Differential House Price Falls According To Location

[Methinkshe]

My mother owns a 3 bed semi on the Sussex coast - value at April 2007 approx £250,000. We are going to have to move her nearer to us in North Cornwall. There is a new development just a couple of miles from us where she has seen a smaller end terrace bungalow - brand new - with a very, very small garden, which suits her because she has just had heart by-pass surgery. It's up for £210,000 - not made any enquiry about discounts yet, largely because out of a development of 36 properties only 2 or 3 are still available - they're nice builds, for a change. I'm wondering how to achieve the best transaction for her. She wants to buy (no mortgage required) because she would feel insecure renting and doesn't need the stress. Is there a differential devaluation between North Cornwall properties and Sussex Coast properties that could be exploited does anyone know? I have at the back of my mind the possibility that prices will fall faster in Cornwall than in Sussex and that it might be possible if, say, she lived with us for a few months, to exploit such a differential devaluation.

[cartimandua51]

My mother owns a 3 bed semi on the Sussex coast - value at April 2007 approx £250,000. We are going to have to move her nearer to us in North Cornwall. There is a new development just a couple of miles from us where she has seen a smaller end terrace bungalow - brand new - with a very, very small garden, which suits her because she has just had heart by-pass surgery. It's up for £210,000 - not made any enquiry about discounts yet, largely because out of a development of 36 properties only 2 or 3 are still available - they're nice builds, for a change. I'm wondering how to achieve the best transaction for her. She wants to buy (no mortgage required) because she would feel insecure renting and doesn't need the stress. Is there a differential devaluation between North Cornwall properties and Sussex Coast properties that could be exploited does anyone know? I have at the back of my mind the possibility that prices will fall faster in Cornwall than in Sussex and that it might be possible if, say, she lived with us for a few months, to exploit such a differential devaluation.

You don't say how old your mother is, but given that she's just had by-pass surgery I assume she's either pretty elderly or not in the bast of health. IMHO This is a case where you go for what you want, and the finances be hanged. A house is for living in, and being happy and settled in, right? Your Mum isn't an investment portfolio, she's an old(ish) lady who might live for decades, but equally might only have a few months. If she wants that house, buy it while it's on offer!

[Methinkshe]

You don't say how old your mother is, but given that she's just had by-pass surgery I assume she's either pretty elderly or not in the bast of health. IMHO This is a case where you go for what you want, and the finances be hanged. A house is for living in, and being happy and settled in, right? Your Mum isn't an investment portfolio, she's an old(ish) lady who might live for decades, but equally might only have a few months. If she wants that house, buy it while it's on offer!

She's 80 and although could still live independently once recovered from surgery (she is currently convalescing with us until after Christmas) should not be too far away from relatives who care. Re finances, she's just taken a £3000 hit on a Norwich Union investment this year (arranged by my brother, I might add, not me - brother is a financial director of a Financial Leasing Company so why would he listen to me) so I'm trying to help rebuild her finances from which she gets a little additional income to her OAP. I quite agree that her comfort is the prime consideration, but if while securing that I could do something towards repairing her losses (I'm trying to get my brother to cash in the Norwich Union Bonds because I think that they have nowhere else to go but burn in money hell) I'd be happy.

[cartimandua51]

When my mum was 82 she had to move (long story, not relevant to your circs) into hideously unsuitable accommodation suddenly. Notwithstanding its awfulness she was really reluctant to move again because of the disruption - not easy at that age (or any! but particularly for the 80+s. )

If she comes to live with you will that work? I'd have said it was better for her to move into her own place straightaway if poss.

FWIW I wouldn't have thought there would be much differential - different markets, but what you lose on the London overspill on the one hand, you lose on the remoteness and possible belt-tightening of second homes on the other. The prospective house sounds ideal (other people her own age there too?) and might not be easily replicated.

[Methinkshe]

When my mum was 82 she had to move (long story, not relevant to your circs) into hideously unsuitable accommodation suddenly. Notwithstanding its awfulness she was really reluctant to move again because of the disruption - not easy at that age (or any! but particularly for the 80+s. )

If she comes to live with you will that work? I'd have said it was better for her to move into her own place straightaway if poss.

FWIW I wouldn't have thought there would be much differential - different markets, but what you lose on the London overspill on the one hand, you lose on the remoteness and possible belt-tightening of second homes on the other. The prospective house sounds ideal (other people her own age there too?) and might not be easily replicated.

Thanks for your reply. I'm thinking that North Cornwall could devaluse quicker and greater than Sussex Coast. But maybe you are right - just do the job and stop trying to seek a financial advantage. If it weren't for those pesky Norwich Union Bonds.......

[cartimandua51]

Thanks for your reply. I'm thinking that North Cornwall could devaluse quicker and greater than Sussex Coast. But maybe you are right - just do the job and stop trying to seek a financial advantage. If it weren't for those pesky Norwich Union Bonds.......

That's a Sunk Cost - aka That was then and This is now. What would you be thinking had the bonds never existed (which for all practical purposes now, they didn't)?

Anybody else out there with an opinion?

Edited December 5, 2007 by cartimandua51

[microbe]

As things stand, trying to buy and sell at the same time could be very fraught.

Try and avoid a chain if you can. If it is feasible to have her move in with you for a time, I would do that, then she will be separated from the stress of the sale.

In this sort of market, if your mother has cash sitting on deposit you can expect builders to be very enthusiastic to deal with her.

Once you have sold, time is then on your side - your pounds will be appreciating relative to the value of the property you want to buy with them.

There is another matter you might want to consider and that is that if your mother's health deteriorates to the point where she needs round the clock care, the state could force her to sell her home to pay for it. Might be worth thinking how you could protect her capital in all scenarios. For example, she might be better off giving you and your brother the money and the two of you then using it to buy the bungalow for her. I am not knowledgeable in this area though, might be worth finding someone who is.

My view is that your father and mother have already paid for that care through tax and NI over her lifetime. If you can avoid her having to pay twice, do so.

[cartimandua51]

Once you have sold, time is then on your side - your pounds will be appreciating relative to the value of the property you want to buy with them.

There is another matter you might want to consider and that is that if your mother's health deteriorates to the point where she needs round the clock care, the state could force her to sell her home to pay for it. Might be worth thinking how you could protect her capital in all scenarios. For example, she might be better off giving you and your brother the money and the two of you then using it to buy the bungalow for her. I am not knowledgeable in this area though, might be worth finding someone who is.

My view is that your father and mother have already paid for that care through tax and NI over her lifetime. If you can avoid her having to pay twice, do so.

This is one thing that WON'T work - the Local Authorities are extremely hot on people divesting themselves of their assets in this way - I believe there was a case (sorry I can't give you chapter and verse) where the disallowed something 20 years previously!

[Methinkshe]

As things stand, trying to buy and sell at the same time could be very fraught.

Try and avoid a chain if you can. If it is feasible to have her move in with you for a time, I would do that, then she will be separated from the stress of the sale.

In this sort of market, if your mother has cash sitting on deposit you can expect builders to be very enthusiastic to deal with her.

Once you have sold, time is then on your side - your pounds will be appreciating relative to the value of the property you want to buy with them.

There is another matter you might want to consider and that is that if your mother's health deteriorates to the point where she needs round the clock care, the state could force her to sell her home to pay for it. Might be worth thinking how you could protect her capital in all scenarios. For example, she might be better off giving you and your brother the money and the two of you then using it to buy the bungalow for her. I am not knowledgeable in this area though, might be worth finding someone who is.

My view is that your father and mother have already paid for that care through tax and NI over her lifetime. If you can avoid her having to pay twice, do so.

I'm willing to offer the care - but from a 2 mile distance not a 200 mile distance! I've just spent 9 weeks away from my family giving 200 mile distant care to mother, and I can't do it again - I have children with their own needs. However, I think mother still has some independent living ability within her and I would be the last to deny that to her. Perhaps I ought to start negotiating with the developers and see if I can get a discount. However, that is problematic in that she doesn't have the cash to buy the house until she has sold the one she is presently living in. Maybe put that house on market first and see what transpires. But do we pay to reserve the house near us that she is interested in or just wait and hope that HPC will ensure that it remains on sale? Or perhaps I just ought to forget altogether an possible future downturns and make the transaction at the declared prices. Maybe trying to steal a march is more inhibiting that exhilarating....

[microbe]

I'm willing to offer the care - but from a 2 mile distance not a 200 mile distance!

I think the best result financially will be achieved if you can arrange to sell her house (exchange contracts) before you commit on another property.

Organising that is, of course, a different matter.

[Tin Foil Hat]

The giving away of possessions thing has something to do with income generated from it, and you either charge a nominal rent of 2 pence per year or whatever, or something like that and it clears you round it.

Also it varies according to what sort of care home (residential vs nursing) as to the finances.

OT but worth knowing if cardiac rehab haven't told you:

Tell her to do everything they say to help recover from the CABG- my observed top tips to making them last a long time is aggressive risk factor modification and lifestyle changes. Also women often don't show the same classic chest pain type symptoms for cardiac pain and/or other problems, so she needs to know what her individual symptoms are so she can recognise things early should any twinges or pains or whatever recur. One person I dealt with had toothache and that was the only symptom she had from a full heart attack. And finally get her to get a copy of her latest ECG trace (A4 sized paper with 12 sets of squiggles on it) and put it into her purse, so if in the future she goes to A&E, the docs and nurses can compare it to help evaluate how the heart is functioning (even if it was years ago). The problem when assessing a cardiac patient in A&E is that if you don't have old ECG's to hand, then because the CABG op often changes the 'normal' traces (squiggles) to a different pattern, you can't work out if there are changes that are 'new' or just the 'new normal' following the operation. It's very important diagnostically but not all people carry theirs with them.

TFH

NB: Nothing I say should replace the advice of the doctors or nurses looking after your mother. Do not rely on my advice but seek advice from a healthcare professional.

[Methinkshe]

The giving away of possessions thing has something to do with income generated from it, and you either charge a nominal rent of 2 pence per year or whatever, or something like that and it clears you round it.

Also it varies according to what sort of care home (residential vs nursing) as to the finances.

OT but worth knowing if cardiac rehab haven't told you:

Tell her to do everything they say to help recover from the CABG- my observed top tips to making them last a long time is aggressive risk factor modification and lifestyle changes. Also women often don't show the same classic chest pain type symptoms for cardiac pain and/or other problems, so she needs to know what her individual symptoms are so she can recognise things early should any twinges or pains or whatever recur. One person I dealt with had toothache and that was the only symptom she had from a full heart attack. And finally get her to get a copy of her latest ECG trace (A4 sized paper with 12 sets of squiggles on it) and put it into her purse, so if in the future she goes to A&E, the docs and nurses can compare it to help evaluate how the heart is functioning (even if it was years ago). The problem when assessing a cardiac patient in A&E is that if you don't have old ECG's to hand, then because the CABG op often changes the 'normal' traces (squiggles) to a different pattern, you can't work out if there are changes that are 'new' or just the 'new normal' following the operation. It's very important diagnostically but not all people carry theirs with them.

TFH

NB: Nothing I say should replace the advice of the doctors or nurses looking after your mother. Do not rely on my advice but seek advice from a healthcare professional.

Thanks for the advice. We've already had complication on complication - that's why I was away 9 weeks - first a sub-clavial thrombosis (should have been expected since she has had two previous DVTs and is Lieden Factor 5) followed by congestive heart failure because taken off digoxin and diuretics (due to atrial fibrillation) too early. Resulted in two additional stays in hospital following CABG. Present problem is terrible stabbing pains in chest - mother is sure that surgeons have left a sharp instrument in place (!!) or that the titanium wiring that is used to re-connect the sternum has some sharp point that stabs every time she moves in a certain way. Presently she is on Warfarin which in itself is problematic if living alone and experiencing a fall, say. Which is why I would prefer to have her 2 miles away from me instead of 200. Problem is, what is the best way financially to achieve this.

Edited for typos.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Methinkshe

[REP013]

Haven't seen this on this thread but have you considered part ex?

Will the developer take your mothers property and pay the difference in value in cash (even at a deflated rate)? Not ideal financially but it appears to me that financials are not really at the top of the tree in this case.

Edited December 5, 2007 by REP013

[cartimandua51]

Haven't seen this on this thread but have you considered part ex?

Will the developer take your mothers property and pay the difference in value in cash (even at a deflated rate)? Not ideal financially but it appears to me that financials are not really at the top of the tree in this case.

I couldn't agree more - she's your Mum; you need to be near her (but, ideally, not living with her yet). Presumably she can't, or at least shouldn't be living on her own, and having her house unlived in, with a For Sale notice outside possibly for months on end will give you a whole shedload of other worries. All the disadvantages of a second home with none of the advantages. I know of what I speak; my mother having been in residential care in Nottingham, house empty in Nottingham, me and kids in London - no fun. Neighbours originally very helpful, but then started putting up their relatives up in the house! & using my Mums impeccable credit record to order things from catalogues.... Bad time. In retrospect I would have dropped the price for a quicker sale.

[Tin Foil Hat]

A chest x ray would show objects left in, and pains which take a long time to settle are common. The pain should be controllable to a degree though, downside is zonking people out with pills. Look up atrial fib. and learn to recognise it (irregular pulse which has no 'regularity' to it - an irregularly irregular pulse). As far as it goes atrial fib needs anticoagulation forever as the blood pools somewhat in the heart as it's not getting squeezed quite in the right way and puts you at risk of clot formation which can lead to stroke, DVT, heart attacks etc. As the warfarin level stabilises it does get easier to control the doses and it does it's job pretty well.

With heart failure, unless confirmed not to be in heart failure anymore, then it's important to keep an eye on weight. If possible, the optimum is to weigh yourself every morning at the same time (before the first wees and poos or after but be consistent) and write it down. If the diuretics stop working, weight will increase and often be noticeable enough for hospital admissions to be avoided. They say if weight increase goes above 1kg/day or something per week then call the GP to get the meds reviewed. Look it up though, dunno what the recommendation today is! Also if bad on their feet, you don't want to end up with falling over the scales to read them, so a modicum of judgement is needed

As for the finances, they come last in my post, and for me, don't matter one bit. Family trump all things financial to me; we only have them while we have them so I would personally just get it done as soon as possible and stuff the consequences. I would say she's lucky to have someone who truly gives a sh1t!

OK Back to the topic. My guess is Cornwall will tank more than Sussex because of local salaries.

All the best

TFH

Legal disclaimer as above.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Tin Foil Hat

[Methinkshe]

A chest x ray would show objects left in, and pains which take a long time to settle are common. The pain should be controllable to a degree though, downside is zonking people out with pills. Look up atrial fib. and learn to recognise it (irregular pulse which has no 'regularity' to it - an irregularly irregular pulse). As far as it goes atrial fib needs anticoagulation forever as the blood pools somewhat in the heart as it's not getting squeezed quite in the right way and puts you at risk of clot formation which can lead to stroke, DVT, heart attacks etc. As the warfarin level stabilises it does get easier to control the doses and it does it's job pretty well.

With heart failure, unless confirmed not to be in heart failure anymore, then it's important to keep an eye on weight. If possible, the optimum is to weigh yourself every morning at the same time (before the first wees and poos or after but be consistent) and write it down. If the diuretics stop working, weight will increase and often be noticeable enough for hospital admissions to be avoided. They say if weight increase goes above 1kg/day or something per week then call the GP to get the meds reviewed. Look it up though, dunno what the recommendation today is! Also if bad on their feet, you don't want to end up with falling over the scales to read them, so a modicum of judgement is needed

As for the finances, they come last in my post, and for me, don't matter one bit. Family trump all things financial to me; we only have them while we have them so I would personally just get it done as soon as possible and stuff the consequences. I would say she's lucky to have someone who truly gives a sh1t!

All the best

TFH

Legal disclaimer as above.

Thanks again. We've pretty much done all the rounds with the G.Ps but necessity required that Mater move back with me to convalesce because I had already spent too long away from my own family for their good. Chest X-=rays have been done since CABG but to look for ceongestive heart failure (fluid on the lungs) and not for any misplaced wiring! I know from previous expreience that those who look at chest X-rays can be very single-minded so perhaps a re-examination of those already done could reveal a problem with sternum wiring. Having said that, I've already gone through the morning when Mother woke up so congested that she thought she would die yet refusing to go back to hospital. Just wanted to die with family around her. Fortunately GP arrived quickly and put her back on diuretics which was all that was needed.

Part-ex sounds like an interesting possibiltiy- may be worth a try. Thanks for the tip. All one wants to do for a much loved mother is to give comfort and care and security in old age in part return for the massive care and love one has received as a daughter and that has also been given to grandchildren - without any thought of recompense. I would do anything to get the best for my mother.....she really IS the best. I still cannot believe that during the course of her hospital stays she recieved well over 100 get well cards - I'm not the only one who adores her!

Thanks for the advice. Especially since have just spoken on phone to brother who thinks Norwich Union loss of £3000 is just a blip and my suggestion to sell and cut losses while still possible is stark raving loony! I guess I'll just end up having to say: I told you so.....