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Chaos Just Broken Out Over Immigration Data


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I've been expecting this.

What's all the noise in the media about?

It's a ramp ahead of the move to issue all non EU immigrants with biometric ID cards (early next year I believe; it was announced a while back).

Get everyone fired up about immigration and they won't mind the thin end of the wedge on ID cards going in.

Once the infrastructure and precedent (non EU nationals) is in place, then EU and UK residients are next.

Counting in the 200,000 non-EU immigrants is a red hearing. They're already subjected to work permits

or points based entry; it's nothing compared to EU immigration, which they're able todo anything about.

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na, 3.5 is well below RPI nowadays.

I can also tell you of cases where people are working for less that minimum wage. just do a google search, you will find many examples.

if you are telling me immigration is not suppressing wage inflation, i don't agree at all.

No, RPI-X and CPI are below 3.5%:

"RPIX inflation – the all items RPI excluding mortgage interest payments – was 2.8 per cent in September, up from 2.7 per cent in August."

RPI might have recently been higher than 3.5, but I would not necessarily use this figure... I think if you get 3.5% per year with current inflation levels you not losing out.

As for jobs paying less than minimum wage (unless it's for people aged 18 to 21) it's illegal and they should be reported.

I am not too sure immigration is suppressing wage inflation, I think it's more complicated than that. In theory yes, it is, in practice without immigration the economy might have been weaker and salaries more stagnant. You do not know.

Also immigrants do not only "steal" wages, but they also spend, create jobs, etc... Immigration should be controlled, whcih is not now, but I believe that if controlled it can be very beneficial to our country.

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A colleague who worked at the college, later told me that their 'quota" for disabled personnel was down.

Ok, this has nothing to do with disabilities or immigration. It's a government incentive... Some companies get incentives for recruiting people with disabilities and/or from ethnic minorities. We could start discussing if this idea is right or wrong, but it would be off topic.

In a normal scenario the best candidate gets the job, if this does not happen for the reason you mentioned, then you might want to discuss if such incentives are right or wrong, but it does not make immigration itself wrong. Right?

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No, RPI-X and CPI are below 3.5%:

"RPIX inflation – the all items RPI excluding mortgage interest payments – was 2.8 per cent in September, up from 2.7 per cent in August."

RPI might have recently been higher than 3.5, but I would not necessarily use this figure... I think if you get 3.5% per year with current inflation levels you not losing out.

As for jobs paying less than minimum wage (unless it's for people aged 18 to 21) it's illegal and they should be reported.

I am not too sure immigration is suppressing wage inflation, I think it's more complicated than that. In theory yes, it is, in practice without immigration the economy might have been weaker and salaries more stagnant. You do not know.

Also immigrants do not only "steal" wages, but they also spend, create jobs, etc... Immigration should be controlled, whcih is not now, but I believe that if controlled it can be very beneficial to our country.

If they are not supressing wages, then what on earth do you think their purpose is ?

How much tax does a man with three children pay on minimum wage pay ? How much is he entitled to on the state to make up the difference ?

How much do they spend if they are on minimum wage and benefits ? Where do they spend this ?

Beneficial in what way, our prisons are full of immigrants and we know how diffficult and how many crimes it takes for someone to secure the luxury of a spell in a UK jail. Mate, getting a place at Harvard is easier these days!!!.

Edited by laurejon
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Do you remember what they used to say about technology? That'd it mean we could all have so much more leisure time and relax and do nothing whilst robots did the work?

Well swap robot for immigrants!

Just how many immigrants would we need to allow us all to do nothing all day long?

The only way to stop the benefits dependency culture is to stop all benefits. For sick, old age, unemployed. Look after yourself.

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Do you remember what they used to say about technology? That'd it mean we could all have so much more leisure time and relax and do nothing whilst robots did the work?

Well swap robot for immigrants!

Just how many immigrants would we need to allow us all to do nothing all day long?

The only way to stop the benefits dependency culture is to stop all benefits. For sick, old age, unemployed. Look after yourself.

You must have attended the same school as myself !!!!

I now work a 90hr week, and I work in IT, WTF happened ?

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You must have attended the same school as myself !!!!

I now work a 90hr week, and I work in IT, WTF happened ?

I will try to tell you. Since the 50's our quality of life has plummetted. You used to be able to buy a gaff on one person's salary. Now two working can't afford a place to live. We work longer hours for less--unless you count electronic tat as life improving. In Britain today everything costs more than it does anywhere else in the world and NuLabour have just completed a decade of the largest scam ever foisted on a population anywhere: a pyramid scheme that has indebted the people beyond their or their children's ability to repay. Something always gives and it will be quality of life. More work for less.

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No, RPI-X and CPI are below 3.5%:

"RPIX inflation – the all items RPI excluding mortgage interest payments – was 2.8 per cent in September, up from 2.7 per cent in August."

RPI might have recently been higher than 3.5, but I would not necessarily use this figure... I think if you get 3.5% per year with current inflation levels you not losing out.

As for jobs paying less than minimum wage (unless it's for people aged 18 to 21) it's illegal and they should be reported.

I am not too sure immigration is suppressing wage inflation, I think it's more complicated than that. In theory yes, it is, in practice without immigration the economy might have been weaker and salaries more stagnant. You do not know.

Also immigrants do not only "steal" wages, but they also spend, create jobs, etc... Immigration should be controlled, whcih is not now, but I believe that if controlled it can be very beneficial to our country.

I would use RPI and not the misleading RPIX and CPI. you are losing out if your living costs are rising more than 3.5%. I know of many people whose living costs are rising more than 3.5%. They are losing out.

I dont care if it is illegal to pay less than minimum wage. people are working for less than minimum wage now and have been for the past few years. like i said google it, I have met people currently working for less than minimum wage.

I am sure immigration is suppressing wage inflation, I see it in action. I don't think it is particularly complicated, immigrants are employed infront of natives in unskilled work. because they are paid less, it is more profitable for the company employing them.

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I for one believe that if a bad recession does occur, any one who is not a british citizen and on benefits should be asked to return to their own country. Secondly at that point, the UK govt should also then enforce that british citizens must get preferential treatment in hiring in the UK, which means if they can do the job, they should be hired over all foreigners. Other EU countries are getting protectionist, I dont see why the Uk shouldnt do the same.

As regards benefits, a thought i had is that if you are non brit and not been working here, then you should not be able to claim benefits full stop and requested to leave as one of the EU rules clearly states, you can freely travel but if you cannot support yourself that country has a right to remove you, Ireland removed the Roma gyspies from Dublin using this. If they have been working, you should get benefit for a period of 2 months maximum after they have signed a contract stating that if do not find work within 2 months they must return to their home country to start again, after all you should be saving for when things like this happen. I did and am proud to have never claimed benefit.

I live out in Turkey at present and these guys have it spot on right. You have to pay £200 a year to live here with a permit for one year. You have to provide bank statements every year to show you have enough money to support yourself. You must report to the mayors office and present yourself witihn 14 days of expiration (no exceptions, i forgot once and the cops turned up 7 days after at my door asking me renew immediately or they would be back) for approval then the customs police for interview. Furthermore after 5 years if you want to get a turkish passport you must pass a language proficiency test here. You cannot take a job here unless approved from Ankara and they are satisfied no Turk can do the job themselves. They really dont take shit. If they stop you and you dont have the correct paperwork or have a residence permit. You are gone within a day and if you are found working illegally, you are on a plane within a few hours, next plane out. Another thing, here, you dont work, you dont eat, no such thing as benefits and these guys majority earn 20 lira a day (£8).

You guys should stop believing everything you read in the Daily Mail. I allready posted on this in another thread. All of the above applies to me in as a foreign worker in this country. I cannot claim benefits AND have to contribute to your benefit system. The Uk has benefited as much as it can from foreign workers. Is it right to then want to boot us all out as soon as it looks like the economy will turn down?

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Guest AuntJess
Ok, this has nothing to do with disabilities or immigration. It's a government incentive... Some companies get incentives for recruiting people with disabilities and/or from ethnic minorities. We could start discussing if this idea is right or wrong, but it would be off topic.

In a normal scenario the best candidate gets the job, if this does not happen for the reason you mentioned, then you might want to discuss if such incentives are right or wrong, but it does not make immigration itself wrong. Right?

Right! But as my old Aunty used to say " all things in moderation" Immigration in the UK is not moderate, nor managed. It is a hotch potch of mismanagement and hidden agendas.

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If they are not supressing wages, then what on earth do you think their purpose is ?

Their purpose is to provide skills and labour that the UK needs. For examples foreign doctors are important, not to drive down wages (which are high anyway), but to simply have enough doctors!

How much tax does a man with three children pay on minimum wage pay ? How much is he entitled to on the state to make up the difference ?

How much do they spend if they are on minimum wage and benefits ? Where do they spend this ?

Beneficial in what way, our prisons are full of immigrants and we know how diffficult and how many crimes it takes for someone to secure the luxury of a spell in a UK jail. Mate, getting a place at Harvard is easier these days!!!.

Ok, so all immigrants are on minimum wages, with 3 kids and wife not working, right?

How much tax is paid by a British family, both unemployed and claiming benefits, with 3 children? Frankly I do not see the difference. The only difference I see that most immigrants come here to work hard.

As far as prisons are concerned... I frankly believe even British criminals are a cost, not just immigrants... Think about it: you commit a murder, to thank you we give you free accomodation, free food, free tv license etc... I think people in jail should work hard (if healthy) and contribute to society, but this is off topic. What I want to say is that it's not a problem with immigration per se, but with the prisons and the justice system.

Plus, I hope you'll agree with me... most immigrants come here to work and do not commit crimes (legal immigrants of course, I am against illegal immigration!).

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We sub-scontract a large number of Indians (onshore and offshore) in our UK office from Indian outsourcing companies. We have been doing this for a number of years now (5 years). Their employers are responsible for securing their work permits/visas etc.

Over the last 2 years a common trend has started where the employees leave their Indian companies and then work directly for UK ones. We have actualy directly employed some of the sub-contractors. Many now have residency and are eligible to become UK citizens.

These (now UK citizens) are very hard working, capable and are net contributors of tax. Whilst I am delighted for them personally and see how businesses benefit from the deflationary wage effect they have.....I can't help but think the opportunities for new UK grads in this industry are now very limited.

Whilst I have enjoyed some 15 years post graduation of high earnings to pay for the cost of my education, new grads are looking at very muted earnings.

Heh. Funny.

In 1993 I went to the USA as an IT contractor.

Exactly the same scenario: subcontracted then after a few years (typically 5) those of us who gave a rats ass were given a green card and more often than not ended up with the "customer" IT group. Of the 5 of us who were pals, here's what happened.

2 bought totally into US lifestyle, married americans, live there still now all happy with 2.2 kids, SUV etc.

2 came back to UK after 3 years, married brits, stayed in UK to have kids. - one now planning move to Canada

1 married american, came back to UK to have kids, now returning to USA

So its a bit of a mixed picture as to what happens to these incoming workers. I can imagine an Indian guy doing a few lucrative years here and longing for a return to India - depending on his situation. What I will say is that unless you are a naturalised US citizen you get _nothing_ in the way of state help or benefits from Uncle Sam. The issue in the UK seems to be that handouts are allegedly rather more generous .

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I would use RPI and not the misleading RPIX and CPI. you are losing out if your living costs are rising more than 3.5%. I know of many people whose living costs are rising more than 3.5%. They are losing out.

On the contrary, I think RPI is misleading, but here we go... Why would you want to put interest rates on mortgages into the equation when:

- if you rent you do not pay them

- if you paid off your mortgage you do not pay them

- if you are "poverty" and live in a council house you do not pay them (this is what we were talking about right?!)

- inflation is the general trend of prices increasing over time. If anything you should put house prices in the equation, but not the payments of the interests of the mortgages.

But I do not expect you to agree with me and I see your point, especially for people who stretched themselves and most of their salary goes into a mortgage, they have experienced a sharp increase in the cost of living, true. This is not really inflation though, in my opinion, if tomorrow, the BOE reduced IRs to 3% they would be in a very good position... IRs can go up and down... Inflation usually only goes up...

I dont care if it is illegal to pay less than minimum wage. people are working for less than minimum wage now and have been for the past few years. like i said google it, I have met people currently working for less than minimum wage.

I think you should care. I know there are jobs like that, but the employers should be sued.

I am sure immigration is suppressing wage inflation, I see it in action. I don't think it is particularly complicated, immigrants are employed infront of natives in unskilled work. because they are paid less, it is more profitable for the company employing them.

No, the average salary of immigrants is higher than the average salary of natives. You have the common misconception that immigrants are all unskilled and all going for lower paid jobs:

"Immigrants on average earn more money - and pay more taxes - than British-born workers. Migrant wage levels were on average £424 a week compared with £395 for UK-born workers, a difference of £29."

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On the contrary, I think RPI is misleading, but here we go... Why would you want to put interest rates on mortgages into the equation when:

- if you rent you do not pay them

- if you paid off your mortgage you do not pay them

- if you are "poverty" and live in a council house you do not pay them (this is what we were talking about right?!)

- inflation is the general trend of prices increasing over time. If anything you should put house prices in the equation, but not the payments of the interests of the mortgages.

But I do not expect you to agree with me and I see your point, especially for people who stretched themselves and most of their salary goes into a mortgage, they have experienced a sharp increase in the cost of living, true. This is not really inflation though, in my opinion, if tomorrow, the BOE reduced IRs to 3% they would be in a very good position... IRs can go up and down... Inflation usually only goes up...

I think you should care. I know there are jobs like that, but the employers should be sued.

No, the average salary of immigrants is higher than the average salary of natives. You have the common misconception that immigrants are all unskilled and all going for lower paid jobs:

"Immigrants on average earn more money - and pay more taxes - than British-born workers. Migrant wage levels were on average £424 a week compared with £395 for UK-born workers, a difference of £29."

here we go... I would want to include mortgage interest payments in the equation because;

- If you have a mortgage you pay them

- If you haven't paid off your mortgage you pay them

- If you are in poverty and have a mortgage and don't live in a council house you pay them (this is what we are talking about right?!)

I don't use many things, women's products, children's products and many other things should we take those out?

I do care about people being paid less than minimum wage. What I dont care about is you thinking that because there is a legal minimum that everybody is paid above it. They aren't.

I don't care about average wages and taxes paid. That has nothing to do with the fact that immigration suppresses wage inflation.

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What I dont care about is you thinking that because there is a legal minimum that everybody is paid above it. They aren't.

I don't care about average wages and taxes paid.

Here you are missing the point...

I have never said that there aren't people paid less than minimum wage, of course there are (not many though). What I have said is that it's illegal and we should not count them.

If we start counting illegal things too we should then start looking at "wages" of drug dealers, kidnappers etc.. Ok, I am kidding, but you see the point. The companies paying less than minimum wage are giving wages against the law.

The fact that you do not care about average wages is bad, if you keep looking at individual cases only you'll never get a full picture. The average case helps (but in itself is not sufficient of course). Also the fact that immigrants are paying more tax that natives means that they are not a cost to society.

I still think that, instead of blaming immigrants for our low wages, we should stop moaning and start looking for better jobs.

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I don't think i am missing the point. People working for less than min wage are suppressing wage inflation, read that bbc story . They are employed to make more profit for the employers. nobody has any clue how many there are working like that.

I don't know where you got your average statement from, but take this example;

10 english workers pay 50/week tax.

1 chelsea chairman pays 500 tax, 9 immigrants pay 1 tax.

the average would be higher for immigrants.

that's why i dont care much for averages. they don't mean much without any data.

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You guys should stop believing everything you read in the Daily Mail. I allready posted on this in another thread. All of the above applies to me in as a foreign worker in this country. I cannot claim benefits AND have to contribute to your benefit system. The Uk has benefited as much as it can from foreign workers. Is it right to then want to boot us all out as soon as it looks like the economy will turn down?

Yes absolutely. Britain for the British.

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Yes absolutely. Britain for the British.

I don't think its unfair to expect in the case of a serious economic downturn that the British population is put first. Its simply a case of look after yourself before you look after others. I guarantee you that in the case of econopmic downturn in any country, they also will put their population first except Britain which seems to be like Battersea dogs home these days and takes in any waifs and strays.

I am certainly not racist, I am married to an indian, my best friends are all from many different countries but i assure you, legitimate long term migrants to this country and are full british citizens are sick to the teeth of whats been happening over the last 10 years. When you have an open door policy with no restriction it seems, you are asking for a mess. Theres an old expression, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail". enough said.

New Labour and the EU have opened a pandora's box with uncontrolled immigration. Someone needs to slam it shut and I also agree that the British population has a lot to answer for in its laziness sometimes but seriously someone needs to get a serious grip on the situation and realise it has to stop somewhere before it gets nasty, and by i don't mean a bit of bitchslapping, i mean serious trouble on a scale of riots like Brixton and Leeds, which i don't even want to think about.

Personally I am in favour of freedom to travel but if you want to come and live in another EU country, I would like to see people still have to apply for a residence visa and permit and actually prove you can support yourself in that country for that duration of stay before they come. It would be better If they intend to work that they must have a residency permit and no employer could hire you without it. If they did this, there sure as hell would not be the problems we face today.

Here in Turkey, having a residence permit is a key to everything. I cannot buy a car, get insurance, get satellite television, get a telephone line, broadband, electric or the like without a residence permit. It makes me realise that if Turkey which is way behind on the West, can do this, why the hell can't a forward thinking country like the Uk not, its baffling.

Visa permits would rake a shitload in for the treasury and then we could maybe keep track of who exactly is in the country. The police know where everyone is here. Personally I am also in favour of cutting benefits out completely from anyone except people over 50, the seriously ill or disabled. If you don't work, you live your family or you get work. Young people have to get the message, there is no free ride. The country would balance itself out if benefits were removed, BTL dole landlords would be put out of business, dodgy benefit hotels would vanish.

As far as the NHS is concerned, the reduction in cost of a benefit system should be used to fund the nhs. Any foreigner here should not not have access to the health system unless they have are contributing to the NI system, period. Private health insurance should be taken out before they come, and dont give me any of that bull of reciprocal arrangements, I've seen some of the reciprocal arrangements used in other EU countries and by christ you do get a large bill in some of them. Dont be fooled by the EU, it varies from country to country in the eu, they protect themselves very very well. Lots of country can change the rules to fit themselves, in fact in many of them dont expect help at all. Poland will deport you if you get really ill. So you see the imbalance is everywhere.

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Guest AuntJess
I don't think its unfair to expect in the case of a serious economic downturn that the British population is put first. Its simply a case of look after yourself before you look after others. I guarantee you that in the case of economic downturn in any country, they also will put their population first except Britain which seems to be like Battersea dogs home these days and takes in any waifs and strays.

I am certainly not racist, I am married to an indian, my best friends are all from many different countries but i assure you, legitimate long term migrants to this country and are full british citizens are sick to the teeth of whats been happening over the last 10 years. When you have an open door policy with no restriction it seems, you are asking for a mess. Theres an old expression, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail". enough said.

<snip>

Sound Post. I have made similar observations and agree with what you say in your full post.

Edited by AuntJess
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I doubt many immigrants will leave if they have become eligible for benefits when the downturn comes. We already have a massive imbalance where you can be better off sitting on your backside and get social housing (assuming you have kids). What this means in a recession is a massive liability to the taxpayer, and social unrest.

Well done NuLab - your social experiment of mass immigration is about to blow up. We are in no shape to cope with a recession. Massively in debt, too much reliance on financial services, Mac jobs and retail. Too big a public sector, too much borrowing. When the downturn comes, it will be much worse than the last recession. The very last thing we need are millions of immigrants.

A friend who works in a town in the South East with a large Polish immigrant population has been telling me how 5 Polish women, all in the 20s & 30s, had already approached him the in the last 3 months looking to claim long term sickness benefits..

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I was reading a report that the central bureau of statistics in Polans states a worker makes abour 2500 PLN a month about £428. However i know thats crap, on average they make about 1000 pln, about £180 from polish people i know and the romanian minimum, i wont even tell you the joke that is.

so you see, even on benefits, people can make more just being here on benefits, not much of an incentive to work is it. Kill the benefit system and i mean that for the uk population too. They need a wake up call too.

Edited by sunonmars
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The recession is certainly coming soon. In an economic downturn immigrants are always the first to get attacked. I lived most of my young life as a foreigner in other peoples countries. It was not easy and there were no newspaper headlines complaining about Brits stealing all the top jobs to make it worse.

The papers are full of this at the moment. Today's Independant had a headline about the Italians deporting loads of migrant workers.

I think it reflects badly on us all that we think it is OK to blame these people for shortcomings in our own economy. The skivers amongst them are few and far between. The problem, if there is one, is that they work harder than us.

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Absolutely,

The majority of the money in this country is achieved by financial services in London. Scotland & Wales - 60% state employment, NI - 70%. As we already know, the "city" is in for quite a downturn.

While importing cheap labour is in some ways a smart move to maintain temporary competitiveness, it is not a viable long term solution. 1,000,000 non-EU, FFS!

Do we not have enough people on the scrapheap, with no education or training? As a country, how can we afford to keep this growing underclass fed and clothed, while still importing more and more to do the lowpaid jobs???

Its a real joke - I live in NI and its turned a horrible place to live, a few people work hard to make their living and the rest (civil servants and spongers) look down their noses at us poor fools the slaves that pay their obnoxiously high salaries.

Brown is a socialist parasite.

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