Maybe It Is Not As Bad As The Bears Make Out

[JustYield]

What is it about this forum that attracts the former school bullies to flame everyone else ? What is it with the names of the 'bulls' like KOTC, dogbox etc that they need to pi*s people off with their acronyms ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, you've lost me. How was my post (quoted above) a flaming?

It surprised me that Nomadd thinks he deserves to be able to buy in his chosen suburb. Even if he could afford to buy at today's prices, should he? Renting makes much more sense. If he's so intent on buying, he will have to look at a cheaper area. He is unwilling to do this, for all the reasons he has outlined (and I have read), so he won't. That is his choice in the current market.

I know it's an emotive subject, but let's address the Bull's argument:

People can still afford to buy (if they compromise on location) but they won't buy (because the compromises are unacceptable to them).

I think if you read Nomadd's responses to my posts you might reconsider who is bullying whom.

[zzg113]

JY,

Nomadd has used an infelicitous choice of words; I suspect that what he really means is that properties in Southgate are not worth what is currently being asked for them.

People can still afford to buy (if they compromise on location) but they won't buy (because the compromises are unacceptable to them).

This is simply not true, as the Halifax survey made abundantly clear:

http://www.myfinances.co.uk/property/housi...036;7622408.htm

[King of the castle]

What is it about this forum that attracts the former school bullies to flame everyone else ? What is it with the names of the 'bulls' like KOTC, dogbox etc that they need to pi*s people off with their acronyms ?

I have 2 friends recently bought their first flat in a basic part of central Scotland. Both work hard, commute a long way to work. Last Friday they had a bill for a car repair (that they NEED to get to work) for £500. They were in tears because they simply cannot afford to pay it owing to the mortgage and student loans. So no car and one now has a 2 hour each way commute. I am older than they are and I know the score; it has not been like this for working people at any time in my working life, from the 80's onwards.

I agreed with them that the rules of living in Britain have changed. But times change and sooner or later those gloating at people struggling now will find themselves in difficulties. My father is a manager for a high street bank and he tells me that he has several customers who hold several BTL properties that are losing money because of unforseen problems. Times really do change and I really hope that those posting on here to dismiss others genuine difficulties get to experience their position sooner rather than later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My name.....don't you have a sense of humour?

I don't really think I'm the king of the castle!

As for your friends, well they chose to go to uni, they chose to take those debts on. Why should I pay for them? If I chose to go on a round the world cruise for 3 years and later on complained that I couldn't afford the debt I'd racked up, do you think I'd have a sympathetic ear from any one?

If they've chosen to go to uni, then decided to take a job that doesn't give them the requisite delayed gratification needed to make up for the 3 years they 'took off' whos fault is that?

I don't wish anything upon anyone (unlike you) but at the same time nor do I have the time or patience for people who think they should have the middle of the property ladder delievered to them on a plate! You buy as much as you can when young, and move up as soon as you're able. Crashed out and Burned (who seems far more moderate than the poster last night who claimed he NEEDED a 3 bed semi 'with a garage' whilst on a sh*t wage) was complaining yesterday that there was 'nothing' for him in Watford, a quick look on Rightmove showed a lot of one bedders at or around 100-120k. What is wrong with those? He's on £22k P.A what does he expect? He wants to live near London he has to pay the price! If he bought when young a one bedder is all he would NEED, build up some equity, pay some off the mortgage and move on! It really really is that simple, you guys go on as though buying a property is some sort of pledge with the devil!

It's always been tough, no one ever landed a 3 bed semi without sacrifices and commitment....... But there again being the son/daughter of a bank manager perhaps you haven't had the reality check you needed when you were young?

KOTC.

[JustYield]

JY,

  Nomadd has used an infelicitous choice of words; I suspect that what he really means is that properties in Southgate are not worth what is currently being asked for them.

This is simply not true, as the Halifax survey made abundantly clear:

http://www.myfinances.co.uk/property/housi...036;7622408.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed - it's quite a different thing to be arguing (social injustice vs. barmy market).

I am aware of the Halifax survey! What is KOTC's response to it?

I should have said the Bull's argument is:

People can still afford to buy (if they compromise on location and specification) but they won't buy (because the compromises are unacceptable to them).

If I were a FTB, neither would I. I'd rent, build up a deposit and watch the market closely.

[dogbox]

What a load of shit.

So are you telling me, that after working hard for 8 years and saving nearly £40k as a first time buyer I don't deserve anything more then a flat in a run down part of my area?

Wake up you bunch of clowns.

You silly little Pr%ck.

Right now 21.4 million British chickens (clever, feeling, emotional beasts actually) are crammed together, 7 to a tiny cage, thier feet blistered and horrenduously burned from standing 24/7 in thier own excrement, going insane with unrelenting stress just so u can put a cheap egg into your gut.

Thats what I call trully undeserved not your pathetic desire to own a better home than the reasonable one u can afford. Grow up.

[Nomadd]

Sorry, you've lost me.  How was my post (quoted above) a flaming? 

It surprised me that Nomadd thinks he deserves to be able to buy in his chosen suburb.  Even if he could afford to buy at today's prices, should he?  Renting makes much more sense.  If he's so intent on buying, he will have to look at a cheaper area.  He is unwilling to do this, for all the reasons he has outlined (and I have read), so he won't.  That is his choice in the current market. 

I think if you read Nomadd's responses to my posts you might reconsider who is bullying whom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, dude, I never accussed you of bullying me. I wouldn't let that happen. Ever.

What I take exception to is the fact that you never seem to respond to anything I've said. You just jump in with your own opinion, completely disregarding anything I've said. And you seem to be doing that with all the other posters too who disagree with you. Where on this entire forum have I ever said I wish to buy a property? Where on this entire forum have I ever said that I can't afford to buy. I've said quite the opposite - read the posts in this thread.

You replies get flames because they are both inconsiderate and ill-conceived. And rude. Someone doesn't agree with you, so you accuse them of being a 'spoilt brat'? Dude, I stopped being a brat 40 years ago, and unfortunately for me I was never spoilt. You need to stop looking in the mirror. You just don't seem to be able to respond to anything anyone states. You reponses like "It's a jungle out there" and "who said people deserve property" and "spoilt brat" etc., etc. are just not mature.

Please, if you want me to respond to this thread again - which you probably don't - then go back and pull my comments together in a quote block. Then tackle each issue with a point-by-point rebuttal. But please, don't tell me and everyone else that we "don't deserve" or "Southgate = Hampstead" or any other such nonsense. Stick to the issues raised and you'll get far fairer responses.

Nomadd

[JustYield]

Hey, dude, I never accussed you of bullying me. I wouldn't let that happen. Ever.

...

What I take exception to is the fact that you never seem to respond to anything I've said.

...

Nomadd

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[DonnieDarker]

You silly little Pr%ck. 

Right now 21.4 million British chickens (clever, feeling, emotional beasts actually) are crammed together, 7 to a tiny cage, thier feet blistered and horrenduously burned from standing 24/7 in thier own excrement, going insane with unrelenting stress just so u can put a cheap egg into your gut.

Thats what I call trully undeserved not your pathetic desire to own a better home than the reasonable one u can afford. Grow up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good effort dogbox but still an absurdly overblown analogy.

A simpler answer is: just rent.

Really, the sort of individuals (I include myself in this category) who can save 40k over 8 years should not be moaning about unaffordable housing quite as much as they do.

Because invariably these same individuals are the ones who can afford to rent a bloody nice apartment. They have the luxury of renting somewhere nice, having a high quality of life whilst waiting for the reight opportunity in the housing market.

The ones you want to feel sorry for are those on a terrible wage and with debts piling up who have to rent in a sh*thole.

[Casual Observer]

Average salary 22.5K

Average house price 165K

Multiple of 7.3

Perhaps, he could find a below average house for less, but why should he, he is, by definition, average. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Go back 30 years and the 3.5 multiple only worked on 2 salaries, not 1. Or at least in my neck of the woods (London and S.East)

[FernandoMorientes]

Good effort dogbox but still an absurdly overblown analogy.

A simpler answer is: just rent.

Really, the sort of individuals (I include myself in this category) who can save 40k over 8 years should not be moaning about unaffordable housing quite as much as they do.

Because invariably these same individuals are the ones who can afford to rent a bloody nice apartment. They have the luxury of renting somewhere nice, having a high quality of life whilst waiting for the reight opportunity in the housing market.

The ones you want to feel sorry for are those on a terrible wage and with debts piling up who have to rent in a sh*thole.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Better still buy one of Dogbox,s sh*tholes when its up for Repo

[nervous northerner]

I for one hope that FTB's continue with these mythical 'high expectations' as they will prevent them from buying and exacerbate a crash.

[Waiting Patiently]

Of course it will run out.. But the bull run may be longer .. Or stagnation may take place..

Are there not several recent examples that demonstrate that stagnation sets in after the price of an asset has crashed and not when the price of that asset is sky-high as UK house prices are at the moment?

eg. UK share prices (particularly tech stocks) after the crash in 2000, Japanese shares after their stock market crashed from almost 40,000 points to less than 10,000 in the late eighties, and UK house prices after the last crash 15 years ago.

What Im saying is that the price of the grossly overvalued asset (shares, property, or whatever) crashes and then stagnation sets in after that (presenting buying opportunities for contrarians who do not follow the herd.)

[geometric]

My name.....don't you have a sense of humour?

  I don't really think I'm the king of the castle!

As for your friends, well they chose to go to uni, they chose to take those debts on. Why should I pay for them? If I chose to go on a round the world cruise for 3 years and later on complained that I couldn't afford the debt I'd racked up, do you think I'd have a sympathetic ear from any one?

If they've chosen to go to uni, then decided to take a job that doesn't give them the requisite delayed gratification needed to make up for the 3 years they 'took off' whos fault is that?

I don't wish anything upon anyone (unlike you) but at the same time nor do I have the time or patience for people who think they should have the middle of the property ladder delievered to them on a plate! You buy as much as you can when young, and move up as soon as you're able. Crashed out and Burned (who seems far more moderate than the poster last night who claimed he NEEDED a 3 bed semi 'with a garage' whilst on a sh*t wage) was complaining yesterday that there was 'nothing' for him in Watford, a quick look on Rightmove showed a lot of one bedders at or around 100-120k. What is wrong with those? He's on £22k P.A what does he expect? He wants to live near London he has to pay the price! If he bought when young a one bedder is all he would NEED, build up some equity, pay some off the mortgage and move on! It really really is that simple, you guys go on as though buying a property is some sort of pledge with the devil!

It's always been tough, no one ever landed a 3 bed semi without sacrifices and commitment....... But there again being the son/daughter of a bank manager perhaps you haven't had the reality check you needed when you were young?

KOTC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

KOTC, yes I have a sense of humour but you guys brag about your brilliant positions the whole time, I find seeing posts by dogbox (dogs bollo**s), TTRTR, KOTC vulgar given the seriousness of the issues being discussed. As to your comment about my friends going to university, well they are paying back their debts and dont complain about it.

This country really does need educated people so it is a shared risk; graduates take on a financial risk of getting higher education but also they dont pay the full cost of their education as the government supplies a significant proportion of the cost of running universities. In case you miss the point here there is a general recognition that we need educated people around and we pay for some of it out of the common purse.

I am trying to make the point that not everyone is in the business of working the property market and it is a good thing if we want services like engineering, teaching, medicine and so on. The fact is that many people are in a position of hardship because of the aggression of the housing market.

An old saw is that compassion is the hallmark of an educated mind, KOTC. I find your mockery of people who are having a hard time offensive.

[dogbox]

I am trying to make the point that not everyone is in the business of working the property market and it is a good thing

The fact is that many people are in a position of hardship because of the aggression of the housing market.

Lets dispell a few myths about Bulls. I imagine bears think people with a few or more properties are greedy scheming fat cats. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I know a sweet smiley Ugandan. He is a care worker and has a second job temping.

His wife is also a care worker.

They are not rich but when they came to move house a few years back he decided to bite the bullet and let - out the current one and buy a second to live in. He repeated this twice more. Hardly a fat cat, just an ordinary guy trying to carve out a secure future for him and his much loved kids.

Ive met countless B2L like this. Ive met a few materialistic tossars obviously, but they are not the norm.

[CrashIsUnderWay]

so what are you rtying to say dogbollx? that you are an exception?

[King of the castle]

KOTC, yes I have a sense of humour but you guys brag about your brilliant positions the whole time, I find seeing posts by dogbox (dogs bollo**s), TTRTR, KOTC vulgar given the seriousness of the issues being discussed. As to your comment about my friends going to university, well they are paying back their debts and dont complain about it.

This country really does need educated people so it is a shared risk; graduates take on a financial risk of getting higher education but also they dont pay the full cost of their education as the government supplies a significant proportion of the cost of running universities. In case you miss the point here there is a general recognition that we need educated people around and we pay for some of it out of the common purse.

I am trying to make the point that not everyone is in the business of working the property market and it is a good thing if we want services like engineering, teaching, medicine and so on. The fact is that many people are in a position of hardship because of the aggression of the housing market.

An old saw is that compassion is the hallmark of an educated mind, KOTC. I find your mockery of people who are having a hard time offensive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never bragged about my position, you don't even know my position, how can can you say I brag about my position if you don't even know it?

All you know is I'm a landlord, if you class that as bragging then at the risk of being rude, you really are too sensitive to have a serious discussion with. If your friends are paying back their debts and aren't complaining about it, why bring them into the equation? In all honesty that to me, makes it sound as though you are trying to create a problem that doesn't exist in the first place!

You find my mockery of people having a hard time offensive. Well in reply I may say that I find your molly coddling of people who are in charge of their own futures offensive. I also find it offensive that you totally disregard the advice of someone who knows what they are talking about, and has been in the situation than these people are currently in! As I said before as an upper middle class bank managers dtr/son you are hardly the story of rags to riches are you? You're hardly the proof of the pudding that you can overcome adversity and lack of opportunity.

Your over the top false concern (I say false because you admit yourself that your friends aren't complaining) is probably some sort of mid life middle England guilt trip rather than an honest heartfelt compassion.

If you want to see true hardship and poverty you need to look way beyond your 'safe little circle' of teachers and doctors who can't find £500 to fix their car. Try looking at the single mother who is looking for her next £2.00 to buy her kids dinner! That my friend is where you will see some true hardship!

KOTC.

[munimula]

Try looking at the single mother who is looking for her next £2.00 to buy her kids dinner! That my friend is where you will see some true hardship!

KOTC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not hardship read this article from the BBC, learn about the real UK that you live in KOTC or are you so far removed from it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4192461.stm

Benefits for families with children have doubled since 1997

Two-parent families on average incomes are barely £1 a week better off than their single counterparts, the Centre for Policy Studies has said.

Its report said that the state benefit system was skewed in favour of lone parents and if couples with children split, they would be wealthier.

Lone parents are five times more likely to get state benefits than two-parent households, the centre's report said.

But another think tank said it was unfair to suggest benefits should go.

Single benefits

  Welfare support should be limited to short-term relief of hardship

Jill Kirby, Centre for Policy Studies 

The report compared the financial position of a two-parent family, with one earner, on an average income of £24,000 with that of a lone parent claiming full state benefits.

It found that the financial positions of the two households were nearly identical.

This is due to the greater likelihood that lone parents will be in receipt of state benefits.

State support for families with children has doubled since 1997.

Fewer chances

"The bias against two-parent families must be removed," Jill Kirby, policy analyst at the Centre for Policy Studies, said.

"Welfare support should be limited to short-term relief of hardship and should not be a substitute for family support."

However, Kate Stanley, a researcher at the Institute for Public Policy Research, said the higher level of benefits paid to lone parents was simply the government "doing its job".

"Lone parents have fewer life chances...it is unhelpful and unfair to suggest that benefits should be withdrawn," she said.

[King of the castle]

That's not hardship read this article from the BBC, learn about the real UK that you live in KOTC or are you so far removed from it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4192461.stm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi MM

I was relatively speaking in comparison to Geometric's middle class teachers and Doctor friends. I am not far removed from the UK and wouldn't wish the benefits system upon anyone. How you can even begin to compare professional people to housing benefit tenants is beyond me. When was the last time you saw a teacher/doctor with a 'pay as you go' gas/electric meter?

KOTC.

[zzg113]

Try looking at the single mother who is looking for her next £2.00 to buy her kids dinner! That my friend is where you will see some true hardship!

If you can't feed 'em don't breed them.

Maybe then people in this country will stop treating having children as a lifestyle accessory and consider more carefully before they introduce yet more human beings into the world.

Having and bringing up children is a serious responsibility, not something to be done on a whim "cos all yar mates are 'avin' one".

[RichM]

If you can't feed 'em don't breed them.

Maybe then people in this country will stop treating having children as a lifestyle accessory and consider more carefully before they introduce yet more human beings into the world.

Having and bringing up children is a serious responsibility, not something to be done on a whim "cos all yar mates are 'avin' one".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn right zzg, your conservative party membership form is in the post

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

I think it's quite easy to feed children. People have been doing this for millions of years.

Housing them has become quite hard though.

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

When was the last time you saw a teacher/doctor with a 'pay as you go' gas/electric meter?

Three of my ex customers who were Doctors each had one, and one teacher.

I must admit they were all a little eccentric especially the doctor who worked at the local Mental Hospital, he had a dog called Valium. Seriously.

[Gooner]

They are talking about a 70% mortality rate as opposed to a normal 1% rate for common or garden flu pandemics.

And it aint the very young or very old it kills unlike normal flu, its usually the fit under 30's it clobbers.

Roll on pandemic...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am 100% with KOTC here - there's NO place for this kinda crap. Utterly utterly offensive

Where's the mediation?

[Casual Observer]

And most lend 3.5, wheres that leave us? Far to expensive houses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most people buy a house as a couple, always have done.

[zzg113]

Most people buy a house as a couple, always have done.

Not anymore. (I would dispute whether this was ever the case. You have no evidence for your statement above that "most" ie the majority of of UK PPR puchases were or are by couples)

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000002D3A7.htm

According to a study conducted by the UK Future Foundation for Abbey National in January 2002, for the first time more people are living alone or in one-parent households than in a traditional family unit - or as one article summed it up, 'Living alone is now the norm in the UK' (1).