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DaveyDave

The Best Way To Wind Up Blters?

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Through regulation, BTL should be turned into a serious business which requires company registration and submission of accounts once a year - I think you'd find some of the BTL spongers that dodge their tax would think again and start behaving like other business owners are required to behave. They think they can use BTL as some sort of pension-replacement scheme where they don't need to make any repayments and the tax relief is effectively provided by the tenant. This disgusting abuse of money must be stamped out before it spreads like a cancer to parts of the country as yet untouched by the careless and greedy tentacles of BTL parasites.

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As they have a legal responsibility to tenants for safety checks etc. Maybe they should be required to get the equivalent of a "tax disc" that's displayed in the property itself.

No tax disc ... and you know the LL hasn't covered the bases.

Tax disc issuance would require a yearly small fee and they'd have to take in some relevant paperwork: letter from mortgage company saying "BTL mortgage/letting approved" or evidence they own it outright; gas check; other stuff.

Maybe even be forced to attend a short course (nothing expensive or major) and an exam covering the basics of their responsibilities/the law.

Visible evidence.

That makes them visible, trackable and accountable

Employers have to display a Certificate of Employer's Liability Insurance on the office wall... so it would be akin to that.

And I'll copyright this idea here and now.

:)

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As they have a legal responsibility to tenants for safety checks etc. Maybe they should be required to get the equivalent of a "tax disc" that's displayed in the property itself.

No tax disc ... and you know the LL hasn't covered the bases.

Tax disc issuance would require a yearly small fee and they'd have to take in some relevant paperwork: letter from mortgage company saying "BTL mortgage/letting approved" or evidence they own it outright; gas check; other stuff.

:)

lol :lol:

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As they have a legal responsibility to tenants for safety checks etc. Maybe they should be required to get the equivalent of a "tax disc" that's displayed in the property itself.

No tax disc ... and you know the LL hasn't covered the bases.

Tax disc issuance would require a yearly small fee and they'd have to take in some relevant paperwork: letter from mortgage company saying "BTL mortgage/letting approved" or evidence they own it outright; gas check; other stuff.

Maybe even be forced to attend a short course (nothing expensive or major) and an exam covering the basics of their responsibilities/the law.

Visible evidence.

That makes them visible, trackable and accountable

Employers have to display a Certificate of Employer's Liability Insurance on the office wall... so it would be akin to that.

And I'll copyright this idea here and now.

:)

What a great idea. We should all borrow it and write to our MPs suggesting it.

The idea of training is good and ensuring they have a neighbour nuisance policy too for dealing with their noisy tenants.

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Guest Yeahbutnocrash
Through regulation, BTL should be turned into a serious business which requires company registration and submission of accounts once a year - I think you'd find some of the BTL spongers that dodge their tax would think again and start behaving like other business owners are required to behave. They think they can use BTL as some sort of pension-replacement scheme where they don't need to make any repayments and the tax relief is effectively provided by the tenant. This disgusting abuse of money must be stamped out before it spreads like a cancer to parts of the country as yet untouched by the careless and greedy tentacles of BTL parasites.

BTL is a business and the profits should be taxed accordingly. LL's should be making an annual tax return in any case and this pretty much equates to keeping a set of accounts

LL's should of course act responsibly

I suggest LL's should be made to use an accredited letting agent who would then help to ensure properties and tennants are managed properly and fairly

And the Government should ensure they follow up LL's who aren't submitting tax returns

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Guest Yeahbutnocrash
As they have a legal responsibility to tenants for safety checks etc. Maybe they should be required to get the equivalent of a "tax disc" that's displayed in the property itself.

No tax disc ... and you know the LL hasn't covered the bases.

Tax disc issuance would require a yearly small fee and they'd have to take in some relevant paperwork: letter from mortgage company saying "BTL mortgage/letting approved" or evidence they own it outright; gas check; other stuff.

Maybe even be forced to attend a short course (nothing expensive or major) and an exam covering the basics of their responsibilities/the law.

Visible evidence.

That makes them visible, trackable and accountable

Employers have to display a Certificate of Employer's Liability Insurance on the office wall... so it would be akin to that.

And I'll copyright this idea here and now.

:)

This suggestion does seem to have it's merits :)

Any potential tenant would expect to see the certificate or licence and if it's not produced they can give that property a miss and inform the authorities

Maybe they should also have a shop an illegal LL hotline!

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Guest vicmac64
This suggestion does seem to have it's merits :)

Any potential tenant would expect to see the certificate or licence and if it's not produced they can give that property a miss and inform the authorities

Maybe they should also have a shop an illegal LL hotline!

Yeah - this is a real good idea.

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Hi there, someone told me a post of mine had been linked here.

I think the main problem with those guys is not the money they have invested in property but the emotional capital they have put into it. They have convinced themselves that this is their calling and the idea that it might not be a profitable venture in the near future is unthinkable to them. As a result, they cannot ever see a bear case even when it is staring them in the face. In fact, in all the discussions I have had with bulls on that site and on Housemouse and the FT forum before it, I have never found a single market bull who has actually presented proper arguments to be bullish (if you don’t count me 12-18 months ago, but that was only a one year view!). In other words, not one of them has studied the outlook for his investment*.

Anyway, what has interested me returning to this site after such a long time is how active it is and how slow SP is - 3 years ago it was the exact opposite. That tells me a lot about the market.

(*actually there was a very bright guy called Mark Harrison who did and does, but I’m not sure is he exactly what you would call a market bull in the same sense that the other guys are).

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Hi there, someone told me a post of mine had been linked here.

I think the main problem with those guys is not the money they have invested in property but the emotional capital they have put into it. They have convinced themselves that this is their calling and the idea that it might not be a profitable venture in the near future is unthinkable to them. As a result, they cannot ever see a bear case even when it is staring them in the face. In fact, in all the discussions I have had with bulls on that site and on Housemouse and the FT forum before it, I have never found a single market bull who has actually presented proper arguments to be bullish (if you don’t count me 12-18 months ago, but that was only a one year view!). In other words, not one of them has studied the outlook for his investment*.

Anyway, what has interested me returning to this site after such a long time is how active it is and how slow SP is - 3 years ago it was the exact opposite. That tells me a lot about the market.

(*actually there was a very bright guy called Mark Harrison who did and does, but I’m not sure is he exactly what you would call a market bull in the same sense that the other guys are).

A good point about emontional attachment. Remember that quite a few people have 'given up the day job' to do this kind of thing. Where does that leave you when it all goes wrong? With a nasty gap on the CV, that's where. I can imagine the job interviews:

"So what were you doing for those 3 years?"

"Property investment"

"So why are you coming back to work now?"

"&%!%"

"Oh, that's interesting"

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This disgusting abuse of money must be stamped out before it spreads like a cancer to parts of the country as yet untouched by the careless and greedy tentacles of BTL parasites.

And which part of the country would this be then? The Outer Hebrides? :huh:

Edited by SHERWICK

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As they have a legal responsibility to tenants for safety checks etc. Maybe they should be required to get the equivalent of a "tax disc" that's displayed in the property itself.

http://www.betterrentingscotland.com/prh/p...?pContentID=281

Doesn't seem to have been actually implemented though. Either that, or most landlords aren't registered. Both seem equally as likely.

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And which part of the country would this be then? The Outer Hebrides? :huh:

There are still some places that haven't been overrun by BTL landlords. Some estate agents (and vendors too) stipulate that the sale must be conditional on owner-occupation. This is rare but there are cases. When I sold my flat last year, I insisted on it going to first time buyers. In any sale, both parties must agree on the terms and homeowners seem to forget that they can choose who they sell to, particularly in a sellers market as it has been until recently.

Edited by BarrelShifter

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I think the main problem with those guys is not the money they have invested in property but the emotional capital they have put into it. They have convinced themselves that this is their calling and the idea that it might not be a profitable venture in the near future is unthinkable to them. As a result, they cannot ever see a bear case even when it is staring them in the face. .

As a sort of side issue, anyone looking at rental property in recent years will have seen another unpleasant aspect of this.

I would imagine 99% of people in the sub-luxury letting market (penthouses in Monaco etc) want neutral decor and if furnishings are provided, relatively anonymous basic pieces.

I remember this is what Beeny spends most of her shows repeating ad nauseum. But as on that show, and in real life, many 'amateur' BTLs aren't listening and instead create dodgy overdone boudoir-type dwellings in otherwise ordinary cheapo coversion properties. And I can guarantee you move into one these places and expect to have never-ending fussing and hassle from your landlady. It isn't your home, its her art-design project. Your presence is to pay the bills and will be otherwise resented. Quite normal wear and tear (real or indeed, imagined) will be met with utter hysteria. Much better to rent from an emotionally uninvolved professional.

Edited by Cogs

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Hi there, someone told me a post of mine had been linked here.

I think the main problem with those guys is not the money they have invested in property but the emotional capital they have put into it. They have convinced themselves that this is their calling and the idea that it might not be a profitable venture in the near future is unthinkable to them. As a result, they cannot ever see a bear case even when it is staring them in the face. In fact, in all the discussions I have had with bulls on that site and on Housemouse and the FT forum before it, I have never found a single market bull who has actually presented proper arguments to be bullish (if you don’t count me 12-18 months ago, but that was only a one year view!). In other words, not one of them has studied the outlook for his investment*.

Anyway, what has interested me returning to this site after such a long time is how active it is and how slow SP is - 3 years ago it was the exact opposite. That tells me a lot about the market.

(*actually there was a very bright guy called Mark Harrison who did and does, but I’m not sure is he exactly what you would call a market bull in the same sense that the other guys are).

Extradry – welcome (back?) to hpc.co.uk.

I remember you from the old ft forum, I’m reassured that you still hold bearish views, kind of justifies my own disbelief at the levels to which the property market has continuously risen.

Your clashes with Hoog on the ft forum are still vaguely in my memory, even though he wasn’t THAT bullish (but was very entertaining), just didn’t think prices might crash, and thus far, he’s had a point. However, they boomed much further than even he thought, and it was only some insightful bears who suggested it might boom further, that being bubble-behaviour.

However, not sure how much there is to debate anymore, my suspicion was that house prices were unsustainable and that buying would be an unjustifiable risk for me personally, the potential personal loss was too great compared to the potential gains. But this board has come alight especially in the last month, I believe because the popularly-recognisable ‘trigger’ (if that’s what you can call it – more akin to macro-economic forces making themselves apparent in microeconomic and newsworthy form) - the sub-prime crisis – appears to have irrevocably happened, and the rest is history in the making. It’s turned from theory, and a lot of self-doubting but ultimate faith in my recognition of what was going on, to all-too-real actual events playing out. It’s exciting, if with an element of schadenfreude, which I try to temper in myself but blimey I’ve had to be patient all these years – the general peak in the market, being a sentiment-driven market, has coincided with almost everyone I know telling me how I have to buy a house, which of course then reinforces my view that it must be a bubble, this is not rational behaviour if something is very very expensive.

Any thoughts on where this may take the world now anyway, particularly politically; if a correction plays itself out, any typical political implications – protectionism, changes to political balance of power – how DO countries ACTUALLY respond to this stuff when it happens? And how SHOULD they respond? And will Mervyn King still be in the same job in a year’s time, even if Gordon Brown isn’t?

Thanks., Si1 (old ‘Si’ in the FT forum…)

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It is not so easy to re-enter normal employment, especially after the age of 40.

Once an entrpreneur, always an entrepreneur.

But do BTL and BMV speculators have any genuine entrpeneurial skills? I wonder.

my suspicion, based on experience of peoples' personalities, is that recent BTLrs would probably typically do well in car sales or high street financial and closely-associated back office roles, both of which require low enough iq not to question what you do, and a general lack of actual competence beyond screwing the next guy. Sorry to be so cynical, I think, even without being that insightful, they are clearly go-getters which is beneficial an awful lot of the time, if ill-judged wrt some recent property-investment.

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Just found this anecdote from a small BTL'er on the Amazon sellers forum. (May require an amazon account or sellers account to access link)

http://forums.prosperotechnologies.com/n/m...amp;msg=8738.10

What is sad about this truth is that there must be many, many other people - such as students - for who such a background income earned independently of bosses and in such time as is convenient would be - and used to be, through Amazon - extremely useful; but that in the conditions which have now been created it is not really available, since to make it make you have to devote all the hours Gods sends to it.

There is evidence that, in our present economic system, almost any independent work or small business will, if successfully, quickly be swamped and taken over by huge corporations who covet the profits of those myriad little people and can afford to take over any given niche on a much smaller profit margin.

Another example is buy-to-let property. I have had a small number of these, mostly in one large Midlands city, for the past six years. In the past two years, big property companies have suddenly built thousands of new flats, with the result that rents are plummeting below the levels which would cover the mortgage repayments, repairs, agents' fees etc, and properties are standing empty for months on end. Good for tenants - until one day the ONLY landlords will be the big companies, and then look out!

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Guest absolutezero
Good for tenants - until one day the ONLY landlords will be the big companies, and then look out!

I tend to think a similar thing but swap the word 'landlords' for 'food shops'.

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I tend to prefer big professional landlord firms that know the rules and understand a win-win scenario where they don't screw you for rent and in return they get a steadier rental income.

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Through regulation, BTL should be turned into a serious business which requires company registration and submission of accounts once a year - I think you'd find some of the BTL spongers that dodge their tax would think again and start behaving like other business owners are required to behave. They think they can use BTL as some sort of pension-replacement scheme where they don't need to make any repayments and the tax relief is effectively provided by the tenant. This disgusting abuse of money must be stamped out before it spreads like a cancer to parts of the country as yet untouched by the careless and greedy tentacles of BTL parasites.

lol. I hope that none of this ever happens.

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