Public Sector Largesse Threatening Economic Destruction?

[jonjo]

The miners were able to stay off work for so long because most of them lived in council housing. Thatcher realised this and promply flogged the lot off knowing that workers are not able to strike for any extended period of time if they had to pay a mortgage.

So Thatcher privatised council housing so workers couldn't strike? That sounds like an unfounded allegation. A bit like if I said Thatcher sold council houses so the government could save on rent collecting officers or Thatcher sold the council houses so she could fund tax cuts or Thatcher sold the council houses to cut the spending on roofing and repair or Thatcher flogged the council houses cos she had a visit from Jesus.

F*!k me this making sh!t up is a piece of p!ss

[Pindar]

Baroness Margaret Thatcher, had the right idea "We are handing back the family silver by to the family by privatising".

She was right about one thing.

If you mean privatisation - didn't she just carve up what already belonged to the tax payer and then make people buy it again? I believe they call this a scam.

[Fudge]

So Thatcher privatised council housing so workers couldn't strike? That sounds like an unfounded allegation. A bit like if I said Thatcher sold council houses so the government could save on rent collecting officers or Thatcher sold the council houses so she could fund tax cuts or Thatcher sold the council houses to cut the spending on roofing and repair or Thatcher flogged the council houses cos she had a visit from Jesus.

F*!k me this making sh!t up is a piece of p!ss

I wouldnt say it was one of the main reasons Thatcher sold off council housing but it was a positive side effect for her.

And also if I remember rightly she was behind the encouraging people to take out private pensions which has resulted

in the mess in private pensions we have today. I remember working in a factory at the time and a couple of spiv salesmen

came in and the management calling a meeting of all workers to allow these salesmen to give us their sales pitch of how better

off we would be coming out of the state pension and going into a private pension. I knew at the time it was a load of ********.

[Injin]

Yes I work in the public sector and have a LGPS pension.

The choice for those who don't is to do something about the continual attack on your pay and conditions.

Join a union, organise, do something to defend your livelyhoods.

Or steal it, like you do.

[DotBomb]

Unions represent special interst groups who bully by using thier collective position. I think the private sector should go on strike for a day and withold all tax revenues. The country would literally halt. If the public sector did that I reckon 75% of the population wouldnt notice a whole lot.

Your day will come public sector. You will have to justify yourselves in the global workforce as we have done. Good Luck.

[Fudge]

Or steal it, like you do.

Did someone steal your teddy as a kid and you never got over it or something?

[Injin]

Did someone steal your teddy as a kid and you never got over it or something?

No, parasites like yourself steal from me every single day.

I call it theft because it's theft. I call public secor workers thieves because they are thieves. It's just an accurate description.

Pretty simple really. If you don't like it, change.

[Fudge]

Unions represent special interst groups who bully by using thier collective position. I think the private sector should go on strike for a day and withold all tax revenues. The country would literally halt. If the public sector did that I reckon 75% of the population wouldnt notice a whole lot.

Your day will come public sector. You will have to justify yourselves in the global workforce as we have done. Good Luck.

All unions are, are organised workers whether they are in the private or public sector.

Justify ourselves in a global workforce, you mean when we are earning a dollar a day along side you, you will be happy.

[Injin]

All unions are, are organised workers whether they are in the private or public sector.

Justify ourselves in a global workforce, you mean when we are earning a dollar a day along side you, you will be happy.

Just as long as you aren't stealing from me, you do what you want.

[huw]

All unions are, are organised workers whether they are in the private or public sector.

Justify ourselves in a global workforce, you mean when we are earning a dollar a day along side you, you will be happy.

The thing is, if we're earning a dollar a day, and paying 50c in tax each day, that's what's available to pay you. And if we organise and demand more, the work goes to somewhere where they will accept a dollar a day. (Edit: and if you've been promised a $10 a day index-linked pension, then the only way to pay that is to print the money, causing inflation, causing your index-linking to kick in, causing more money to be printed ... and before you know it you've got a hyperinflationary spiral).

It's a conundrum.

Edited February 29, 2008 by huw

[Fudge]

No, parasites like yourself steal from me every single day.

I call it theft because it's theft. I call public secor workers thieves because they are thieves. It's just an accurate description.

Pretty simple really. If you don't like it, change.

Not everyone has the same faith in Capitalism as you. I for instance think it is exploitative and oppressive.

So I simply do not accept the idea that a public sector worker is thieving anything from anyone.

A teacher for example is worth 10 estate agents simply by the use that person is to society.

[Injin]

Not everyone has the same faith in Capitalism as you. I for instance think it is exploitative and oppressive.

So I simply do not accept the idea that a public sector worker is thieving anything from anyone.

A teacher for example is worth 10 estate agents simply by the use that person is to society.

Capitalism is simply free trade. Would you like to buy this item? No?..oh ok then. Everyone in a capitalist system has the power of refusal of any good or service without being attacked.

Simple.

The public sector, on the other hand, sends armed men to your house if you don't pay for what it provides, whether you want what it provides or not. This is theft.

All public sector employees are paid for by theft and are thieves.

Simple.

[Fudge]

The thing is, if we're earning a dollar a day, and paying 50c in tax each day, that's what's available to pay you. And if we organise and demand more, the work goes to somewhere where they will accept a dollar a day.

It's a conundrum.

The work or capital is going to where the cheap labour is anyway. Thats Capitalism, the point is not to accept because

it is a game you cannot win, because capital dictates the rules.

If private sector workers were earning a good wage and had a decent pension then they would not mind a small %

going into health, education etc. But due to globalisation they are having their pay and conditions driven down and

can no longer afford the taxes to put into health, education, pensions etc

[Guest mattsta1964]

As loathe as I am to quote the Daily Mail...

A fifth of your council tax is paying for 'gold-plated' pensions at the town hall

By BECKY BARROW

Last updated at 10:03am on 29th February 2008

Does anyone know how much of a ticking time bomb this is? Not just in local government, but central government, quangos, etc etc.

I wonder how much of the tax Gordo placed on private pensions when he came to power is now used in subsidising these pensions.

To my great surprise, in last week's Sunday Times magazine, it showed that public sector workers now earned £50 per week more than those in the private sector. I find it a bit sickening to know that the people whose wages my taxes (and everyone else in the private sector) are paying earns more on average and has a generous pension. After all, it is the private sector that pays for everything in the end and the public sector is hardly a model of efficiency and thrift.

What type of contraction in the size of the state could stave off what seems to be a looming disaster in a decade or so?

It's totally unaffordable

Providing state employees with inflation proof pensions under our existing monetary and economic model is NOT possible

The politicians can make all the promises thay like. It doesn't alter the fact that the cost of meeting state pensions will leave every private sector employee in abject poverty.

[medusa]

I think I need to do some digging into how these £1 in £5 stats are actually compiled. I'm never sure whether these quoted figures are "handed straight over to pension fund" or paid as gross wages to public sector staff but then siphoned off into voluntary pensions. My Mum works for social services in management and I know for a fact she pays £1000 per month towards her pension - so whether this is included as "what the taxpayer" pays, as they ultimately pay her gross wages, or whether this is seen as purely her own contribution with local taxes raising £1/5 more to fund her gold-plated £12k pa pension I'd like to know.

[huw]

The work or capital is going to where the cheap labour is anyway. Thats Capitalism, the point is not to accept because

it is a game you cannot win, because capital dictates the rules.

If private sector workers were earning a good wage and had a decent pension then they would not mind a small %

going into health, education etc. But due to globalisation they are having their pay and conditions driven down and

can no longer afford the taxes to put into health, education, pensions etc

Right. So should we try to set up a siege economy, like South Africa did? Britain is supposedly a trading nation, you know.

A more serious moral point is, who are we to keep all the goodies and comforts for ourselves just because we happen to have been born in the right country, while others starve?

[Fudge]

Right. So should we try to set up a siege economy, like South Africa did? Britain is supposedly a trading nation, you know.

A more serious moral point is, who are we to keep all the goodies and comforts for ourselves just because we happen to have been born in the right country, while others starve?

I would argue that capitalism caused the poverty you see in the third world through imperialism and keeps

it impoverished through debt.

[Moo]

Given where tax revenues are likely to be headed over the next few years, public sector employment is likely to be an exceptionally dicey prospect indeed. Whilst I resent paying for a lot of the self-evident waste, I'm also extremely glad to be on the private side of the fence right now.

[Fudge]

Capitalism is simply free trade. Would you like to buy this item? No?..oh ok then. Everyone in a capitalist system has the power of refusal of any good or service without being attacked.

Simple.

The public sector, on the other hand, sends armed men to your house if you don't pay for what it provides, whether you want what it provides or not. This is theft.

All public sector employees are paid for by theft and are thieves.

Simple.

I oppose capitalism on the grounds that it entails social domination, involuntary relations and coercive hierarchy.

[Injin]

Right. So should we try to set up a siege economy, like South Africa did? Britain is supposedly a trading nation, you know.

A more serious moral point is, who are we to keep all the goodies and comforts for ourselves just because we happen to have been born in the right country, while others starve?

You don't understand, Huw, public sector people don't have to provide goods and services to voluntarily trade with others, they are owed a living, and a good living at that.

They are owed good wages, comfy offices, fat pensions and jobs for life.

[Guest mattsta1964]

I oppose capitalism on the grounds that it entails social domination, involuntary relations and coercive hierarchy.

Did you copy that out of a school text book?

What the hell are you gibbering about Fudge?

[Injin]

I oppose capitalism on the grounds that it entails social domination, involuntary relations and coercive hierarchy.

Then you are under a complete misaprehension of what capitalism is.

There are no involuntary, unchosen relationships in capitalism.

There is no hierarchy, save that earned from providing goods and services better than others and that only lasts until others copy what the leader is doing.

There is no coercion. That's why it's called free trade and free markets.

[Guest happy?]

It's totally unaffordable

Providing state employees with inflation proof pensions under our existing monetary and economic model is NOT possible

The politicians can make all the promises thay like. It doesn't alter the fact that the cost of meeting state pensions will leave every private sector employee in abject poverty.

But aren't public sector workers paying exactly the same tax as private sector workers and having additional taxation in the form of their pensions contributions anyway?

As someone else pointed-out pensions are deferred benefits, if you remove the benefit what would be the impact?

[Injin]

But aren't public sector workers paying exactly the same tax as private sector workers and having additional taxation in the form of their pensions contributions anyway?

As someone else pointed-out pensions are deferred benefits, if you remove the benefit what would be the impact?

Nope.

Taxing the public sector is quite obviously just mindless, pointless busywork, as they are paid for by taxation.

Bob steals £100 from me, then gives £10 back. Bob has just stolen £90 in total not £100. He hasn't added anything.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Injin

[Fudge]

As Capitalism is the dominant economic system throughout the world you are not really adding anything

of any use by just arguing its case. Capitalism is not a natural system and it requires all sort of props to keep it going.

Legal systems, police, media propaganda etc.

In stead of reading books on Capitalism you need to challenge yourselves and read some Chomsky and when

you know where I am coming from you will be in a position to argue.

I have read my Ayn Rand and Adam Smith although I don't need to because I am living with Capitalism all around..

I am living it I don't need to read about it. You need to challenge your beliefs and read some anti-capitalist stuff

and you will know what I am talking about.