure at 240K so some poor sod pays fool price.

If you dont want to report them then put the companies name on this website and someone will !!!!!

This should be a main forum thread in my opinion. I will ask Mods to move it there.

We could probably find the place with the information at hand;

4 bed house in the East Midlands

Sold Nov. 2007 for £240k

On sale now £235k, probably listed on Rightmove with "no chain"

Ok, HPC sleuths the race is on!

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Its obvious why the higer price with discount was quoted and Ill eat my hat if that isnt the price that hits the LR. So what will happen now is somebody will check previous price paid see £240k put in £220k offer accepted buyer duped.

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I sold it for £185k - that was the price paid. The paperwork says I sold it at £240k but with a £55k "discount". The paperwork was drawn up by the company's legal dept and the advice I received from my solicitor was that it matters none to me how they want to dress it up. But that's key to their buying strategy. They borrowed funds against a £240k house, and I guess they borrowed a high percentage of that figure, but they only actually paid £185k to me.

Isn't this exactly the same as the well reported BTL apartment buyers who get discounts on what they actually borrow against?

I would wait until the price appears on the land registry. If it appears at 240k then report it. if it appears at £185k then there should not be much of a problem - buyer should check the LR?

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I would wait until the price appears on the land registry. If it appears at 240k then report it. if it appears at £185k then there should not be much of a problem - buyer should check the LR?

If I were a betting man....

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Anyone found it yet?

The November figures are on the Land Registry now and helpfully Rightmove can sort by price......

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It seems to me that there's a good likelihood that they're not all that interested in selling the house, having pocketed the difference between the £185k they paid you and the £200k+ they managed to borrow on the back of the surveyor's £240k valuation? They're probably planning on doing a runner, if they haven't already.

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I think the Land Registry is a bit of a red herring here. If there are other comparable properties which are cheaper and better presented than it's difficult to see how an inflated land registry figure will convince someone to pay over the odds for it. More likely that the purchaser is bumping up the value for mortgage purposes, either to avoid having to put down a deposit or because they're going to do a midnight flit with the difference.

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To the person who sold the house ...

Do a search at the Land Registry and find out if the buyer obtained a mortgage on the property to buy it from you. If they did and the mortgage is for more than they paid you, contact the lender and ask them if they knew they had given a more than 100% mortgage on the property.

If the buyer's solicitor reported to the lender that the buyer was paying 240k for the property knowing they were actually paying 185k, thereby duping the lender, the buyer and buyer's solicitor (in particular) are in deep shite. The buyer's solicitor would be reported to the Law Society and he would be booted out and lose his livelihood.

Otherwise it's a good scam. Give you 185k and tell the Land Registry they paid 240k. When they sell it to some mug for 210k they'll have made 25k of easy (very easy) money and the mug who buys it will think he has a bargain. Smart barstewards but what they are doing is fraud and it is rigging the housing market. REPORT them, they have mugged you over nicely.

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It seems to me that there's a good likelihood that they're not all that interested in selling the house, having pocketed the difference between the £185k they paid you and the £200k+ they managed to borrow on the back of the surveyor's £240k valuation? They're probably planning on doing a runner, if they haven't already.

Nah, the terms of the BTL loan they bought it under will state that the max LTV will be 85 ish percent. Which typically means the 'investor' should pay a 15% deposit. However, if the surveyor 'values' is 240, and they borrow 185, they are only borrowing 77%. The bank assuemes that they have put in 15%, but the reality is that the house has been bought with the 'investor' putting no money down.

No subprime in the UK and all that.........

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In reply to several of the above posts ...

It's not on the land regsitry yet - I guess the solicitors didn't send it all through until Christmas or possibly even this year. I will keep checking for it.

I don't think I can get details of what the mortgage percentage is, can I? Nor can I identify the mortgage company.

It's now up for sale at about the same as other houses which are similar. It's hard to call as no two houses are identical. Variation would be 5 to 10k either way I reckon, and that's the difference here (240k last April to 235k now) and on the ones I'm comparing it to (about 235k then, and about 230k now)

And sorry guys, but I'm not identifying the property - just in case there's some come back :ph34r: . If you find it then that's your guess, but please do me a favour and don't identify it on here. I wanted to post the story as I think it says a lot about what's happening out there, but please don't land me in the crap.

Three unanswered questions -

1) What was the valuer doing approving the 240k? Are they negligant?

2) The company knew I'd been trying to sell it at 200k without success. They've either pocketed the difference and legged it (limited company, so who carries the can?), or they're denying the crash and hoping to turn it this spring. What's their business plan?

3) Isn't this exactly what BTL'ers have been doing with new build aflats all over the land?

Edited by TryingToSell

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In reply to several of the above posts ...

It's not on the land regsitry yet - I guess the solicitors didn't send it all through until Christmas or possibly even this year. I will keep checking for it.

I don't think I can get details of what the mortgage percentage is, can I? Nor can I identify the mortgage company.

It's now up for sale at about the same as other houses which are similar. It's hard to call as no two houses are identical. Variation would be 5 to 10k either way I reckon, and that's the difference here (240k last April to 235k now) and on the ones I'm comparing it to (about 235k then, and about 230k now)

And sorry guys, but I'm not identifying the property - just in case there's some come back :ph34r: . If you find it then that's your guess, but please do me a favour and don't identify it on here. I wanted to post the story as I think it says a lot about what's happening out there, but please don't land me in the crap.

Three unanswered questions -

1) What was the valuer doing approving the 240k? Are they negligant?

2) The company knew I'd been trying to sell it at 200k without success. They've either pocketed the difference and legged it (limited company, so who carries the can?), or they're denying the crash and hoping to turn it this spring. What's their business plan?

3) Isn't this exactly what BTL'ers have been doing with new build aflats all over the land?

How will you land in the crap?

What a cop out. At one point there were over 80 people reading this thread, all hoping to see some justice done on the fraudsters who've wrecked the economy. You could do something about this, but instead you're colluding with them.

Stop wasting our time.

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Im with the OP, he obviously is worried about any comeback. i would be too. Personally, id wait 6 months, move and then land them in it. Then there'd be no comeback. What they are doing is illegal and the OP should never have agreed to it but that's life. Im surprised they think they can sell it at a profit when you had such a problem finding a buyer so im guessing it's dodgy somehow...and dodgy people dont like being f**ked over...keep your knee caps mate and shop them later in the day when they wont know who did it. But do us all a favour and DO shop them.

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How will you land in the crap?

What a cop out. At one point there were over 80 people reading this thread, all hoping to see some justice done on the fraudsters who've wrecked the economy. You could do something about this, but instead you're colluding with them.

Stop wasting our time.

Ditto, spent half an hour searching rightmove before realising it was pointless. This could have been a clasic.

Damo

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Ditto, spent half an hour searching rightmove before realising it was pointless. This could have been a clasic.

Damo

I'm starting to think it was a wind up.

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Did you have your own solicitor involved in the selling process?

If so, then this would be the fault of your solicitor for not highlighting this issue and therefore seems highly unlikely you will get any come back.

The truth will always come out, and you should do the right thing instead of waiting to see if it will come back to bite you in the ****.

If ever there was an investigation into the said company which with the way things are going seems highly likely, then you need to make sure that you can prove that you at least complained to the company or had the matter investigated.

Otherwise they may suspect you of being in with the scam due to you being a desperate seller and would of done anything to get rid of the property.

Plan for the worst hope for the best i say, protect yourself as cgano says!!

Loz

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In any event it is simple to find the mortgagee. A £3 office copy of the register [available online] will show the mortgagee in the charges register. It is very unlikely that the sale would not yet be registered as i would imagine the mortgagees would be chasing for confirmation of the registration of the charge.

i may have to get my troll rifle out of the cupboard.

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I'm starting to think it was a wind up.

Which part of "It's not on the land registry yet, I've checked" don't you understand? I will keep checking the Land registry, and if 240k is reported when it is listed then I'll contact them and point out the error. Until it is reported then there's no fraud or illegalities to it - it's just anecdotal and speculation. But please be assured, last summer was extremely stressful for me going through all this, and I certainly am not winding you up!

Nobody has answered the BTL inflated prices on flats comparison. Isn't this exactly what loads of house builders and investment buyers have been doing for years? As recently reported in the media? The "sold price" at the LR and the price which the mortgage company lend against doesn't equate to the actual amount of money which changes hands, and the difference is referred to as a "discount".

I don't quite see what's in it for the purchaser - they need the market to start rising again, or they'l default on the mortgage and walk away with the difference. But the parts of the process where this all goes horribly wrong are 1) The valuer didn't do any homework - they were asked to value a house and surprise surprise they said it's worth exactly what they were told it was being sold for. What kind of valuation is that? It's a nonsense. The valuation is supposed to protect the mortgage company but the valuers aren't doing that. 2) the LR recorded price, when it is recorded, should be the actual price paid - but that isn't the case in the BTL flats which have hit the headlines. So my point is that the whole process of valuing a house is flawed and therefore this crash is going to be a big one. In my case it was 23% but I was helped by other sellers refusing to lower their prices along with me. Once everyone starts lowering prices it only gets worse.

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REPORT them, they have mugged you over nicely.

In what sense? OP was delighted to shift his house in a falling market.

What they are doing is illegal and the OP should never have agreed to it but that's life.

What did OP do wrong? All he did was to sell his house at a price he thought was fair. He had no contract with the surveyor. He didn't even have any entitlement to see the surveyor's report.

Im surprised they think they can sell it at a profit when you had such a problem finding a buyer

I'd say they are in it so deeply that the rest of it is pretty irrelevant.

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  • 295 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



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