Deisel Now 5 Quid A Gallon, Petrol Up Close On 20% In A Year

[Methinkshe]

That'll work. Putting our future transportation system into the hands of another country.

Our government has already signed away via the Lisbon Treaty (EU Constitution by another name) this nation's right to self-determination, so it wouldn't make any difference.

[homeless]

ok folks, i am now utterly convinced the inflation figures are complete rubbish.

this year

all food up average 30% in price

all energy up 30% in price

all commodities up at least 20%

not even go to add housing because that rose about 20% a year without being included.

water has just increased 5.8% in england and wales

so we have

everything important to life

food,water,shelter,energy all up an average 25%

then we have consumer goods, well these goods use all the above, there also coming from china where wages are rising and inflation running at 7%+

SO PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME

how can inflation possibly be below 3% what the heck are they using that is weighted so much in the basket and is dropping so hard?

it is not possible

this is the lie of the century

[huw]

Although the Tesco guy might have been a bit 'jobsworth' - and I get as pi55ed off at the next guy at paying a higher price than pretty much anywhere else on earth - we do need to realise that petrol/diesel is a finite resource, exploration costs are going up as the black stuff gets harder to extract and the stuff takes some serious messing with (refining) before it gets to the forecourt. Not forgetting the transporting of the stuff over vast distances. Compare it to the cost of milk and mineral water (less said the better) and it don't seem quite so daft...

No, no, you're wrong, we have a God-given right to abundant fuel and the associated lifestyle, it's just a matter of enforcing that right.

[Bardon]

No, no, you're wrong, we have a God-given right to abundant fuel and the associated lifestyle, it's just a matter of enforcing that right.

Dont worry thats what US Inc do best and the UK is a subscriber to it.

When a lone gunman started shooting outside the White House on a weekday morning , Secret Service agents rushed to secure the leaders of the free world. They found Dick Cheney in his office talking on a speakerphone, reviewing material on a computer screen, and directing aides who were gathered around his desk. President Bush? He was in the gym. Dick Cheney, ran the country. He set energy policy. He guided the nation into war with Iraq, and, working closely with Karl Rove, he oversaw the political infrastructure that allowed corporate interests and the religious right to control lawmaking.

The arrival of Dick Cheney as CEO in 1995 was, by far, the best decision Halliburton ever made. Under Cheney's tenure as CEO, Halliburton's revenue from federal government contracts nearly doubled. Government-backed loans from the Export-Import bank increased from $100 million to $1.5 billion. The company became the 18th-largest defense contractor, in terms of revenue, whereas before Cheney's arrival the company was the 73rd largest contractor.

Vice President Cheney held several secret meetings with top Enron officials, including its Chairman Kenneth Lay, earlier in 2001. These meetings were presumably part of Cheney's non-public Energy Task Force sessions. A number of Enron stockholders, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Trade Representative Robert Zoellick, became officials in the Bush administration. In addition, Thomas White, a former Vice Chairman of Enron and a multimillionaire in Enron stock, served as the Secretary of the Army.

Dan Briody, in his book The Halliburton Agenda, described Halliburton's relationship with Cheney as "the embodiment of the Iron Triangle, the nexus of the government, military, and big business that President Eisenhower warned America about in his farewell speech."

[huw]

You may wonder why places with no effective central government are not the paradises you seem to think they should be. Having to provide all your own essential services whilst also paying off the local gunmen would make 40% seem like a bargin.

And if trying to trade (as anything other than a gunman) in such a place, you also have to ask, '40% of what?'.

[huw]

Dont worry thats what US Inc do best and the UK is a subscriber to it.

Sometimes 'best' isn't good enough ... it isn't working.

Edit: but I agree with the main point of your post.

[huw]

Around 80% of the price is tax, so 20p represents $100 per barrel. Double that to $200 per barrel and the price is "only" around £1.25 per litre. When oil prices were down to $50 per barrel, petrol was still around 90p per litre.

The problem, as usual with Neo Lab, is tax.

Unlike under the Tories, when fuel duty was barely noticeable

[huw]

In years to come our young will want to know what right you had to burn up 1000's of gallons of hydrocarbons to get yourself around and in the process destroying the environment.

'You fat greedy dastard, Dad. I'm starving. Why did you eat all the pies?'

[R K]

Where's my f**king electric car? :angry:

This looks promising (although it has done for the last 10 years or so).

Combination of compressed air and petrol - would make an interesting local runaround.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7243247.stm

http://www.scientificblogging.com/david_ho...pressed_air_car

http://www.theaircar.com/acf/

More and more cars are coming to market with 60+ economy with standard engines so even a doubling of petrol prices needn't hurt that much. You just have to think ahead a little.

[fluffy666]

That's a very lovely fluffy idea, but where are we going to get all the electrical generation from ?

The nice all-Nuclear electric grid that the government backs..(Or would back had it a clue) - it's not generally a problem since most people would charge their electric car overnight when other demand is low.

[Hard-up]

This looks promising (although it has done for the last 10 years or so).

Combination of compressed air and petrol - would make an interesting local runaround.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7243247.stm

http://www.theaircar.com/acf/

It's bloody daft is what it is.

A compressed-air car requires considerably more energy (at extra cost) than a battery electric vehicle. Eg (assume that, say, nuclear electricity is used for compression):

Compressed air car:

Generate Electricity - Compress air at central compression centre [huge energy requirement to compress a gas] - Transport compressed air to 'filling station' [Energy use] - Decant gas to car [Thermodynamic energy loss] - Drive car

Compression on site would probably waste more energy than using big, (more) efficient compressors and then transporting to site - Either way, compressing a gas requires a hell of a lot more energy than you get back.

Battery Electric:

Generate Electricity - Charge car [powerline tranmission loss] - Drive car.

Aside from that, knowing the inherent dangers of decanting gasses at over 300 bar, I wouldn't want to stand anywhere near one that is being 'refilled'. They say that the thin, single-wall carbon-fibre tanks will not produce shrapnel. That's not to say that the blast overpressure won't kill you outright!

I'm not asking much, huge range isn't neccesary, lead-acid cells will do.... I still want my f**king electric car! :angry:

[lets get it right]

I agree and people think I'm mad. I can't think of any reason why we need buses, I would prefer to cycle 10 miles rather than sit on an old smelly bus. Why don't people buy mopeds or motorbikes....

Because of the way people drive cars. Just last night I passed a road accident - two motorbikes on the verge crumpled - waiting for the pick-up truck. No sign of the riders - presumably already on their way to hospital or the morgue. Car invoved was hardly damaged.

I'm a keen cyclist. Two weeks ago on my usual Saturday morning 10 miler, I was crossing a mini roundabout when a car entering the roundabout from my left, who I would have expected to stop and give way to me, blithely drove straight into the roundabout. If I had been as oblivious of her as she was of me, I would probably be dead now. She would have simply driven straight over me without seeing me. I was watching her as she did this. She was looking to the right all the time to see if a car was entering the roundabout from the right, she was not focused at all on what might be in the roundabout. And all because she didn't want to slow down and take care. The look on her face when I shouted 'OOOIIIII!!!!' at her was priceless. She was really shaken up when she finally say me shouting with my face almost up against her driver's window.

And I had my yellow bib thing on and a yellow reflective hat.

So, I'll stick to riding a bike down quiet country lanes wherever I can. I certainly wouldn't ride into my local town in the rush hour.

[R K]

It's bloody daft is what it is.

A compressed-air car requires considerably more energy (at extra cost) than a battery electric vehicle. Eg (assume that, say, nuclear electricity is used for compression):

Compressed air car:

Generate Electricity - Compress air at central compression centre [huge energy requirement to compress a gas] - Transport compressed air to 'filling station' [Energy use] - Decant gas to car [Thermodynamic energy loss] - Drive car

Compression on site would probably waste more energy than using big, (more) efficient compressors and then transporting to site - Either way, compressing a gas requires a hell of a lot more energy than you get back.

Battery Electric:

Generate Electricity - Charge car [powerline tranmission loss] - Drive car.

Aside from that, knowing the inherent dangers of decanting gasses at over 300 bar, I wouldn't want to stand anywhere near one that is being 'refilled'. They say that the thin, single-wall carbon-fibre tanks will not produce shrapnel. That's not to say that the blast overpressure won't kill you outright!

I'm not asking much, huge range isn't neccesary, lead-acid cells will do.... I still want my f**king electric car! :angry:

and the first motor cars were limited to 3 or 5? mph and had to have a bloke in front waving a red flag.

One way or another, whether it is electric, air or something else, we will soon see alternatives. I'm not going to get hung up on the short-term price of scarcity of crude. Technology will out soon enough.

[The Hooded C law]

Get a conversion kit (about £500) and you can run your diesel on untreated Veg oil tax free.

The kit pays for itself in about 6 months.

Some older diesels can run on veg oil without any conversion.

Alternatively using biodiesel can save you quite a bit.

For a petrol engine there's LPG.

[lets get it right]

However we are rapidly reaching a point where cheap energy will no longer exist.

You call £5 a gallon cheap? I don't. I can afford it. I'm lucky.

I can't understand how people earning low wages can afford to run cars. And, despite all the pontificating on here, public transport is simply not an alternative outside the cities. It's great in London, if you like the cattle treatment.

Energy is cheap. The tax added on makes it expensive.

And what about all this tosh about people driving too much. We are slaves to a system we don't control. Do people on here think people like getting up in the middle of the night to drive 50 miles to work and get home halfway through the evening with just about enough energy to fall asleep in a chair - before going into the study to answer emails?

It all comes back to land prices, land ownership, planning laws and the consequential price of property.

Reform land ownership, get more people living on (and off) the land and the need for everyone rushing around like blue-@rsed flies in cars would diminish.

11 years ago John Prescott said he was going to revolutionise public transport in this country and get half the cars off the road. He said 'judge me in 10 years'.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!

I judge you, Mr. John Prescott - former ships steward, shop steward and tosspot of the highest order - to be a complete muppet. I hope you are enjoying your retirement at our expense and can I bring myself to wish you a long and happy one? Or a short and unhappy one? Hmmm.

[Austin Allegro]

Because of the way people drive cars. Just last night I passed a road accident - two motorbikes on the verge crumpled - waiting for the pick-up truck. No sign of the riders - presumably already on their way to hospital or the morgue. Car invoved was hardly damaged.

I'm a keen cyclist. Two weeks ago on my usual Saturday morning 10 miler, I was crossing a mini roundabout when a car entering the roundabout from my left, who I would have expected to stop and give way to me, blithely drove straight into the roundabout. If I had been as oblivious of her as she was of me, I would probably be dead now. She would have simply driven straight over me without seeing me. I was watching her as she did this. She was looking to the right all the time to see if a car was entering the roundabout from the right, she was not focused at all on what might be in the roundabout. And all because she didn't want to slow down and take care. The look on her face when I shouted 'OOOIIIII!!!!' at her was priceless. She was really shaken up when she finally say me shouting with my face almost up against her driver's window.

And I had my yellow bib thing on and a yellow reflective hat.

So, I'll stick to riding a bike down quiet country lanes wherever I can. I certainly wouldn't ride into my local town in the rush hour.

But this is completely anecdotal. You might as well say you'll never drive a car because you once saw a pile up on a motorway, or you'll never cross the road on foot because somebody once got run over. I've cycled in London for over twenty years and have had two minor accidents, both of which were caused by me not paying attention. If you assume nobody's seen you but if they have, they want to kill you, you should be ok.

[lets get it right]

But this is completely anecdotal. You might as well say you'll never drive a car because you once saw a pile up on a motorway, or you'll never cross the road on foot because somebody once got run over. I've cycled in London for over twenty years and have had two minor accidents, both of which were caused by me not paying attention. If you assume nobody's seen you but if they have, they want to kill you, you should be ok.

Yes, obviously anecdotal. In my life I reckon I have driven about half a million miles in a car and seen a couple of pile-ups on motorways and a number of other car accidents. I have only once or twice felt in danger.

I cycle about 20 miles a week recreationally. I would say at least once a week a car passes me and gives me a berth that means I can almost feel the wing mirrors. About 30% of car drivers have absolutely no patience when they see a cyclist and just drive past them regardless of the gap between the cyclist and oncoming traffic. The other 70% hang back and give you a bit of breathing space.

Cycling in London, I observe, is both more and less dangerous than cycling on the 'open road'. In London bikes are often travelling at about the same speed as cars but, then again, the lane changing car drivers indulge in is dangerous for cyclists.

[huw]

It's bloody daft is what it is.

A compressed-air car requires considerably more energy (at extra cost) than a battery electric vehicle.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you also need to consider the scalability, manufacturing costs and service life of batteries. A gas cylinder is relatively simple to manufacture, should last indefinitely, and does not rely on materials that are in increasingly limited supply (apart from steel I guess).

I believe the 'waste' with an air car will manifest largely as heating during compression, and cooling during decompression (anyone who's felt how hot a bicycle pump gets in use, or who's seen frost forming on an LPG cylinder as it empties, will know what I mean). Perhaps it will be possible to recover some of the energy lost to this heating and cooling?

[stuckmojo]

And what about all this tosh about people driving too much. We are slaves to a system we don't control. Do people on here think people like getting up in the middle of the night to drive 50 miles to work and get home halfway through the evening with just about enough energy to fall asleep in a chair - before going into the study to answer emails?

you are describing my typical working day.

On top of it, I watched a BBC report on "multiple passengers only lanes", whereby those unfortunate enough to HAVE to drive 50 miles to work alone, as there's no one from the same neighbourhood, going to the SAME office, at the SAME time, will get fined if they change on one of those lanes. A special camera-like device will tell if the car is occupied by one or more people.

Time to put that inflatable doll to good use.

what a shit system though.

[Hard-up]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you also need to consider the scalability, manufacturing costs and service life of batteries. A gas cylinder is relatively simple to manufacture, should last indefinitely, and does not rely on materials that are in increasingly limited supply (apart from steel I guess).

They're actually relatively expensive bespoke carbon-fibre tanks, even a steel tank is 'lifed', one would assume these carbon fibre tanks would have much shorter service lives than steel ones.

Battery electric cars have been around for over 100 years and were only ever superseded by IC cars. This begs the question; why, if IC engined car are becoming too expensive to run, don't the manufacturers give us the arguably simpler battery electric designs?

The answer is perhaps that they stand to make far less money from servicing charges due to the battery electric cars simplicity when compared with an internal combustion engined car.

[Converted Lurker]

Does anyone actually drive for pleasure any more?

I mean those days of jumping in the car for a drive somewhere are surely over - people can't afford to... with knock on effects for the day-tripper leisure economy.

We drive because we have to work or to get to those out of town shopping centres... public transport is generally poor. Especially outside London. Expensive, slow, infrequent, scarce, scary.

first three cars; RS ford escort mk1 ,then triumph stag then RS mk2. Only 18 when got the mk1, 25 years ago but I really feel for new kid drivers these days, do not believe they get the freedom on the road we had and are priced out due to rip off insurance cost organised by a very nasty uncompetitive cartel.... M6 toll road makes me sad TBH, reminds me of better motoring times.

[King Stromba]

It is annoying, bacause with the combination of relatively short average commutes, poor public transport, good high-voltage/high power domestic electric connections, a small temperature range, and very high petrol prices, the UK is probably the best country around to try and introduce electric cars. With a small amount of government support and vision, we could have easily become world leaders in the technology..

(But of course, goverment support of major future technologies is not allowed, much better to spend vast amounts on propping up banks and unpopular wars..)

Any where do you think the electricity comes from to charge this electric car? Burning fossil fuels, thats where. Only instead of burning the fuel in the engine for maximum efficiency, its burned hundreds of miles away and sent down wires to your house.

[The Hooded C law]

Any where do you think the electricity comes from to charge this electric car? Burning fossil fuels, thats where. Only instead of burning the fuel in the engine for maximum efficiency, its burned hundreds of miles away and sent down wires to your house.

Let's not forget the fuel for the conventional combustion engine also has to be transported. It'd be interesting to see an holistic energy costing for the various types of vehicle spread over the life of the vehicle. Inc manufacturing costs etc

[Hard-up]

Any where do you think the electricity comes from to charge this electric car? Burning fossil fuels, thats where.

As others pointed out, we ideally want nuclear power

Only instead of burning the fuel in the engine for maximum efficiency, its burned hundreds of miles away and sent down wires to your house.

Small internal combustion engines are horribly inefficient compared to large stationary generators.

It is more efficient to burn the fuel in a power station than in a small internal combustion engine. Fuel oil burned in power stations requires less refinement yet can be burned more efficiently, it also vastly reduces incidental energy costs in distribution (the fuel is typically piped in). The power station can always be run near peak efficiency whereas internal combustion engines are always horrendously inefficient from cold. Furthermore, the exhaust gases at a power station can be better catalyzed to produce less toxic output.

Centralised power generation using fossil fuels used to power electric vehicles may actually use considerably less energy than distributed petroleum.

[SMAC67]

You call £5 a gallon cheap? I don't. I can afford it. I'm lucky.

I can't understand how people earning low wages can afford to run cars. And, despite all the pontificating on here, public transport is simply not an alternative outside the cities. It's great in London, if you like the cattle treatment.

Energy is cheap. The tax added on makes it expensive.

And what about all this tosh about people driving too much. We are slaves to a system we don't control. Do people on here think people like getting up in the middle of the night to drive 50 miles to work and get home halfway through the evening with just about enough energy to fall asleep in a chair - before going into the study to answer emails?

It all comes back to land prices, land ownership, planning laws and the consequential price of property.

Reform land ownership, get more people living on (and off) the land and the need for everyone rushing around like blue-@rsed flies in cars would diminish.

11 years ago John Prescott said he was going to revolutionise public transport in this country and get half the cars off the road. He said 'judge me in 10 years'.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!

I judge you, Mr. John Prescott - former ships steward, shop steward and tosspot of the highest order - to be a complete muppet. I hope you are enjoying your retirement at our expense and can I bring myself to wish you a long and happy one? Or a short and unhappy one? Hmmm.

Regardless of the level of tax, fuel is still very cheap. Our problem is that we have created a vast inefficient economy that will collapse without cheap fuel. Within a very short period of time the majority of people in this country will no longer be able to afford to run a car.

When my house mate was living in Sierra Leonne it was 100USD per gallon, and that is with no tax. Welcome to the future, bleak isn't it?