urban_hymn Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I opened an account with Finspreads about 4 weeks ago. The experience hasn't been too costly so far but it's harder than I thought. You don't realise how volatile prices are until you have a fiver a point on them I didn't realise just how many things require checking before you make a trade! The Finspreads website seems painfully slow - at most times of the day it seems impossible to move a stop loss or close a position online. I could foresee this being a costly problem one day. Does anyone know if there is a company with a better (faster) online trading platform than Finspreads? I'm accessing the service with a 512k broadband connection so I don't think the problem's at this end. hymn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzg113 Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Try CMC spreadbet, Big Bad Bear (pro trader on this site) swears by them: http://www.deal4free.com/spreadbet/benefits_details01.jsp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 Thanks for that ZZG I'll check them out! hymn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempstar Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Deal for free have a minimum opening deposit of £1000. The spreads looked tighter than IG, but I joined IG because I didnt want to stump up £1000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 £1k to get started is a lot for a newbie I suppose. You don't have to use it though! It's the snappines and speed of the platform that I'm interested in. Finspreads would be useless if you were a busy day trader as far as my experience goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempstar Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Yeah I know, I just didnt want to tie up £1k there doing nothing. I placed my first spread bet today actually. Predictably, Countrywide Nothing huge, just £10 a point. They are reporting their annual results next week, so hopefully that will bring some good (i.e. bad) news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Bad_Bear Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I would consider £10pp a big bet if you have less than £1k capital in there. You face being wiped out in one go if the stock were to rise 20% on good results. Don't rule it out. Both BARC and RBS are stocks that have fallen heavilly on poor results of late and I have seen a few FTSE250 stocks rise on poor results. Why? Because the price is based on market expectation. If everyone expects CWD results to be poor then the fall is priced in and has already happened. Then you risk an upside suprise if the results are not as bad as expected. Anyway, it's your own risk but there is an old saying that's worth trading buy. Buy the rumour, sell the news. Shorts on companies you expect to have bad news are best placed 3-4 months in advance. Hence the need for a crystal ball (or titanium ones). Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledgehead Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 I would consider £10pp a big bet if you have less than £1k capital in there. You face being wiped out in one go if the stock were to rise 20% on good results. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed BBB. My advice is if 1k seems like a lot of money, don't even think about getting involved. My second piece of advice is at first to play with sums that mean nothing to you financially. Try to concentrate on just being right. Some people advise paper trading but even with the tight spreads of deal4free / capital spreads, actual trading is far tricker than most people think. Hence my advice to bet something, even if financially it means nothing to you. If you find small bets aren't giving you any sense of pressure then you have achieved nearly the right level of betting. Try and increase the pressure by bragging to your mates about how the position is going to work out for you (but try not to drag them on board!). If you have a natural adversary brag to them. This will focus your mind on achieving top performance without risking your hard earned, which, in this game can be easily lost. Secondly you must find a consisyent trading strategy. If you aren't clear whether you have a strategy, believe me, you haven't got one. WRT trading on fundamentals, take what BBB says seriously. In markets the key is EXPECTATION. If everybody expects bad results, don't expect your stock to automatically plunge whern this occurs. This is especially true of larger stocks, not only because they are extensively studied by insitutions, but because it is possible to hedge against adverse movements in options and futures. In this way ant bad news may not send insitutions running in panic but merely congratulating themseves on good hedging. A good example of the latter was the MKS / Green takeover. The shares shot up on the takeover announcement, but dealers seemed worried about the prospect of the t/o falling thru. How many times were we told about the huge short positions that had been built up, just waiting for the stock to plunge when the takeover failed? The takeover failed indeed, but the huge short positions never got their reward for being right. Essentially all those shorts told us that the t/o was expected to fail and as such, it was highly unlikely the shares would fall when this occured. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Bad_Bear Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Edit above, BARC and RBS fell on good results. Why, because people had bought in before expecting good results. Then when they are proved right............er.........take profits.....yeah. Same with shorting poor companies. You need to see something that others don't like with BB and PAG. Take the road less travelled. If trading was as easy as predicting poor results then it would be easy. And it isn't. Or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 £10pp seems a lot me as well. Even at £2pp things can go wrong quite quickly. I've started off with £500.00. Frustratingly, after about twenty trades I seem to be more or less where I started. If I'd spent the same amount of time doing my own job I probably would have been about £300.00 up The action always seems to be somewhere else and as for Thierry Laduguie who contributes spread betting tips to Moneyweek magazine his predictions are utterly useless. If he says short a stock then go long - that's my tip! It's very early days for me but I can't imagine how anybody could make a living doing it. It's tempting to imagine sitting at home in front of a couple of screens making two or three well thought out trades a day and trousering a grand for your trouble but in reality it's a black art or perhaps just luck! BTW does anyone know a relatively fast spread betting site? Finspreads always seems to be too logjammed during the day for tasks like moving stop losses etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzg113 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 as for Thierry Laduguie who contributes spread betting tips to Moneyweek magazine his predictions are utterly useless. UH, I have a tip for you: all tips are useless. Think about it: if Thierry really knows which stock is going to bomb this week, why is he writing some crappy tip sheet instead of sipping Margharitas on his yacht and doing a couple of trades a day which keep him in Cristal and Cuban cigars? If a person knew where a goldmine was located, do you really think they would tell you where it is? My advice FWIW (not a lot) is to do your own research (DYOR), work out which stocks YOU think are going to bomb, and short them yourself. Or, if that seems to much like hard work, simply buy a portfolio of high-yield stocks and forget about them: http://www.fool.co.uk/news/foolseyeview/20...m?ref=valuehome http://www.fool.co.uk/news/foolseyeview/20...m?ref=valuehome These articles are aimed at retired people, but I think the strategy would work for just about anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 UH, I have a tip for you: all tips are useless. When I heaped scorn on Thierry Laduguie I was being humourous. I found out at great expense during the boom (and bust) of tech shares that tips are generally worthless. I am much, much more cynical these days. I am not spread betting for capital growth maybe just trying to cash in on my conviction that the house price bubble is soon to burst. I am shorting anything that might be brought down with it. I am trying at all costs to preserve my capital and my stop losses permit very litle wiggle room. If the market goes against me then I'm stopped out, a few quid worse off. To paraphrase Big Bad Bear it's not enough to short obvious stocks like Paragon and Countrywide you have to think outside the box and select stocks that have not yet had the gloom priced into them. I am staggered and amazed at the number of very expensive spread betting tipsters out there. Thierry Laduguie sells a once a month tip service for £357.00 per annum I think it is. In the small print at the bottom of the ad it says his past recommendations have netted .7% repeat .7% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzg113 Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 trying to cash in on my conviction that the house price bubble is soon to burst. I am shorting anything that might be brought down with it. The other way of making money from this conviction is to go long those businesses that will prosper from it, ie insolvency practitioners, debt consolidation firms, pawnbrokers, debt recovery agencies, etc. For example DebtFreeDirect: http://www.londonstockexchange.com/en-gb/p...XAIMI3236028DFD I am shorting anything that might be brought down with it. Things that come to mind are luxury car dealers, luxury goods retailers (LVMH, Gucci, etc) as people cut back on discretionary spending. Also might be an idea to go long the cheap and cheerful retailers, ie Asda, Tesco, etc. I am staggered and amazed at the number of very expensive spread betting tipsters out there. Thierry Laduguie sells a once a month tip service for £357.00 per annum I think it is. In the small print at the bottom of the ad it says his past recommendations have netted .7% repeat .7% "There's a sucker born every minute."-PT Barnum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 ZZG DFD - already got some though I'm not too sure if they are a star in the making or not. I believe the service they provide is duplicated by others at no cost. They've done diddley squat recently. Perhaps that's because they were tipped in Moneyweek a while back - the kiss of death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledgehead Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 ZZG DFD - already got some though I'm not too sure if they are a star in the making or not. I believe the service they provide is duplicated by others at no cost. They've done diddley squat recently. Perhaps that's because they were tipped in Moneyweek a while back - the kiss of death <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You seem cynical enough to me. I use deal4free like BBB, as well as futures. With deal4free the spread is 2 points on ftse, haalf of that reqd by others. Capital spreads also quote a 2 point spread on ftse rolling cash bets. Futures are cheaper still, but there are tax implications and if you've ever filed a cgt tax return with more than a couple of hundred entries you'll know there are significant advantages to zero tax instruments, other than just monetarily. You should be aware that spread bet quotes differ (sometimes considerably) from quotes in the actual cash market as sb quotes are based around fair value as derived from the stock's / index futures. Expect them to move with interest rate futures therefore as fair values move about. Making regular money from trading requires commitment, capital, experience, knowledge, judgement, independence of thought and courage. Don't think having a better than average idea about where markets are headed is all it takes either. This is merely a necessary condition for success. In order to be successful you must also be acutely aware of how market situations will make you react. If this will be to your disavantage you must be aable to act pre-emptively. In other words, you must understand both the market and yourself. Hardly surprising therefore that few succeed. Many traders draw sporting parallels. Paper trading is a bit like taking practice penalties. Part time trading is like taking penalties on the common with your mates of a sunday afternoon. But trading for a living with meaningful amounts of money is like taking penalties at the cup final. Suddenly the pressure is on and even the pros crack at the worst possible moment. Yet it is this sense of epic battle, both against huge market forces and your own demons that attracts people. Sadly many are called, but few will be "chosen." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flick Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Does anyone know exactly when countrywide are releasing their latest results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 Making regular money from trading requires commitment, capital, experience, knowledge, judgement, independence of thought and courage.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah and then the market still does the opposite of what it should. The only way I could ever make any money is to grind away making a few quid on a lot of trades. I haven't got the balls to stake more than £10pp on anything other than a dead cert.! Plus it's fairly tedious watching your overall profit/loss going -£20.10 +£15.90 -£8.37 +£20.16 etc. etc. You need big numbers to make it interesting/scary! On a different note am I correct in thinking that quotes for say September Wimpey or September Countrywide contain no forecasting element at all? They are just slightly higher because of the cost of carry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Bad_Bear Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 The market does what it does. No point shouting at the monitor. If it's too hot, get out. It's a job and a skilled one, like any other. Somebody has to put money into the market for the pro's to take out. Just make sure you aren't one of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I'm going to have a go at trading full time (my current contract has just finished). I'm currently reading the book "Trading For a Living" by Alexander Elder which makes a comparison between traders and alcoholics. Most traders can't help their losses, just as most alcoholics can't help drinking. Most trader think they can control their losses, just as most alcoholics think they can control their drinking. There is a difference between a small loss that comes as a business risk, and a large loss that results from traders crossing the line between trading and gambling (i.e. becoming "losers"). Urban_hymn, in my admittedly limited experience there is no such thing as a "dead cert"! "The market is never wrong, but opinions often are," so the old saying goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 Urban_hymn, in my admittedly limited experience there is no such thing as a "dead cert"! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I know , that's why I only bet 2 quid a tic and have wiggleless stop losses. I have actually turned £500.00 into £512 in four weeks so this mug punter hasn't been wiped out yet Various posters keep emphasising the skills involved in being a trader, It seems to me that you could have an excellent knowledge of macro economics, market behaviour, technical analysis etc. and still ***k up efforlessly. I hope it works out for you Van - it sounds like one of the best jobs on the planet if you can make it happen. Location - anywhere with broadband, making a living with a few mouse clicks. Sounds too good to be true which is what it is for all but a handful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Bad_Bear Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Under 10% of traders make money in the markets. The rest subsidise them and all the related services. Alder is a good read although I feel a little outdated. He has some solid priciples though. As for turning 500 into 512, that's 3% in a month. Not bad if you annualise it. Not good if you are doing it full time but it does show you have your principles in place. As for trading full time, it's hardly a few mouse clicks a day. There's a fair bit of research to make it. You must also disregard the link between risk and reward and look for low risk, high reward situations. Contrary to 'expert' opinion, they do exist. Naked shorts on companies prior to results cannot be classified in those terms though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 As for trading full time, it's hardly a few mouse clicks a day<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was being a bit tongue in cheek with that comment. I would have nothing but respect for someone who could make a living divining the baffling movement of the financial markets. It's a very seductive image though! It seems to me that you have to start winning straightaway. Money is not something you can "practice" with. I expect very many newbie amateur traders drop out very quickly. Watching that overall profit and loss go negative is profoundly scary, a loss of control. God know what it must feel like if the figure is thousands? Nick Leeson must have had some ********! On the other hand I must admit it is a buzz watching the numbers go positive. On a different subject, Paragon still looks like a great short but I'm not sure what to take into consideration when timing it. I don't want to get stopped out by a brief upward spike. I'm still too cautious (cowardly) with my stop losses to allow much wiggle. It took me a while to twig why people set so much store by the tightness of spreads but I get it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzg113 Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Money is not something you can "practice" with. What about paper trading (ie trading a notional portfolio)? If you try and make it as realistic as possible (ie using real prices and including frictional trading costs, etc) you can at least get some "trading practice" in without risking any capital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban_hymn Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 What about paper trading <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah, I'm doing it with real money already, albeit small amounts. Paper trading is too dry and academic. Plus it completely ignores the psychological component. The trades you would make on paper would be far bolder than the ones made with real cash. I would have shorted Paragon at £100.00 pp on paper by now. As it is I'm hesitating over a stake of £5 when doing it for real. The arithmetic's easy, it's having the courage of your convictions that's the hard bit ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest muttley Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I have bought equities for a few years now,and tend to stick to the Warren Buffet "Buy and Hold"method.(He's better at it than me) Spread betting strikes me as the same as betting on the outcome of football matches (which I'm hopeless at). Doesn't the bookie,beit Deal4Free or William Hill,always win?Aren't you just as much a "punter" as the guy who sticks a few quid on the 2.45 from Chepstow? Why would you do better than him by reading the Financial Times instead of the Sporting Life? Come on guys,sell it to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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