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Chaos Just Broken Out Over Immigration Data


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Here you are missing the point...

I have never said that there aren't people paid less than minimum wage, of course there are (not many though). What I have said is that it's illegal and we should not count them.

If we start counting illegal things too we should then start looking at "wages" of drug dealers, kidnappers etc.. Ok, I am kidding, but you see the point. The companies paying less than minimum wage are giving wages against the law.

The fact that you do not care about average wages is bad, if you keep looking at individual cases only you'll never get a full picture. The average case helps (but in itself is not sufficient of course). Also the fact that immigrants are paying more tax that natives means that they are not a cost to society.

I still think that, instead of blaming immigrants for our low wages, we should stop moaning and start looking for better jobs.

The point you are missing is that immigrants supress wages across the board pushing more people towards the minimum wage. Large numbers of illegal immigrants and legal immigrants work for below minimum wage because they don't know about the minimum wage and if they make a fuss they get sacked.

In a recent case near me the entire cleaning staff of a hotel were sacked and replaced with foreign agency staff paid below min wage. Do those replaced not count bcause their replacements were accepting illegal payments?

Immigrants don't pay more tax than the services they use. If that was true taxes would be falling. Instead we have local governments demanding more money for overburdened services.

The economic arguements for mass immigration have been roundly debunked. At best the average family gains about a Mars Bar a month - set that off against crowding, terrorism, infectious disease etc and it seems a pi$$ poor deal.

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Its a real joke - I live in NI and its turned a horrible place to live, a few people work hard to make their living and the rest (civil servants and spongers) look down their noses at us poor fools the slaves that pay their obnoxiously high salaries.

Brown is a socialist parasite.

This will make me even less popular but my wife is a Civil Servant and she works for the Inland Revenue. She is an office manager and I earned more money than her when I was a van driver.

She comes home totally stressed out and I don't doubt her when she says she hates the job and it's bloody hard work. She admits that it used to be a lot easier over 10 years ago but that has all changed now. They have had redundancies and sackings recently and the staff levels are dropping, not going up as so many like to think.

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:o

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle2801894.ece

November 4, 2007

Wrong again, minister: the tally is 8 in 10 jobs go to migrants

MORE than 80% of the jobs created in the past 10 years have gone to foreigners � many more than the government admitted last week � according to statistics presented by the Treasury to parliament.

They also show that in the past five years the number of foreigners in work in Britain has risen by nearly 1m, while employment among the UK-born population has dropped by almost 500,000.

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Economic migration is a layered cake. You have scum of the earth, outcasts, honest and decent people and top shots all in there just like in native British workforce. You can't just go ahead, apply the average on everything and then expect to draw a future prediction based on that average because each layer has different past, present and future.

I am myself a long term non-EU economic migrant here but my reason for sitting tight at the moment is not that the UK is the only great free-for-all country of plenty. The reason is that the property market back home is f*cked up to even greater extent than it is here.

While benefits might be available for non-EU migrants, am sure very few will be eligible for the state pension of any kind if they settle here (I believe so but I am not 100% sure as I am not going to use either.) So, in a sense, economic migration delays the pension crisis. It's going to go off anyway but better later than sooner.

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Economic migration is a layered cake. You have scum of the earth, outcasts, honest and decent people and top shots all in there just like in native British workforce. You can't just go ahead, apply the average on everything and then expect to draw a future prediction based on that average because each layer has different past, present and future.

I am myself a long term non-EU economic migrant here but my reason for sitting tight at the moment is not that the UK is the only great free-for-all country of plenty. The reason is that the property market back home is f*cked up to even greater extent than it is here.

While benefits might be available for non-EU migrants, am sure very few will be eligible for the state pension of any kind if they settle here (I believe so but I am not 100% sure as I am not going to use either.) So, in a sense, economic migration delays the pension crisis. It's going to go off anyway but better later than sooner.

By retirement age most will be eligible for British citizenship (even if they came illegally!!!).

AFAIK they will be eligible for a pension (do they get an NI top up from their pre-UK time?). If not they'll get income support, housing benefit etc.

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By retirement age most will be eligible for British citizenship (even if they came illegally!!!).

Citizenship itself does not bring ANY benefits apart from the right to vote and the necessity to sit on jury if called. They only attraction to me is that it allows you to vote anti-labour. Worth every penny.

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Citizenship itself does not bring ANY benefits apart from the right to vote and the necessity to sit on jury if called. They only attraction to me is that it allows you to vote anti-labour. Worth every penny.

Commonwealth peeps can ALREADY vote. EU Peeps can vote in local elections.

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Economic migration is a layered cake. You have scum of the earth, outcasts, honest and decent people and top shots all in there just like in native British workforce.

In order to emigrate to Canada I had to:

1. Wait in a queue for three years.

2. Prove I could speak the language well.

3. Prove I had useful qualifications.

4. Prove I had useful work experience.

5. Prove I had no serious health problems or infectious diseases.

6. Prove I had enough money to support myself for at least a year.

7. Prove I had no criminal record.

8. Pass a background check by the Canadian equivalent of MI5.

Now I'm here, I don't get welfare (beyond basic healthcare, but since I passed the medical I'm unlikely to need it) and I can be kicked out if I commit a serious crime.

Why shouldn't Britain be the same? Why should it have an open door to 'outcasts' and the 'scum of the Earth' when it could restrict immigration to 'honest and decent people'? Does Britain really need to ship in cleaners and fast food workers from thousands of miles away?

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Your actual chav, if a single person would most definitly want to work, for a benefit of £59 per week for the first 6 months its actualy harder work being on the dole than working, (I did it last year, and still sign on for NI contributions only benefit, with the same aggravating processes) after that you get a reduced benefit or nothing if your partner works or you have savings over a low minimum limit. Most of the people I speak to at the Job center, the punters that is who are waiting around, are keen or desperate to work, many say employers wont take them on for several reasons, eg been unemployed too long (automaticaly bad), not expericenced enough (even for McJobs) Too old/young. The problem is this, the government has listened too closely to poverty pleading of the likes of the CBI and other right wing organisations who would advocate slavery if they didnt have to pay for housing and food (more than the wages they currently pay at the bottom) and as a result have lead us into the situation we are now in. If private enterprise had to operate in the real market (that they rant and rave about) then they would have had to have put up wages in many jobs to a realistic level, these buinesses are not poor and are paying their execs far more money than they deserve, bonuses are derived from cutting the workforce to the bone, rarely from better or increased buisness.

The other issue with being on the dole is training, the government is guilty on this one, for all the bullsh*t they talk re training, there is virtualy no training worth having via the job centre, some building courses apparently but few get jobs from this on account of not being experienced or Polish, the IT courses are at nitwit level, ('This is a mouse, this is a keyboard etc)and little avaliable at colleges, long winded courses with wishy washy qualifications in nail varnishing or equaly pathetic endevours. Cut the immgrants to the bone, increase training, and make employers take up their responsibility with wages and training (something else they have abandoned) wont happen of course, as with cheap credit , cheap employment is like opium to the avereage employer now.

NI contributions only benefit, thats why its important to sign asap after each contract etc.. you also speak about training and i agree its so poor, the govenment could do a lot more in that department. Example new deal is such a was of time its not worth the time and money, yet its a political front for the government to use.

This government talks about education yet the funding for over 21 has decreased over the past years, some colleges have had too cut back on over 21 education on top of that the prices are rising dramatically.

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In order to emigrate to Canada I had to:

1. Wait in a queue for three years.

2. Prove I could speak the language well.

3. Prove I had useful qualifications.

4. Prove I had useful work experience.

5. Prove I had no serious health problems or infectious diseases.

6. Prove I had enough money to support myself for at least a year.

7. Prove I had no criminal record.

8. Pass a background check by the Canadian equivalent of MI5.

Now I'm here, I don't get welfare (beyond basic healthcare, but since I passed the medical I'm unlikely to need it) and I can be kicked out if I commit a serious crime.

Why shouldn't Britain be the same? Why should it have an open door to 'outcasts' and the 'scum of the Earth' when it could restrict immigration to 'honest and decent people'? Does Britain really need to ship in cleaners and fast food workers from thousands of miles away?

Couldn't agree more. I had to go through all of the above just to get a one year work permit! So I don't see what good having the queen on the banknotes does Brits! The UK immigration policy should reflect the policies of the applying Nationality. e.g..... if you're from the UAE, you can't immigrate, but we will tolerate you for three years at a time, you don't get any benefits, and you absolutely will abide by our laws and customs or you're out. Christmas offends you? Then go somewhere that isn't Christian.... we have no wish to offend.

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Couldn't agree more. I had to go through all of the above just to get a one year work permit! So I don't see what good having the queen on the banknotes does Brits! The UK immigration policy should reflect the policies of the applying Nationality. e.g..... if you're from the UAE, you can't immigrate, but we will tolerate you for three years at a time, you don't get any benefits, and you absolutely will abide by our laws and customs or you're out. Christmas offends you? Then go somewhere that isn't Christian.... we have no wish to offend.

all too true

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take this example;

10 english workers pay 50/week tax.

1 chelsea chairman pays 500 tax, 9 immigrants pay 1 tax.

the average would be higher for immigrants.

that's why i dont care much for averages. they don't mean much without any data.

Ok, first of all it still makes sense because here we are talking about immigration in general and not only about the immigration of people earning minimum wage. Many immigrants I know are doctors, pharmacists, software engineers and they earn much mor than minimum wage. Of course then many are on minimum wage, this is of course true, but you have to look at immigration as a whole and so the average meakes sense.

For the example above, it would help to have mean, median mode averages instead of just the mean average (let's say median and mode of salaries rounded to the nearest 1k).

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The point you are missing is that immigrants supress wages across the board pushing more people towards the minimum wage. Large numbers of illegal immigrants and legal immigrants work for below minimum wage because they don't know about the minimum wage and if they make a fuss they get sacked.

In a recent case near me the entire cleaning staff of a hotel were sacked and replaced with foreign agency staff paid below min wage. Do those replaced not count bcause their replacements were accepting illegal payments?

Immigrants don't pay more tax than the services they use. If that was true taxes would be falling. Instead we have local governments demanding more money for overburdened services.

Do not put illegal immigration into the equation. I am totally against illegal immigration, this is bringing both crime and less importantly might aslo be suppressing wage inflation. Illegal immigration should be stopped. Fulll stop.

As for legal immigration I am not too convinced it's bad and I am not too convinced is necessarily suppressing wage inflation.

I am surprised a hotel did that. Why didn't you report the hotel to the authorities? I still think they do not count. It's an illegal pay. If I have 10 slaves and I pay them 0 pounds, would you count that? Or would you simply say I am a criminal... In my opinion there is a minimum wage and it should be respected. Employers who pay less than that have an invalid contract and as such it should not be counted and instead the employer should be immediately forced to pay more (then you can immediately count it again).

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Tommy

As for legal immigration I am not too convinced it's bad and I am not too convinced is necessarily suppressing wage inflation.

How many times do you have to be provided with the stats and ignore it?

How many times do members of the BOE have to sing the praises of migrant labour bringing down wage infation for you to to wake up to the reality of the situation?

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How many times do you have to be provided with the stats and ignore it?

How many times do members of the BOE have to sing the praises of migrant labour bringing down wage infation for you to to wake up to the reality of the situation?

I still have to find stats which are really indicating that. Many stats are inconclusive.

Remember that if you have wage inflation, in most cases it's then followed by price inflation and you're back to square one... This is on most books on economics.

So, if you're talking about this kind of wage inflation, I am also praising immigration for keeping it under control.

If instead, like me, by beneficial wage inflation you mean that the economic conditions are better and they allow for wages to increase faster without making price inflation also increae faster (cost of living) then I am not convinced immigration is preventing this from happening. Immigration is making the underlying economic conditions better, without immigration you could not, at this point in time, have beneficial wage inflation.

As for the useless wage inflation immediately followed by price inflation, yeah, maybe immigration is preventing this because it's strengthening the economy and it's preventing a silly increase in wages for jobs that nobody wants to do (and a silly increase for those jobs would cause more harm than anything else).

Now, I also believe that things that are not under control can turn bad... So I am totally against illegal immigration and also I am for more controlled legal immigration. I think the UK has issues now and they should be solved. I do not think we can continue this way, something should be done. But in principle I am not against immigration and I think it's causing more good than bad (again, legal immigration...).

Edited by Tommy
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Their purpose is to provide skills and labour that the UK needs. For examples foreign doctors are important, not to drive down wages (which are high anyway), but to simply have enough doctors!

Ok, so all immigrants are on minimum wages, with 3 kids and wife not working, right?

How much tax is paid by a British family, both unemployed and claiming benefits, with 3 children? Frankly I do not see the difference. The only difference I see that most immigrants come here to work hard.

As far as prisons are concerned... I frankly believe even British criminals are a cost, not just immigrants... Think about it: you commit a murder, to thank you we give you free accomodation, free food, free tv license etc... I think people in jail should work hard (if healthy) and contribute to society, but this is off topic. What I want to say is that it's not a problem with immigration per se, but with the prisons and the justice system.

Plus, I hope you'll agree with me... most immigrants come here to work and do not commit crimes (legal immigrants of course, I am against illegal immigration!).

We dont need Doctors, we are turning our own away. The Government have intentionally flooded the NHS in the mistaken hope of thinking everyone will need the NHS one day, and if they are treated by an immigrant they will warm to the idea.

We are not training our own in medical school, and that is an intentional policy by a Government hell bent on social engineering.

I am not against immigration, however I am against immigration that is forced on the population in the manner it is forced on us today. We are a small island off the coast of a massive empty continent, it is complete and utter madness that we would even think of packing them all in the UK.

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Tommy,

OK a specific example, ask the workers of Gate Gourmet how much their salaries changed after they werre all sacked and replaced in one fell swoop.

I bet many are still earning a big fat round number called zero. Now that is a wage reduction.

...

Here's another with some stats

http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2007/1...on-squeeze.html

*Footnote- As you may recall from last year's blog, the employment rate of the Pakistani community in Slough dropped from around 71% in 2002 to just 53.2% in 2005. They'd largely been displaced by new immigrants.

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We dont need Doctors, we are turning our own away. The Government have intentionally flooded the NHS in the mistaken hope of thinking everyone will need the NHS one day, and if they are treated by an immigrant they will warm to the idea.

We are not training our own in medical school, and that is an intentional policy by a Government hell bent on social engineering.

We have british doctors but many have moved into private pratice as it pays more and the result is the goverment floods the place with immigrants and don't ask to many questions about qualifications gained overseas.

The same is happening in 'IT'

As if proof was needed that immigrants pull wages down.

All wages are pulled down including yours by this policy so the spin gov puts on it is about nastey plumbers making a fortune and over charging you and how these lovely immigrants are helping to fix your leak.

I pay for a first class NHS and not a 3rd world service so they should just pay the going rate to doctors and plumbers before we import a load of politicans to take MP's wages down as if that would ever happen

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Guest AuntJess
In order to emigrate to Canada I had to:

1. Wait in a queue for three years.

2. Prove I could speak the language well.

3. Prove I had useful qualifications.

4. Prove I had useful work experience.

5. Prove I had no serious health problems or infectious diseases.

6. Prove I had enough money to support myself for at least a year.

7. Prove I had no criminal record.

8. Pass a background check by the Canadian equivalent of MI5.

Now I'm here, I don't get welfare (beyond basic healthcare, but since I passed the medical I'm unlikely to need it) and I can be kicked out if I commit a serious crime.

Why shouldn't Britain be the same? Why should it have an open door to 'outcasts' and the 'scum of the Earth' when it could restrict immigration to 'honest and decent people'? Does Britain really need to ship in cleaners and fast food workers from thousands of miles away?

This is the question that everyone I know is asking, and no one is answering. For a government to ignore the people's concerns is foolish - in the extreme. I go along with Jefferson:

The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object."

Sadly the jerks in the UK have lost sight of this. :(

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This is the question that everyone I know is asking, and no one is answering. For a government to ignore the people's concerns is foolish - in the extreme. I go along with Jefferson:

The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object."

Sadly the jerks in the UK have lost sight of this. :(

Look at Dubai, as of last month 400,000 illegal workers were given an amnsty to get out. The population here is only 4Million

1 Million in the UK,, Yerhh Right.....

Put in simply LABOUR has been leading you all up the garden path to do you up the botty....

Hail Comrad Brown,,,

like hell am I coming back to UK anythime soon even though my families lived their since 1066

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Look at Dubai, as of last month 400,000 illegal workers were given an amnsty to get out. The population here is only 4Million

1 Million in the UK,, Yerhh Right.....

Put in simply LABOUR has been leading you all up the garden path to do you up the botty....

Hail Comrad Brown,,,

like hell am I coming back to UK anythime soon even though my families lived their since 1066

I think thats a lot of peoples perceptions, I would love to move back to my home but at this point I am not going to do it until a change comes about that shows me that things have changed for the better. Its a case of the Govt understanding why there is a british brain drain and the brits are leaving the UK, its hardly rocket science to work out is it.

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I think thats a lot of peoples perceptions, I would love to move back to my home but at this point I am not going to do it until a change comes about that shows me that things have changed for the better. Its a case of the Govt understanding why there is a british brain drain and the brits are leaving the UK, its hardly rocket science to work out is it.

I live Dubai, U.A.E...

There is no such thing as national health or dole for any expat

If you don’t work your out………

I don’t like Dubai, But when I tried to move back 6 months ago I realised how bad things had got in the UK...

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering, I am qualified in installation with my 16th Ed.

So I have the needed qualifications and skills that are lacking in the UK.

My eyes have been forced open to how the World in general acts, It isn't a nice place....

The perception of reality that the government is giving in general is a lie............

Only when you stand away from a distance can you view what a mess it is.

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<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...migrants103.xml" target="_blank">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...migrants103.xml</a>
Growing chaos over migrant workers
Last Updated: 3:07am GMT 03/11/2007
Fresh doubts over the Government's immigration figures emerged last night after new statistics showed that
almost one million
people from
outside Europe
have been given the right to work in Britain over the past three years...../
Over the same period
only 406,000 permits were issued to non-Europeans
.
:lol:

Truth comes out in drips and drabs. Gordon has been caught misleading the public. Reisgnation is in order.

Gordon being the obvious choice but I wonder who was actually to blame. Who has been respponsible for immigration over the last 3 years or even more important who has been involved in the decision making.

It might be the fact that the whole government was involved, decisions on this scale are never made by one person. Tony Blair being the head man at the time has made a very convenient exit, perhaps he knew that all this would eventually come out.

Perhaps Tony Blair has made a vey good trap for Gordon Brown.

Maybe an election needs to be called so the public can decide.

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As for the useless wage inflation immediately followed by price inflation, yeah, maybe immigration is preventing this because it's strengthening the economy and it's preventing a silly increase in wages for jobs that nobody wants to do (and a silly increase for those jobs would cause more harm than anything else).

Now, I also believe that things that are not under control can turn bad... So I am totally against illegal immigration and also I am for more controlled legal immigration. I think the UK has issues now and they should be solved. I do not think we can continue this way, something should be done. But in principle I am not against immigration and I think it's causing more good than bad (again, legal immigration...).

Agreed. People in this country want to purchase things at the cheapest price possible which means paying the workers that provide those goods or services the lowest possible wage. At the same time they think they are underpaid because some immigrant has taken a job at a low rate of pay.

Time to trot out some wise old sayings - "You can't have your cake and eat it" "It's all swings and roundabouts" etc, etc.

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