Effect Of Hips On House Prices

[lets get it right]

I went to have a look at a house the weekend before last. Old and not well insulated and, by virtue of the construction, not easy to improve. The property details included a chart taken from the Energy Report bit of the HIP and showed the house was pretty much as low as it could be on the energy front.

I'm not interested in the property anyway. But if I were, to what extent would that energy report put me off. Quite a lot I expect. Everyone is aware how expensive it is to heat and light your home - and cook - so I think having a HIP will have done that vendor no good at all. It will probably make his property very difficult to sell and might mean he has to take quite a drop to sell it.

So, good news all round.

[The Conveyancer]

I went to have a look at a house the weekend before last. Old and not well insulated and, by virtue of the construction, not easy to improve. The property details included a chart taken from the Energy Report bit of the HIP and showed the house was pretty much as low as it could be on the energy front.

I'm not interested in the property anyway. But if I were, to what extent would that energy report put me off. Quite a lot I expect. Everyone is aware how expensive it is to heat and light your home - and cook - so I think having a HIP will have done that vendor no good at all. It will probably make his property very difficult to sell and might mean he has to take quite a drop to sell it.

So, good news all round.

I have never had a client even mention the Energy Report in the HIP. Most dont even bother to read the thing. I dont think it will make much sifference to the price. People buy old houses for the room sizes, character and garden sizes. Also because the walls arent paper thin. Most people, if they even read the Energy Report, will think it is worth it not being efficient to gain the benefits of an old house.

New houses are efficient yes but packed in like sardines, over looked by many and built out of paper mache.

[Paddles]

Energy isn't expensive enough to make people blink in comparison with the expenditure of a house purchase.

[lets get it right]

I have never had a client even mention the Energy Report in the HIP. Most dont even bother to read the thing. I dont think it will make much sifference to the price. People buy old houses for the room sizes, character and garden sizes. Also because the walls arent paper thin. Most people, if they even read the Energy Report, will think it is worth it not being efficient to gain the benefits of an old house.

New houses are efficient yes but packed in like sardines, over looked by many and built out of paper mache.

Just as a matter of interest, I didn't read the HIP either. The agent had stuck a graph from the energy report into the property details - which struck me as odd as it certainly wasn't doing the vendor any favours.

The vendor was very focused on this when we viewed - was at pains to point out he thougth the rating was wrong, the bloke who did the HIP was only there for 10 minutes, the house 2 doors down also on the market, same construction, had a much better rating etc.

The vendor seemed to be under the impression that everyone was focused on the energy rating.

[lets get it right]

Energy isn't expensive enough to make people blink in comparison with the expenditure of a house purchase.

Certainly not true in my case. I'll buy my next house with no mortgage. The things I am very interested in are the council tax and the energy cost - as they will be the major costs of living in a particular property as I approach retirement.

So, different courses for different horses I guess. If you have an income and a 200k mortgage - who cares about the gas bill. If you have a low income and no mortgage the gas bill moves right up the agenda.

[huw]

I went to have a look at a house the weekend before last. Old and not well insulated and, by virtue of the construction, not easy to improve. The property details included a chart taken from the Energy Report bit of the HIP and showed the house was pretty much as low as it could be on the energy front.

I'm not interested in the property anyway. But if I were, to what extent would that energy report put me off. Quite a lot I expect. Everyone is aware how expensive it is to heat and light your home - and cook - so I think having a HIP will have done that vendor no good at all. It will probably make his property very difficult to sell and might mean he has to take quite a drop to sell it.

Things like loft insulation and double/triple glazing can be usually added if they're absent. Wall insulation can also be added, in the form of insulating dry-wall and/or slabs that go behind the dry wall. I admit I'm a fan of old houses though, and of the space, charm and privacy they provide. When I look around the countryside and see a particularly well-favoured spot for a house ... guess what, there's always a house there and it's been there for a long time

[Bingley Bloke]

Energy isn't expensive enough to make people blink in comparison with the expenditure of a house purchase.

It is where I live. I'd take a great deal of notice of the energy report if I was buying a house - About 10% of my take-home pay goes on gas and electric! Energy isn't cheap and it's not about to become cheap, so the less I need to consume, the better. Given the extremely high cost of energy even a small percentage price increase equates to a lot more cost, and energy companies don't do small percentage increases, only large ones, so for me the energy report would be a deal-breaker - I'd expect a sufficient reduction in price as to facilitate the funds for extensive work to be done to improve the energy-efficiency of the property immediately after I'd bought it if the report wasn't top-notch. It's ironic that the energy report could make efficient homes more desirable than inefficient ones, thus keeping the prices of homes that are cheap to run out of the reach of the low-income folks who most need a home that's cheap to run.

[huw]

It is where I live. I'd take a great deal of notice of the energy report if I was buying a house

... which suggests that you'll be in the market for a new house rather than an old one.

[The Conveyancer]

... which suggests that you'll be in the market for a new house rather than an old one.

Exactly. But someone with a bit more spare cash would prefer a house with character even if the upkeep (repair, maintenance and heating) was a bit more than the rabbit hutches on offer with great efficiency.

Older people who are short on money tend to buy retirement flats in my area, they are cheaper, there are plenty to choose from and the bills are less.

Edited February 27, 2008 by The Conveyancer

[Guest tbatst2000]

So, different courses for different horses I guess. If you have an income and a 200k mortgage - who cares about the gas bill. If you have a low income and no mortgage the gas bill moves right up the agenda.

Indeed, quite a long way up the agenda for several million[/url] people according to this.

[Blue Peter]

Indeed, quite a long way up the agenda for several million[/url] people according to this.

But isn't this a side-effect of ever-rising prices? It might even have seemed a good idea to buy something not so good and do it up. I suspect that a new mood will arise, in which people want real value for their money, and good insulation will be part of real value,

Peter.

[huw]

Indeed, quite a long way up the agenda for several million[/url] people according to this.

Fuel poverty is a special case of Want, I would say

[Guest tbatst2000]

Fuel poverty is a special case of Want, I would say

How do you mean?

[Guest tbatst2000]

But isn't this a side-effect of ever-rising prices?

Ever rising fuel prices certainly. If someone's spending 10% of their income on fuel, you've got to think they don't have much of a mortgage for the most part. I'd assume most of 4 million or so are either old and living in houses they own outright, or living in rented, mainly social, housing.

[huw]

But isn't this a side-effect of ever-rising prices? It might even have seemed a good idea to buy something not so good and do it up. I suspect that a new mood will arise, in which people want real value for their money, and good insulation will be part of real value,

Increasing energy prices will make it more rewarding to insulate older properties.

Bear in mind that older properties have features that make them livable that won't be captured by a HIPs. The presence of chimneys for example, and the thermal mass of thick stone walls, and the practice of putting big sun-catching windows to the south with tiny windows to the north. People lived in such buildings for centuries before the advent of cheap oil and gas, so we know they are viable. The same can't be said for a fifth-floor rabbit hutch.

[huw]

How do you mean?

The article was adding Fuel Poverty as a new evil to accompany Want, Squalor, Idleness, Disease, and Ignorance. If you haven't got enough fuel, then you're in Want, no less than if you have inadequate food or clothes. So Beveridge had already covered this in his report, IMO.

[Guest tbatst2000]

People lived in such buildings for centuries before the advent of cheap oil and gas, so we know they are viable.

Yeah, but they were freezing. I lived in a 250 year old house as a kid - it had stone walls, no central heating, no draft proofing that mattered and 50 year old single glazed sash windows. In the winter, we often had ice on the inside of the windows. It was horrible and not that unusual around there at the time. Just 'cause something's old, it does not mean it's good.

[Paddles]

The point I was trying to make was that, in the case of a purchaser of a £200k property with a 25% deposit, their monthly mortgage bill will be £750 a month in interest alone.

So a hundred quid per month on energy versus eighty isn't going to be as big a deciding factor in the purchase as a south-facing garden or a decent school nearby.

I might be wrong, but I suspect only in the case where the choice is between two very similar properties.

Edited February 27, 2008 by Paddles

[Freeholder]

Most people dont give a toss about energy efficiency. I have visited hundreds of houses and flats in the last few years and most are full of energy hungry kit. The most popular form of lighting is still the inefficient tungsten incandescant bulb, people with gas cookers still waste money boiling water in electric kettles and making toast in electric toasters, people in centrally heated houses still like to step out of bed in front of a 2 kilowatt fan heater and why anyone wants a power hog like a tumbledryer when evaporation is free is beyond my understanding. I have been in houses where the occupiers didn't know that you could turn the electric immersion heater in the hot tank off and the gas boiler would still heat the water. I have seen people run their central heating flat out and regulate temperature by opening or closing windows. I have had the misfortune to have to inspect smelly sh*t holes where the curtains are never opened and the lights are on all day.

Certainly there are a few people who care about energy efficiency but the rest of them think I am telling lies when I tell them that my gas and electricity bills combined are £63 per month.

[Blue Peter]

Most people dont give a toss about energy efficiency.

They will do soon.

Take a look at: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3673

It's about North American natural gas, but it contains a comment on and graph of European natural gas. Both are going to be hit very hard in the next few years. The solution will be liquified natural gas (LNG), but there isn't enough to satisfy both markets (and Asian markets). The price will soar, since prices are set at the margin,

Peter.

[Freeholder]

They will do soon.

Take a look at: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3673

Peter.

You could be right Peter and I hope you are but I think it more likely that many of them will react by bleating bitching and whineing that their human right to watch Trisha on a 48inch plasma screen while wearing just their underpants under 500 watts of unneccesary illumination has been infringed.

[huw]

Yeah, but they were freezing. I lived in a 250 year old house as a kid - it had stone walls, no central heating, no draft proofing that mattered and 50 year old single glazed sash windows. In the winter, we often had ice on the inside of the windows. It was horrible and not that unusual around there at the time. Just 'cause something's old, it does not mean it's good.

Like I said, they can be upgraded -- the old stone farmhouse I grew up in was much colder than the old stone building I live in today (yes we had ice inside the windows too) cos my father was a tight git and wouldn't insulate or heat it properly

But it comes down to horses for courses. Old/new both have advantages and disadvantages, and as such they appeal to different kinds of people.

[Guest tbatst2000]

Like I said, they can be upgraded -- the old stone farmhouse I grew up in was much colder than the old stone building I live in today (yes we had ice inside the windows too) cos my father was a tight git and wouldn't insulate or heat it properly

But it comes down to horses for courses. Old/new both have advantages and disadvantages, and as such they appeal to different kinds of people.

True enough. It's a real shame that so few new houses of any genuine design and construction quality are being built I think, which is probably why most people probably would buy an older house given the choice (that and the extra space).

[cartimandua51]

Increasing energy prices will make it more rewarding to insulate older properties.

Bear in mind that older properties have features that make them livable that won't be captured by a HIPs. The presence of chimneys for example, and the thermal mass of thick stone walls, and the practice of putting big sun-catching windows to the south with tiny windows to the north. People lived in such buildings for centuries before the advent of cheap oil and gas, so we know they are viable. The same can't be said for a fifth-floor rabbit hutch.

Ever wondered why old stone churches with thick walls are always so cold?. Two inches of modern insulation beat two feet of stone into a cocked hat!

That aside, the cost of good insulation for a house is what? £2000? That excludes double glazing, but triple lined curtains work wonders. Just another cost to be factored in when you decide what to offer. I didn't live in a house with central heating till I was 30; it isn't actually strictly necessary to have warm halls and stairways 24/7.

I take issue with the tumble drier argument. Drying clothes indoors in winter is a sure-fire way of get damp and mould on the walls, especially if the house is draught-free. And if anyone wants to go back to the days of line-drying in a British January, well, in the words of the great Mr Dylan, It Ain't Me, Babe!

[huw]

Ever wondered why old stone churches with thick walls are always so cold?. Two inches of modern insulation beat two feet of stone into a cocked hat!

That aside, the cost of good insulation for a house is what? £2000? That excludes double glazing, but triple lined curtains work wonders. Just another cost to be factored in when you decide what to offer. I didn't live in a house with central heating till I was 30; it isn't actually strictly necessary to have warm halls and stairways 24/7.

Thermal mass is not the same as insulation. Thermal mass stores heat and slowly release it. Insulation reduces heat loss or gain. The reason why the church wall always feels cold is because it takes a heck of a lot to warm the stones up -- but once they were warm (unlikely ever to happen in a church), it would take a heck of a lot to cool them down again. Ideally you want both thermal mass and insulation in your walls, with the insulation on the outside so the thermal mass is 'inside', helping smooth out temperature fluctuations. (This is why, on a hot summer's day, an old stone building tends to be more comfortable than a modern well-insulated house).

I agree about the need for central heating, I almost never run mine.