Bearfacts Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Speaking as someone who lives within their zone of influence .. can I just say alle ... frikin... lujah. I am so glad they are selling up. Lets face it with 900 properties they arent exactly going to be drip feeding them onto the market are they. If they try and unload them in 2009 then they will have to move 75 a month, that is going to make a big difference. I sincerely hope they get their fingers burnt but expect they will get away with 10s of millions in their bank accounts still. Some pay off for screwing over the inhabitants of an entire town and surrounds. I just hope they can live with it on their consciences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavp Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Listen guys, they might be greedy and venal, but they're not so stupid that they're going to stick dozens of houses at a time on the open market and crash local prices. Basically, their way out is to find a few 'greater fools' who're each prepared to buy a chucnk of their 'portfolio' as a job lot. I'm sceptical they'll achieve this, for the simple reason that they only people who will have access to enough funds are the smart investors who got out at the top and they will expect the Wilsons to a take a serious haircut on any sale, something that they can't afford to do given their already low equity stake in the houses. The interesting question will be what will the banks do when they end up having to repossess hundreds of properties in the same town. Again, I doubt they'll be silly enough to flood the market, so a lot of people could end up with a bank for a landlord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philgo Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 so a lot of people could end up with a bank for a landlord. People might get some repairs done then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChumpusRex Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Property Co? the Wilsons ARE a property Co! A property co with a viable business model. Buy low, let out affordably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philgo Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 They have loads of empty houses in Ashford, the 2 beds that I know were going for £700 pm at the begining of the year then last month they dropped to £650 now they are £625. Might be doing BOGOF soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Trinity Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) They saw a gap in the market and went for it. You people eat off the back of a free market and when someone is far better at it than you, you get all communist.. Thanks Richard. It's very easy to spot ignorant generalisations when they start with "You people", as if you know the first thing about someone from one out-of-context post. For what it's worth, I didn't "get all communist"; actually I was already a socialist well before any of this kicked off and will continue to be. And as such I certainly am not jealous of a morally- and intellectually-bankrupt person who happens to have money. That you appear to look up to these chancers says more about you than it does about the rest of us you are so quick to condemn. Edited October 5, 2008 by Simon_Trinity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its time to buy Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 They are defying gravity it seems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 Listen guys, they might be greedy and venal, but they're not so stupid .....the question is if they had been street wise instead of numbers people they wouldn't be in the market right now...disposals should have been made long ago ....to late they appear to have been buying when they should have been selling.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Keel Posted October 5, 2008 Share Posted October 5, 2008 They are defying gravity it seems Sorry, just couldn't help but think of this. All Judith Wilson needs is the broomstick, but unfortunately I think she and the wicked witch of the east are going to suffer the same fate...something to do with a crashing house I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mish Mash Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Out of principle I wouldn't buy 1 slum from these parasitic slumlords even if they were selling them hugely discounted. Are they slums then? Full of crims, drunks and women beaters? It would certainly be insane to buy such a dwelling at any price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE BALD MAN Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 .....the question is if they had been street wise instead of numbers people they wouldn't be in the market right now...disposals should have been made long ago ....to late they appear to have been buying when they should have been selling.... If they knew what they were doing they would have bundled the whole lot up in an investment vehicle and got some mug punters to have bought in about 6 months ago. Holding a non diversefied portfolio in a falling illiquid market is not too clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Even Keel Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 If they knew what they were doing they would have bundled the whole lot up in an investment vehicle and got some mug punters to have bought in about 6 months ago. Holding a non diversefied portfolio in a falling illiquid market is not too clever. I believe they may have tried and failed to do that a while back with the Judith Wilson Investment Property Bond, but I don't think that ever really got started. A quick check shows that JWIPB Limited is a non-trading company, so it may just have been a scheme to wrap up their debt and assests in a limited liability company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluke Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I believe they may have tried and failed to do that a while back with the Judith Wilson Investment Property Bond, but I don't think that ever really got started. A quick check shows that JWIPB Limited is a non-trading company, so it may just have been a scheme to wrap up their debt and assests in a limited liability company. Most likely their company will go under, but they will have paid themselves a few million quid that can't be touched, so will still be able to run a few nags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric pebble Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) They have loads of empty houses in Ashford, the 2 beds that I know were going for £700 pm at the begining of the year then last month they dropped to £650 now they are £625. Might be doing BOGOF soon. EXCELLENT!!! Edited October 6, 2008 by eric pebble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffy666 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 If they knew what they were doing they would have bundled the whole lot up in an investment vehicle and got some mug punters to have bought in about 6 months ago. Holding a non diversefied portfolio in a falling illiquid market is not too clever. I think that they actually had offers from overseas to buy the whole lot for £250 million about a year ago. Obviously they turned it down because property doubles in value every 7 years.. Of course, what you need to know is what their cashflow is like. If their interest rate goes from 5% to 7% meaning they go cashflow negative then they could quickly find that they can't sell property quickly enough in a small geographical area to cover their burn rate, let along pay back their borrowing. At that point bankruptcy is inevitable. A canny investor would, of course, buy their property at distressed prices, and instantly turn around and let it out at a discount to the Wilson's prices.. if you had a few million to invest you could keep forcing rents down and poaching their tennants, making their situation worse and forcing more property sales, to repeat the cycle. Free markets and all.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 disposals should have been made long ago ....too late they appear to have been buying when they should have been selling.... Oversized egos, or bad advice? You would have thought that with that many properties they would have had the smartest telling them where it was truly at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE BALD MAN Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I think that they actually had offers from overseas to buy the whole lot for £250 million about a year ago.Obviously they turned it down because property doubles in value every 7 years.. Of course, what you need to know is what their cashflow is like. If their interest rate goes from 5% to 7% meaning they go cashflow negative then they could quickly find that they can't sell property quickly enough in a small geographical area to cover their burn rate, let along pay back their borrowing. At that point bankruptcy is inevitable. A canny investor would, of course, buy their property at distressed prices, and instantly turn around and let it out at a discount to the Wilson's prices.. if you had a few million to invest you could keep forcing rents down and poaching their tennants, making their situation worse and forcing more property sales, to repeat the cycle. Free markets and all.. This is Ashford we are talking about. Is this the area where I realy want to invest even at distressed proces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crashman Begins Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/oct/0...gtolet.property The king and queen of buy-to-let Judith and Fergus Wilson have built an empire of 900 properties, but now they are starting to sell up and telling investors that 'the party's over'. Patrick Collinson finds out why The Guardian, Saturday October 4 2008 In little more than a decade, two former maths teachers at a south London comprehensive climbed the property ladder faster than anyone else in Britain. In a frantic series of deals, sometimes buying several houses a day, Judith and Fergus Wilson used cheap buy-to-let finance to snap up hundreds of homes, mostly around Ashford in Kent. But the couple have bought their last house. The final three, acquired this year, took them past 900. Now, in the week the biggest buy-to-let lender, Bradford & Bingley, bit the dust, they have decided to begin selling. When house prices were soaring and the economy riding a tide of cheap credit, their personal wealth was rising more than £25,000 a day. But now buy-to-let loans are becoming scarcer by the day, interest costs are soaring and tenants are struggling with the rent. Not that the Wilsons are about to be destroyed by the credit crunch. Unlike many amateur landlords who piled into buy-to-let in 2006 and 2007, they bought most of their properties when prices were lower, and still have a comfortable cushion of equity. They focused on two and three-bed houses, not the new-build flats where prices are falling hardest. But servicing buy-to-let loans is becoming tougher, even for the Wilsons. Two-year deals fixed once at 4.5% have in the wake of the credit crunch and B&B's demise, moved towards 7% and lenders want steep deposits. Some, says Fergus, also want fees of up to 5% of the loan, which can take the annual pay rate to 9% when spread over two years. "We are not a penny behind on our loan payments," says Fergus. "We are reasonably safe, I think. If we go under, then everyone's going under." He's not about to dump hundreds of properties and single-handedly create a slump in the Ashford area. The plan is to sell over several years, from Christmas. Like many other buy-to-let investors, he built his portfolio for capital gain rather than rental yield, but sees little chance of such appreciation in the next few years. So rather than wait until long into his retirement, he's taken the decision to start selling. "We are both over 60 now. My view is, 'thanks very much, it's been a nice ride but the party's over'." Will the Wilsons walk away with millions or be left with crumbs from a collapsing market? Fergus is cautious about precise figures, but reckons his properties are worth "around £250m" and that the typical loan-to-value is around 65%. That suggests they have an equity cushion of some £90m - and a mortgage of about £160m. While some householders joke they have a mortgage the size of a small country, in the Wilsons' case it's actually true . The risk for buy-to-let borrowers is not only rising mortgage costs, but tenants failing to pay the rent. "One or two have lost jobs, but our properties benefit from rent guarantees," says Fergus." Figures from Nationwide this week showed house prices tumbling 12.4% annually, but Fergus says "the prices for two and three-bedders around here have not fallen much". Official data shows buy-to-let mortgages have levels of arrears and repossessions no higher than mainstream loans, and in some cases are performing better. But B&B's demise indicates the City is unconvinced and that the sector may blow up. The Wilsons say there are two buy-to-let markets: the more professional buyers such as themselves, who invested early and specialised in houses; and the latecomers who paid fancy prices for flats. "You only have to go over to Maidstone. The ones who purchased flats there - some have never had tenants or rent to cover the bill. A lot are just handing the keys back," says Fergus. He adds many used bogus 15% "discounts" on the offer price to qualify for 85% buy-to-let loans, which were in reality 100% of the real price. The few buy-to-let lenders left - the Mortgage Works joined Bradford & Bingley's Mortgage Express in pulling products this week - want deposits of 25%-plus, or 35% for new-build flats. Critics of buy-to-let say they have no sympathy for the plight of investors who were interested only in using easy finance and tax breaks to make a quick killing, inflating prices and preventing first-time buyers getting on the ladder. Fergus says: "Buy-to-let landlords are not bad people. We are not like sub-prime in the US. Most of the properties that will now be sold will go to first-time buyers. What the government has to do is something about the size of deposits people now need to raise." His advice for property buyers? "Flats will not be worth buying again. There are far too many - that market is finished. What I tell youngsters is, 'rent your first flat, but buy your house'." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 You mean now that's there's not a cat in hells chance of them, being lent another bean. So are they 10% responsible for B&B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpe Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 any predictions for when these guys file for bankruptcy? I (cautiously) say 2 years tops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Hatred Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 To me, this signals the official end of property as an investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankster Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) I suppose they could sell off houses until all their loans are paid off and see what they are left with. Probably still a sizeable portfolio, with no mortgages and a good income from rents. To me, this signals the official end of property as an investment. For the current cycle..... When prices start to rise from the near-bottomless pit that lies ahead, property will be a good investment again. Edited October 6, 2008 by blankster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Long Now Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) any predictions for when these guys file for bankruptcy?I (cautiously) say 2 years tops The speed that this thing is unwinding, I give them 6 months before bankrupcy. He is living in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks he can un-wind his positions and exit the market over 7 years. Edited October 6, 2008 by Notlongnow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/oct/0...gtolet.propertyThe king and queen of buy-to-let Judith and Fergus Wilson have built an empire of 900 properties, but now they are starting to sell up and telling investors that 'the party's over'. Patrick Collinson finds out why The Guardian, Saturday October 4 2008 In little more than a decade, two former maths teachers at a south London comprehensive climbed the property ladder faster than anyone else in Britain. In <snip> They've missed the boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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