Bash The Rich Demonstration

[Fudge]

"charging us to park our cars"?

uh huh. So you need one of those to live, right? basket ball? Basic right. Big telly, 4 holidays.

If HPI had not occurred, then housing would be affordable on minimum wage. As it is its not affordable on more that 2x median wage. That I grant.

But if you are on minimum wage you are paying minimum tax - in fact we are going to be supporting you. Therefore the subsidies are not only irrelevant to your weak argument, but they positively contradict it. How much more of my money would you like?

You are clearly going WAY past the 'enough to live on' level, and are infact talking about not being able to afford the levels of luxuries that you have become accoustomed to and for some reason believe you are entitled to.

As I say, give me a figure of what is enough. All I need is a number, then I can take a side in your diatribe. I'd like to side with you, but I suspect that even though I cant afford a house, or even a reasonable flat, and think that a grand a month to rent a 2 bed flat is a bit bloody steep, I still earn too much to be on your side. Until you give us a qauntitative value, your luxury level will be sufficiently flexible that the 2 doctor family who just have to have a nanny and a cleaner as part of their day to day living requirements as well as a pair of landrovers and after school drama and debating activities with archery and fencing for the oldest, with weekends shooting peasants in the country as a minimum level of living will have as good an argument as yours.

Well I need transport, public transport is not sufficient to get me to work on time, so I need a car, and I need to park it.

Kids go to school, where they have things like swimming lessons, for which they charge now.

Normal telly which we have had for donkeys years, we have one holiday in caravan a year in the UK.

If you insist on a figure I would say a family of four would need an income of 40K per year at the moment just to have a

basic standard of living. 3 bed house rented, old car, food on the table. That is with two adults working full time.

Luxuries to me are a couple of pints of beer and a chinese take away.

[RichB]

Ok thats fair. How much more than this qualifies as bashably rich?

And does a family of 1 working adult at 50k (given the extra taxation etc of a single worker) sit in a similar parity?

[Fudge]

Ok thats fair. How much more than this qualifies as bashably rich?

And does a family of 1 working adult at 50k (given the extra taxation etc of a single worker) sit in a similar parity?

It depends what a person does, if someone says I am an engineer and I earn 70K per year I would think

this guy is a smart cookie and deserves what he gets, if he says I earn 70K per year and am an estate agent or I work

in the City I would think what a ****.

I am not envious of people who have a lot more than me because I am happy with what I got.

In fact in my experiance it is those with a hell of a lot who begrudge those who get very little.

Those living the life of riley who begrudge someone getting the minimum wage or drawing the dole living in a squalid council flat.

[Vespasian]

I don`t want to bash the rich but the typical US & UK CEO earns over 400 times their average employee. In 1980 this figure was 40x. The fat cats are lining their pockets

Here is the proof!

http://www.aflcio.org/corporatewatch/paywatch/pay/

Now if a newly qualified consultant neurosurgeon only earns 80k, thanks to a crap state salary, where is the justice in that

[Guest d23]

We held the march regardless of a great deal of police presence and intimidation.

Do the same thing again on a larger scale and it could be very effective.

And no they didnt look middle class to me.

I was in the area and saw the march.

the police presence seemed wildly out of proportion with the size of the demo and they were doing their best to be as intimidating as possible.

would be interesting to see if the Met would have felt the need to have that kind of presence at a march in a less affluent area.

[RichB]

It depends what a person does, if someone says I am an engineer and I earn 70K per year I would think

this guy is a smart cookie and deserves what he gets, if he says I earn 70K per year and am an estate agent or I work

in the City I would think what a ****.

I am not envious of people who have a lot more than me because I am happy with what I got.

In fact in my experiance it is those with a hell of a lot who begrudge those who get very little.

Those living the life of riley who begrudge someone getting the minimum wage or drawing the dole living in a squalid council flat.

I see, so its not how much you earn its how you earn it that bothers you. As for your last sentence - thats utter tripe, except the sponging bit. But then I expect most 'working' 9cos lets face it, sitting behind a computer screen moving money about is not working, but sitting behind a computer screen moving materials about is) people should feel it even more strongly.

But really - why does it matter how someone gets their money? What do you consider suitable professions?

[South Lorne]

Regardless of anyone's background it is possible for them to succeed, given sufficient determination (this is show by those who are successful whilst coming from incredibly bad backgrounds). To say that most of them don't is not a reason or excuse for the rest. Everyone has one life to live, sadly a large amount spend a lot of time making excuses for their failings rather than finding solutions for their problems. One is easy to do, the other is not. But everyone makes that choice themselves - it is not a product of background, education or any number of other excuses such as my thumb really hurts so I can't work for the next 10 years!

...agreed ...it's the low lifes rich and poor who want everything for nothing...the lefties rich and poor who are the 'whiners' of society ...the lazy sods who want everything for doing nothing....they cry for 'rights' but are not responsible enough to look after a pussy cat....let them see the light one day.....

[The Bachelor of Arts]

Hi Fudge, I'm the guy who mentioned Kabul - you referred to it in an earlier thread.

I wouldn't really say that Western capitalism is what kept Afghanistan backwards. It has always been a proud and tribal country with little want for Western luxuries (wonderful people by the way). As for the landmines that I'm clearing, you may want to speak to a few fellow communists/Russians regarding that one as they are the guys who made them...............so much for supporting the working class eh.

Re why Africa is still extremely poor...........you obviously haven't worked there. by that I'm not talking about a 2 week tree-hugging 'fact finding' mission a la Bono and his ilk, or a 'holiday' to paint a school or something. But employing Africans to work 6 days per week, 8 hours per day (I was doing 7 days per week, 12-14 hours per day as a comparison) to improve their country with money paid by the 'capitalist regimes that so repress them', to clear mines given/sold to them by Russia, Former Yugoslavia, India and Italy. Once you have worked with them, and lived in the bush with them for months at a time, then it becomes extremely apparent why Africa is so poor.....................hint: personal and social responsability or lack of.

[geoffk]

alot of you so called smart people make me sick with all this benefit scrounger talk,have any of you tried to live on £96 per week for a family of three,well i have and believe me its not the fun time you lot seem to think it is.no one chooses to be on benefit by choice unless they have another source of income. because it is the most hardest time of your life and the most expensive time of life. if you put the choice in front of someone on benefit and said here you are A JOB FOR £250 a week that lasts more than two or three weeks they would bite your hand off. being on benefit is the lowest time of a persons life and dont let anyone tell you different because they will have a hidden agenda if they do....

Edited November 4, 2007 by geoffk

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Geoffk - 100% correct- OK, living on benefits may be attractive in Germany or similar, but has anyone taken a look at what you get on jobseekers allowance in the UK? - it's a joke.

G

[Fudge]

I was in the area and saw the march.

the police presence seemed wildly out of proportion with the size of the demo and they were doing their best to be as intimidating as possible.

would be interesting to see if the Met would have felt the need to have that kind of presence at a march in a less affluent area.

The main role of the Police is to protect the property of the Rich so I am not at all suprised at the numbers of Police there.

They did their best to antagonise the protestors into reacting so that they could arrest them. One protestor with an arm in a sling got pulled out from the rest and taken away and we could hear him screaming. They kept pushing us and taking the piss. I knew what it was all done for so I ignored it. Once or twice it got really close from all kicking off.

Now some of those Police looked experienced and hard nuts but alot of them looked like fresh faced college boys and girls

and and are OK just walking along escorting u, but when we started getting aggressive they looked a bit too frightened for their own good. Made me think these old time coppers maybe hard but these new breed couldnt scare my gran.

[RichB]

its a ******site more than you get as a student. I spent six years as a student, picked up about 30k debt and worked my **** of in shops and night shifts. made less than I got in benefit the year before I went to university. pissed it all up the wall when I had cash, wen I didn't I lived on less than a fiver a week.

[Fudge]

I see, so its not how much you earn its how you earn it that bothers you. As for your last sentence - thats utter tripe, except the sponging bit. But then I expect most 'working' 9cos lets face it, sitting behind a computer screen moving money about is not working, but sitting behind a computer screen moving materials about is) people should feel it even more strongly.

But really - why does it matter how someone gets their money? What do you consider suitable professions?

Well its what someone gets for what they do, what they contribute to society and what they get in return.

I remember meeting this guy, went to his fantastic mansion like house with a big jag on the driveway.

I said what do you do for a living?

I sell insurance, I am an insurance salesman.

Well big ******ing deal, you have this fantastic lifestyle for selling insurance.

I dont think it is tripe, you have only got to listen to some of the people on this web forum.

Working in itself is not justification, its what a person does, what does it benefit or contribute.

A burglar calls what he does work, he might call it skilled, he may work hard, works unsocial hours.

Is it work?

[Fudge]

Hi Fudge, I'm the guy who mentioned Kabul - you referred to it in an earlier thread.

I wouldn't really say that Western capitalism is what kept Afghanistan backwards. It has always been a proud and tribal country with little want for Western luxuries (wonderful people by the way). As for the landmines that I'm clearing, you may want to speak to a few fellow communists/Russians regarding that one as they are the guys who made them...............so much for supporting the working class eh.

Re why Africa is still extremely poor...........you obviously haven't worked there. by that I'm not talking about a 2 week tree-hugging 'fact finding' mission a la Bono and his ilk, or a 'holiday' to paint a school or something. But employing Africans to work 6 days per week, 8 hours per day (I was doing 7 days per week, 12-14 hours per day as a comparison) to improve their country with money paid by the 'capitalist regimes that so repress them', to clear mines given/sold to them by Russia, Former Yugoslavia, India and Italy. Once you have worked with them, and lived in the bush with them for months at a time, then it becomes extremely apparent why Africa is so poor.....................hint: personal and social responsability or lack of.

The landmines may have been made by Russia but the dont by any means have cornered the market in arms manufacture. Wars always have been about countries sending its working classes in to kill each other in its imperialistic escapades. And I am not a communist thanks.

I think the arms industry is the biggest sector of the American economy and a major part of Britains.

I can remember a British company selling a componants for supergun to Saddams Iraq.

Afica, no never been there.

What company is paying to have mines removed? really I would like to know.

Africa is being kept down partly by the IMF loans that it is being forced to pay.

Or are you putting the cart before the horse, is it because of poverty, lack of any education or healthcare due to being forced to pay off loans for things they never benefited from in the first place.

Forced in a hopeless, futile position with no future that they cannot escape from that they have no personal and social responsibility.

In Victorian times, the poor were considered to be so because of drink, alchohol.

The reason they are poor is because they drink, it never occurred to them the reason they drink is because they

have a shit life that they are trapped into and so turn to drink.

[The Bachelor of Arts]

Hi Fudge,

The donors paying for the clearance are; UN, EU, UK (via DFID), USAID, Japan, Denmark, and a few other Western European nations. The money normally goes to Western companies/NGO's to try and capacity build with the local economy. We have all tried partnering with local companies but all that happens is they confiscate your equipment and Capex (with the backing of the govt) and sell it - so we end up at square one. Unfortunately they can't give direct to govt as it ends up in bank accounts in Dubai ($750m siphoned off by the Dinkas in Southern Sudan so far).

Working in Africa is hugely problematic compared to anywhere else in the world. I fully understand your view which is something along the lines of 'the reason they are like this is because they are poor', and I also held that opinion when I went there to work. Unfortunately and it took a long time for me to accept this, it is the other way round. 'The reason they are poor is because they are like this.' I have worked with poor people the world over, and no-where is there such an inability to accept personal responsibility as there is in Africa. (If you watched 'millionaires mission' on telly a few weeks ago that will give you a small insight.)

There are a number of ways through this for Africa, unfortunately most of them are completely unacceptable and unpalatable to most of us in the West. The only way I can think of is to only empower the women (who do all the work anyway) and do not give a single thing (money, aid, jobs, etc) to the men. Interestingly enough this seems to reflect the proven 'micro-finance' project in India where loans are only made to women and not men. Apparently the default rates are lower than over here.

Good luck with all your rich bashing...personally don't agree with it, but do love people who rock the boat from time to time.

[ianb78]

Jeez!

This is the 21st century. We live in a country where even the most poor are fed, clothed and sheltered. Living standards have never been higher for the average man!

I just don't see where you are coming from. Life is imperfect, there are examples of unfairness but at least in the UK we are free to express ourselves and have no absolute poverty. You have to accept that people are different and all possess different strengths and abilities. Some people will always be ahead and some will be behind. That is the nature of life!

Stop whining and get on with making the best for yourself and your family and be thankful you live such a comfortable life!

I think some people just enjoy 'rabble rousing' for the sake of it!

[Woody Finch]

Geoffk - 100% correct- OK, living on benefits may be attractive in Germany or similar, but has anyone taken a look at what you get on jobseekers allowance in the UK? - it's a joke.

G

Not so bad if you're also getting housing benefit, council tax benefit, tax credits and doing some cash in hand work on the side.

[lets get it right]

How surprising it is that you chose to respond with and article from a left wing rag! I am well aware that people are far less likely to succeed if they come from poorer backgrounds.

But my point is this. Can you please tell me why it is not possible for someone from ANY background to aquire education? Everyone has to go to school until the age of 16 (whether they have bothered to attend is another matter entirely). They now even get paid to stay on until 18. Even if they manage to mess up the first 18 years of their lives they are still able to go to adult community coleges. Let's take the worst case scenario - they end up in prison - you can still get an education/learn a trade there.

Regardless of anyone's background it is possible for them to succeed, given sufficient determination (this is show by those who are successful whilst coming from incredibly bad backgrounds). To say that most of them don't is not a reason or excuse for the rest. Everyone has one life to live, sadly a large amount spend a lot of time making excuses for their failings rather than finding solutions for their problems. One is easy to do, the other is not. But everyone makes that choice themselves - it is not a product of background, education or any number of other excuses such as my thumb really hurts so I can't work for the next 10 years!

I would be interested if you could give me a genuine reason why this is not possible, as opposed to an excuse why these people are in the situation they are currently in. (PS do you live in Tilly or Northfield?!)

I grew up in a poor (by definition), working-class area.

We had about 80 children in each year at primary school - divided into 2 classes of 40 children.

The two classes were (loosely) streamed.

At least 20 of the 40 children in the top stream went to grammar schools.

Of these 20, in due course, probably 95% went to university. Maybe 2 or 3 out of those 20 would go to Oxbridge.

Almost every one of the 80 children had a good grasp of the 3Rs by the time they left primary school. Failure to read well by the age of 11 was not an option. Obviously one or two of those 80 were not very academically able and, to be honest, the way they were treated and their experience at school was not a pleasant one.

But, for the rest, the system served them well - regardless of whether they were very bright or average.

Perhaps it is time to hand the education of our children over to the Catholic church. They made a much better job of it than the current chaos.

[mfp123]

Well its what someone gets for what they do, what they contribute to society and what they get in return.

I remember meeting this guy, went to his fantastic mansion like house with a big jag on the driveway.

I said what do you do for a living?

I sell insurance, I am an insurance salesman.

Well big ******ing deal, you have this fantastic lifestyle for selling insurance.

I dont think it is tripe, you have only got to listen to some of the people on this web forum.

Working in itself is not justification, its what a person does, what does it benefit or contribute.

A burglar calls what he does work, he might call it skilled, he may work hard, works unsocial hours.

Is it work?

earning money is not a zero sum game, its not as though someone else is hampering your earnings because they are earning more than you.

higher earners will pay more tax which could be argued to keep taxes lower for other people. e.g a person earning £100000 will pay around £36000 a year in tax whereas a person earning £25000 will pay £6000 a year in tax which is 6 times higher, so 1 person is contributing the equivalent of 6 people.

[Fudge]

Hi Fudge,

The donors paying for the clearance are; UN, EU, UK (via DFID), USAID, Japan, Denmark, and a few other Western European nations. The money normally goes to Western companies/NGO's to try and capacity build with the local economy. We have all tried partnering with local companies but all that happens is they confiscate your equipment and Capex (with the backing of the govt) and sell it - so we end up at square one. Unfortunately they can't give direct to govt as it ends up in bank accounts in Dubai ($750m siphoned off by the Dinkas in Southern Sudan so far).

Working in Africa is hugely problematic compared to anywhere else in the world. I fully understand your view which is something along the lines of 'the reason they are like this is because they are poor', and I also held that opinion when I went there to work. Unfortunately and it took a long time for me to accept this, it is the other way round. 'The reason they are poor is because they are like this.' I have worked with poor people the world over, and no-where is there such an inability to accept personal responsibility as there is in Africa. (If you watched 'millionaires mission' on telly a few weeks ago that will give you a small insight.)

There are a number of ways through this for Africa, unfortunately most of them are completely unacceptable and unpalatable to most of us in the West. The only way I can think of is to only empower the women (who do all the work anyway) and do not give a single thing (money, aid, jobs, etc) to the men. Interestingly enough this seems to reflect the proven 'micro-finance' project in India where loans are only made to women and not men. Apparently the default rates are lower than over here.

Good luck with all your rich bashing...personally don't agree with it, but do love people who rock the boat from time to time.

So it is various western Governments using tax payers money to fund projects and the money is going to western private companies.

Human nature is very much a result of the environment, in a civilised society people will

grow up by and large civilised. We are now at a stage in human evolution where we can control and determine the environment we live in so we have some considerable influence over how people turn out.

Anyway good luck it sounds like you are doing some great work out there.

[Fudge]

Jeez!

This is the 21st century. We live in a country where even the most poor are fed, clothed and sheltered. Living standards have never been higher for the average man!

I just don't see where you are coming from. Life is imperfect, there are examples of unfairness but at least in the UK we are free to express ourselves and have no absolute poverty. You have to accept that people are different and all possess different strengths and abilities. Some people will always be ahead and some will be behind. That is the nature of life!

Stop whining and get on with making the best for yourself and your family and be thankful you live such a comfortable life!

I think some people just enjoy 'rabble rousing' for the sake of it!

We are living in the 21st Century but seem to be heading back to Victorian times.

The protest proved to me through experience that we are not free to express ourselves in the UK, in fact it

showed me how much we have fallen into a Police state, where when it suits the police they will ignore the law

and use violence and intimidation. Yes some people will always be ahead and some people behind and apart

from a few exceptions its the same usually people and families. Capitalism is a system not a natural way of life.

[dogbox]

Well its what someone gets for what they do, what they contribute to society and what they get in return.

I remember meeting this guy, went to his fantastic mansion like house with a big jag on the driveway.

I said what do you do for a living?

I sell insurance, I am an insurance salesman.

Well big ******ing deal, you have this fantastic lifestyle for selling insurance.

Point your missing here is that he is adding significant value to the foodchain. Without his sales no one else in the company gets to earn.

Alan Sugars 'The Aprentice' is really a quest for someone that adds most value. In the end it's the hussler, the doer, the creator of wealth out of thin air that adds most monetary value.

We may find such people a bit vulgar, perhaps even thick in an academic sense, but is that a reason not to pay them thier dues?

Ok now you may say, "why pay a Nurse less than a saleman". Its all down to supply and demand. There are many people willing to be a nurse for modest reward. There are relatively few that can cobble together revenue generation entities out of thin air.

[dogbox]

Capitalism is a system not a natural way of life.

What alternative system do you propose?

[BTLlivingthedream]

Perhaps it is time to hand the education of our children over to the Catholic church. They made a much better job of it than the current chaos.

yeah...That good old catholic church. Bend over little orphan boy, I will eradicate your sins with my Holy Wand.

I would rather trust children to feral wolves than the church.

[ukdaasfan]

Well its what someone gets for what they do, what they contribute to society and what they get in return.

I remember meeting this guy, went to his fantastic mansion like house with a big jag on the driveway.

I said what do you do for a living?

I sell insurance, I am an insurance salesman.

Well big ******ing deal, you have this fantastic lifestyle for selling insurance.

I dont think it is tripe, you have only got to listen to some of the people on this web forum.

Working in itself is not justification, its what a person does, what does it benefit or contribute.

A burglar calls what he does work, he might call it skilled, he may work hard, works unsocial hours.

Is it work?

What wrong with selling insurance. Quite important stuff insurance..... If you've ever been hurt at work you'd know how importatn the comapnies insurance policy. If you've ever been ill abroad, been mugged, burgled.....

Sounds Ok to me.