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meow

The Election

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Now is it just me or does it seem to you that the two major political parties of the UK are actually doing their very best to NOT win the next election? I've often heard this sort of idea banded about on the odd post in the odd thread now and again but I thought it would be good to sit down and have this one out!...

The first thing to understand about my first statement is it is not the leaders of which I speak, it's the actual parties, I would imagine Cameron and Brown are more than keen to continue spouting crap and getting their shoes shined on public money, but I sometimes wonder if the parties themselves have installed the best leader to let their party shy away from impending events (you all know what I mean!) very much intentionally

The case for the tories in this hypothesis is pretty much open and shut, go for clearly the wrong guy and proceed to let him say all the wrong things at the wrong times. I often wonder if Cameron is actually a softening device for the next leader, letting people cosy up to the tories or at the very least not completely despise them any more, wait for the country to implode, install sensible candidate (clarke, davis possibly..?) then step back into the arena and lap up the warm embraces - all is forgiven.

As for Labour, here's a thought I haven't seen suggested, install a popular straight kinda guy (excuse me while I go laugh for a few hours.... I'm back, I'll carry on...), proceed to do whatever 51% of the people want (*cough* like clinton *cough*) waaaaiiitt 'till it's juuuuuust about bareably bad enough, depose the straight kinda guy and install a clear numpty, this time sans-"glossy smile and faux-charisma", wait to get kicked out, blame anything that goes wrong on numpty number 2, slag off tories for 5 years, step back in and trade on how wonderful the blair area "was" (sic). I'll especially believe labour want to lose if they call a snap election too, I just "don't" believe the polls, the only way Brown would get voted in is if a group of tories voted for him to let him take the impending flak; I also wonder how many labour voters will be voting tory for similar reasons :lol: This could be a very confusing election!

The more I think about it the more I'm starting to think it's all just a big long term PR stunt

Right, well the foil in my hat is itching now so I'll take it off and pass it over to you lot...

p.s. I'm still going for Oct 15th for the election

Edited by meow

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And it is for those reasons I shall be voting Labour, for the first time ever.

They need to pay for what they have done. With everything unwinding they won't be able to keep the 'miracle economy' on track for another 4 years!

I urge every man and woman to vote Labour, otherwise we'll have four years of a terrible economic meltdown with the tories and as you say everyone will vote Labour back in. Isn't this country bad enough already?

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I don't believe the "install the worst candidates" argument - would you tell me that John Major was a good candidate?

I think it is entirely plausible that Labour don't want to win the next election... though they're being hampered because no matter what they do no-one seems to capitalise on it politically. I can see absolutely no other reason for Brown to have invited Thatcher to No 10, for example. Conversely, it seems inconceivable that Labour wouldn't win an election this year.

I was *extremely* suspicious when Brown became PM without any challenge. Even if it were the case that no other Labour MP was sufficiently adept to challenge, it seems curious that no-one stood... even if 'just for show'. I wonder if the deal that has been done is that Brown managed the economy to the advantage of Labour, but took big personal risks... maybe bending rules... secure in the knowledge that by becoming prime minister that this puts him beyond prosecution. Of course, this is merely a wild speculation... probably utter fiction... but I did wonder.

I don't think we will see a snap election this year.... and I further predict that the next national election will coincide with the onset of a major recession. If Labour win, they'll want to get the bad news out of the way ASAP, so are likely to work to orchestrate this... in the hope that 2 or 3 years later there's a recovery and they can blame something international and "outside their control" for the calamity. If Conservative or LibDem win, then it is in Labour's interest to stack up the cards for inescapable calamity a month or so later. Either way, I suspect national elections to be the best marker event.

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Politicians love power and want it now. There is no way Brown or Cameron are going to throw elections even if it is in the long term interests of their parties because they may never have another shot of being PM. Nor do I suspect that many MPs will be actively supporting such behaviour since it is their jobs on the line. This sort of thinking is probably consigned to ambitious malcontents who have an eye on the top job for themselves. Given the choice of a being a nobody in a happy and prosperous land or being leader amongst the ruins of their country most politicians would opt for the latter.

Edited by up2nogood

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I think we should all vote for Jamie Oliver, at least we'd try something new today. TBH the whole things goosed, so what does it matter who gets in. The economic mess will unravel kneejerk reactions will only make it worse. We need statesmen not spinmen.

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I can see absolutely no other reason for Brown to have invited Thatcher to No 10, for example. Conversely, it seems inconceivable that Labour wouldn't win an election this year.

I was *extremely* suspicious when Brown became PM without any challenge

Yes, what better way to shout "PLEASE DON'T VOTE FOR ME!" than to invite for a happy canoodle the very person that most of your own core vote despise.

Politicians love power and want it now. There is no way Brown or Cameron are going to throw elections even if it is in the long term interests of their parties because they may never have another shot of being PM. Nor do I suspect that many MPs will be actively supporting such behaviour since it is their jobs on the line. This sort of thinking is probably consigned to ambitious malcontents who have an eye on the top job for themselves. Given the choice of a being a nobody in a happy and prosperous land or being leader amongst the ruins of their country most politicians would opt for the latter.

If you read again, my main point was NOT that the candidates don't want power it's the parties. However, A.Steve's points are valid that Brown does appear keen to not be in power, I mean come on! Inviting Margaret Thatcher!!?!?!? Why didn't he just visit every ex-mining site in the uk with a press rabble and take a massive dump whilst singing the praises of Enoch Powel and Norman Tebitt. No, inviting maggie was a much easier way to do it, but then it does get tories to vote for you, so... tories who want him to stay in power to take the flak.... now I'm getting confused

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Guest pioneer31
And it is for those reasons I shall be voting Labour, for the first time ever.

They need to pay for what they have done. With everything unwinding they won't be able to keep the 'miracle economy' on track for another 4 years!

I urge every man and woman to vote Labour, otherwise we'll have four years of a terrible economic meltdown with the tories and as you say everyone will vote Labour back in. Isn't this country bad enough already?

Agreed.

If the Tories get in, they'll get the blame for the mess that Gordon sowed and then Labour will return in a blaze of glory and I'll reach for that Smith and Weston.

Labour need to stay put In metaphorical terms, I want to see Gordie, be forced to sit in his own faeces.

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It does matter who you vote for !!!

The rich in this country have attained their wealth through being ruthless, inherited, old school tie *****ers.

No matter who you vote for you get what I call the hidden masters in power.

They tell you who to vote for and you vote for them. the media spin stories and portray a party that fits your democratic group.

In the next election Gordon Brown will win !!!!!!

Why because you are told to.

Your choice is irrelevent. Whoever you vote for you vote for them, our hidden masters.

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It does matter who you vote for !!!

The rich in this country have attained their wealth through being ruthless, inherited, old school tie *****ers.

No matter who you vote for you get what I call the hidden masters in power.

They tell you who to vote for and you vote for them. the media spin stories and portray a party that fits your democratic group.

In the next election Gordon Brown will win !!!!!!

Why because you are told to.

Your choice is irrelevent. Whoever you vote for you vote for them, our hidden masters.

And this is different from what other country in the world? As long as there is bread and circuses then no-one will rock the boat. It's times when things are rough that the people are likely to revolt and take power... A wise ruling elite can take steps to limit this by disarming the people, empowering the authorities to arrest and detain on only the suspicion of crime, remove right to trial by a jury of peers, build an ID database and finally monitor the populations movement incessantly via CCTV, OCR and facial recognition technology.

Only in a country enacting these things do the people need to fear the future.. errr hang on... Blimey we are fooked!

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No it doesn't.

But it does get Labour voters to NOT vote for you?

I think I already made that second point, although you're probably right about the first, pulling maggie out of the bag as a stunt to get tory votes is probably a little "too" naive, therefore I'll stick with my "he'll get tory votes 'cos they want him to sit in his own mess" view.

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Now is it just me or does it seem to you that the two major political parties of the UK are actually doing their very best to NOT win the next election? I've often heard this sort of idea banded about on the odd post in the odd thread now and again but I thought it would be good to sit down and have this one out!...

It has crossed my mind that the Tories are determined to lose this one.

The silence from the opposition on the recent NR/banking problems, apart from Vince Cable and Ken Clarke, has been deafening.

Edited by needle

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It has crossed my mind that the Tories are determined to lose this one.

The silence from the opposition on the recent NR/banking problems, apart from Vince Cable and Ken Clarke, has been deafening.

I believe Newsnight made mention of Cameron making "some" attempt at a critique but it was about 3 days too late and about as limp wristed as you could get.

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The day of the flitting in 97 in Downing Street I said to my wife they'll be in for at least 10 years by which time the country will be completely Knackered, I think I was spot on.

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It has crossed my mind that the Tories are determined to lose this one.

The silence from the opposition on the recent NR/banking problems, apart from Vince Cable and Ken Clarke, has been deafening.

Needle, I have to agree there. The logic being...

The population at large aren't suffering yet. Yes, it looks like the storm clouds are about to drop their damp, lightning-laden load, but very few have actually got wet yet. Criticising Brown on the economy is something which can only be attempted by those who're going for a fringe vote, or those who aren't actually looking to get the public on their side. For ye average punter, claims of impending doom won't do much, as all they see (for very obvious reasons) is "business as usual, it's okay, I'm not with NR, I've still got my job, I've still got my house, inflation's low because the number we're given's low, house prices aren't falling near me, I'm not sub-prime but maybe the neighbours are".

Bill Clinton was right when he said "It's the economy, stupid!", and until the economy turns round and bites you on the ****, it's hard to perceive anything wrong. The Tories know damn well what's coming, as do the LibDems, as do Labour. Their strategies must, must (if any degree of logic is applied) be either "duck and cover, we'll get back in next time as they'll have ****ed it by then", or "we're a shoe-in if we go now, that gives us four years to sort it".

Veering radically...

Part of the reason I see the coming events as a primarily deflationary bust is Labour's position. If they go now, and get relected (they will get back in), they've got to get the pain over with and get growth going within four years. Inflating out of it won't do it. Deflating will. Deflating will give them scapegoats (bankers, BTL, reckless borrowers), selling points (affordable housing - a big one with their core vote), and a chance to claim that they've "done the right thing". Inflating*, as I'm sure most of the forum would agree, just ends up in a potentially catastrophic hangover which will need to be ended by someone showing up with the balls to sort it (see 1979). Labour don't want to repeat the events of the late 70s, and I for one think they'll do their damnest to make sure they don't. Brown may not be the greatest economic manager out there, but he's a very shrewd politician.

* Yes, they're doing it now, but if the Autumn election scenario plays out, when they get back in, things will change. NR's future is roughly election night plus two weeks.

(Editted to correct spelling, but couldn't be bothered, so you'll have to live with it. Blame gin.)

Edited by Moo

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It has crossed my mind that the Tories are determined to lose this one.

The silence from the opposition on the recent NR/banking problems, apart from Vince Cable and Ken Clarke, has been deafening.

You appear to be assuming that because you heard nothing, nothing was said. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Napoleon Bonaparte:

Four hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets.

For the more contemporary:

It's the Sun what won it!

David Cameron, the Lib dems and even Gordon are at the mercy of the press. Look at the Northern Rock incident recently. Even the press themselves now admit that it was their reporting of the situation that precipitated the run on NR. If you wish for further proof look at the circumstances around the Diana farce in this country. In an effort to deflect blame for her death their maudlin reporting caused an hysterical reaction among the population of this country. The press could not have wished for a more compelling example of the influence they could wield.

The BBC is by far the most powerful of these organisations but Murdoch is close behind. For their own reasons they both favour Labour. The result is that whatever the opposition, be it Tory, Lib dem, BNP or even green their message is systematically undermined by bias, mis-reporting or simple exclusion.

The media has taken a dislike to Cameron. Initially it was indifferent or noncommittal, waiting to see what it had. Now it has chosen how to enfeeble him. Cameron has made this very easy for them but that is another topic. It would not matter what candidate the opposition put before Labour he (or she) will either be too young (and therefore inexperienced) too old (like Ming and therefore incapable) if he's Tory from a public school he's too posh, if he has no hair he's too bald....it goes on.

The only thing that will see Labour displaced (other that some avoidable catastrophe) is the same thing that has caused changes in Governments for the last 40 years, the economy. If people see money leaking out of their pockets, or lose their jobs or the value of their homes goes down they will lash out at the incumbent regardless of party politics.

In an attempt to mitigate the possibility of associating any economic problems with the actions of Gordon/Labour, the current "credit crunch" is always accompanied on the BBC with the phrase "which started in the American sub-prime market". This mantra is intended to hypnotise the masses into believing that all positives in the economy were brought to you by Gordon whereas all problems originate abroad (and if that happens to be America - all the better).

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Politicians love power and want it now. There is no way Brown or Cameron are going to throw elections even if it is in the long term interests of their parties because they may never have another shot of being PM. Nor do I suspect that many MPs will be actively supporting such behaviour since it is their jobs on the line. This sort of thinking is probably consigned to ambitious malcontents who have an eye on the top job for themselves. Given the choice of a being a nobody in a happy and prosperous land or being leader amongst the ruins of their country most politicians would opt for the latter.

They also love their Parliamentary expenses. When government ministers are using expenses to pay mortgage interest (see this thread) they are not going to throw an election. They'll do anything, including bankrupting the country, to stay in power.

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Inflating out of it won't do it. Deflating will. Deflating will give them scapegoats (bankers, BTL, reckless borrowers), selling points (affordable housing - a big one with their core vote), and a chance to claim that they've "done the right thing". Inflating*, as I'm sure most of the forum would agree, just ends up in a potentially catastrophic hangover which will need to be ended by someone showing up with the balls to sort it (see 1979). Labour don't want to repeat the events of the late 70s, and I for one think they'll do their damnest to make sure they don't. Brown may not be the greatest economic manager out there, but he's a very shrewd politician.

* Yes, they're doing it now, but if the Autumn election scenario plays out, when they get back in, things will change. NR's future is roughly election night plus two weeks.

...but hyperinflation is what will happen, 100% correct, gauranteed! ;)

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And it is for those reasons I shall be voting Labour, for the first time ever.

They need to pay for what they have done. With everything unwinding they won't be able to keep the 'miracle economy' on track for another 4 years!

I urge every man and woman to vote Labour, otherwise we'll have four years of a terrible economic meltdown with the tories and as you say everyone will vote Labour back in. Isn't this country bad enough already?

They will be voting Labour ,don't you worry.Not for the reason you suggest but because most are basking in all that funny money printed by the MPC on their houses.Gordon should go early before any of it starts to erode.

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As a past labour voter, there is not even the slightest chance of me voting for GB this time. Aside from the way he mismanaged our economy, inviting Thatcher to no. 10 was the final straw for me. Call me shallow, but I shall give someone else my vote (although not Cameron).

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Guest
As a past labour voter, there is not even the slightest chance of me voting for GB this time. Aside from the way he mismanaged our economy, inviting Thatcher to no. 10 was the final straw for me. Call me shallow, but I shall give someone else my vote (although not Cameron).

This *could* be precisely what he wants you to do.

Well I will vote for Labour in your place then.

;)

MF

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Part of the reason I see the coming events as a primarily deflationary bust is Labour's position.

Would this be the first deflationary bust in history, or can you provide an example?

(I'm curious, and don't intend to suggest that your analysis is wrong...)

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As a past labour voter, there is not even the slightest chance of me voting for GB this time. Aside from the way he mismanaged our economy, inviting Thatcher to no. 10 was the final straw for me. Call me shallow, but I shall give someone else my vote (although not Cameron).

I think he might have scored a bit of an own goal with being photographed in the following pose on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7009728.stm

Just mentally add in the small black moustache.

Surely politicians are taught to never raise their right arm into that position. I suppose that is what comes of doing away with spin-doctors.

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