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http://www.eastbourneherald.co.uk/watson/H...woes.3147459.jp

House moving woes

By Claire Watson

My excitement, stress and constant chatter about moving into my new flat just about has to come to an end this week. I'm knackered.

Having trawled properties good and bad, met estate agents helpful and not so, downsized my plans with each mortgage adviser I have met, cringed at each new house price crash prediction in the news :rolleyes: and made an unreasonable amount of trips up two flights of stairs with my belongings, I'm a home owner.

I need some kind of exorcism (and ranting in this column is useful for just that) now it's over because 'they' are right when 'they' say moving home is one of the most stressful things you can do.

I didn't buy into that willy-nilly. I honestly thought it would only be stressful if I made it stressful, that I could be all serene and that somebody would eventually call me and say 'sign this', 'pay this', 'here are your keys'.

Needless to say it doesn't work like that but as a first time buyer – one of those strange creatures alluded to in the news so often alongside the words 'risk' and 'repossession' – you don't know until you have tried it for yourself.

It was all over bar the painting 11 weeks after I had my offer accepted.

Lucky, too, because I think if it had gone on any longer I might have exploded or my colleagues, friends, family might have gagged me and shut me in a cupboard.

On the other hand, first time buyers make interesting guinea pigs.

It's like anyone who knows me can watch and see if the horror stories about struggling onto the ladder are true.

There are the major worries like not being able to afford to eat if something bad should happen to interest rates (I keep my knowledge of this simple, clearly, I don't pretend to be an expert).

Then there are

the more day-to-day things that just have to be sacrificed or put on hold for the time being, like eating out.

Enter my friends Hannah and Jo, who came over this week to make all the right noises about the flat I have been talking about for months. They are shocked to find I don't have a cooker (!) or a television (!!!).

They have a look about them that suspiciously asks 'How long do you plan to keep this up?' I have a look about me that says 'I hope I can keep this up'.

But basically I have to. And so I'm putting away the chatter about my new flat and replacing it with just getting on with it because I'm glad to be at the stage where that is all there is left to do.

The old purse-restricting mantra 'I'm saving for a flat' will be replaced with 'I've got a mortgage to pay' and my social life will officially become confined to my flat. But it is my flat, so that makes it ok.

Last Updated: 25 August 2007 8:25 AM

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http://www.eastbourneherald.co.uk/watson/H...woes.3147459.jp

House moving woes

By Claire Watson

My excitement, stress and constant chatter about moving into my new flat just about has to come to an end this week. I'm knackered.

Having trawled properties good and bad, met estate agents helpful and not so, downsized my plans with each mortgage adviser I have met, cringed at each new house price crash prediction in the news :rolleyes: and made an unreasonable amount of trips up two flights of stairs with my belongings, I'm a home owner.

I need some kind of exorcism (and ranting in this column is useful for just that) now it's over because 'they' are right when 'they' say moving home is one of the most stressful things you can do.

I didn't buy into that willy-nilly. I honestly thought it would only be stressful if I made it stressful, that I could be all serene and that somebody would eventually call me and say 'sign this', 'pay this', 'here are your keys'.

Needless to say it doesn't work like that but as a first time buyer – one of those strange creatures alluded to in the news so often alongside the words 'risk' and 'repossession' – you don't know until you have tried it for yourself.

It was all over bar the painting 11 weeks after I had my offer accepted.

Lucky, too, because I think if it had gone on any longer I might have exploded or my colleagues, friends, family might have gagged me and shut me in a cupboard.

On the other hand, first time buyers make interesting guinea pigs.

It's like anyone who knows me can watch and see if the horror stories about struggling onto the ladder are true.

There are the major worries like not being able to afford to eat if something bad should happen to interest rates (I keep my knowledge of this simple, clearly, I don't pretend to be an expert).

Then there are

the more day-to-day things that just have to be sacrificed or put on hold for the time being, like eating out.

Enter my friends Hannah and Jo, who came over this week to make all the right noises about the flat I have been talking about for months. They are shocked to find I don't have a cooker (!) or a television (!!!).

They have a look about them that suspiciously asks 'How long do you plan to keep this up?' I have a look about me that says 'I hope I can keep this up'.

But basically I have to. And so I'm putting away the chatter about my new flat and replacing it with just getting on with it because I'm glad to be at the stage where that is all there is left to do.

The old purse-restricting mantra 'I'm saving for a flat' will be replaced with 'I've got a mortgage to pay' and my social life will officially become confined to my flat. But it is my flat, so that makes it ok.

Last Updated: 25 August 2007 8:25 AM

I particularly like the comment at the end - 'time to find out what the neighbours are like'. Might be an idea to check that out before you buy!

N.B. BTLLTD are you from Eastbourne?

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The old purse-restricting mantra 'I'm saving for a flat' will be replaced with 'I've got a mortgage to pay' and my social life will officially become confined to my flat. But it is my flat, so that makes it ok.

Up pops that old myth again. The sad reality is that it's the banks flat, until the usual 20-30 years, after which you own it. Often, after the average mew, owning is more likely a reality just before you die if you are lucky. Buying now, at the present stage in the cycle imo, is utter madness.

I wonder how many owners, look back on their lives and think how different things could have been if they had not bought a home, so were not so controlled, sucking the corporate or local gov c0ck for a steady mortgage paying income.

My Grandfather worked in a mind numbing job on the civil service hamster wheel all his life, I often thought that destroyed his soul, so I have an inkling.

What do the psychiatrists say about property obsession /fetishism ? Presumably, it's often visble in serial BTL buyers who are locked into the greed cycle.

Got me thinking about this whole house ownership fetish thing, the thought of which makes me uncomfortable. I googled 'house fetish' & came up with this interesting comment from a US blog.

http://tunguskan.blogspot.com/2007/07/house-fetish.html

House Fetish

I’ve been saying this for ages — at least since I sold my loft for a small profit after only a year and just as the market began to tank in the Twin Cities — that buying a house on the weak notion that you’re investing or on the common Realtor/Realwhore™ lie that you’re “throwing your money away on rent” is a supremely dumb idea, and now someone’s gone to the trouble of actually running the numbers.

Buy a house because you want to settle down somewhere and you like the house and the area and above all because you can easily afford it and not suffer chronic worry over the expense. I can’t see myself buying a house anytime soon and probably not until I decide I’m done with the peripatetic life, if ever, but I have seen enough people sink into financial ruin by bad decisions about housing (and having children, but that’s another rant for later).

It floors me that anyone would remotely consider buying a house now, but there’s plenty wanting to slide down the same broken-glass slope that so many others have already ridden: lie about their income, put nothing down, get a toxic option-ARM loan, move into a new shoddy McBungalow, then lose it all when the reality sets in that the number of the people in the country who have enough income to easily handle a mortgage without financial stress is depressingly small and we’re not one of them. At least mortgages aren’t flying out of bankers’ butts anymore, like they were in the past five years when anyone capable of holding a pen to mark the papers could get a mortgage.

If I do ever buy a house, it’ll be something like this http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/09/ka...a_cottage_3.php

on a little piece of land where I can grow things and let the cats out to roll in the catnip patch. Oh and I’ll have a tiny lawn for the sole purpose of yelling at kids to get off it.

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Up pops that old myth again. The sad reality is that it's the banks flat, until the usual 20-30 years, after which you own it.

[snip]

http://tunguskan.blogspot.com/2007/07/house-fetish.html

Up pops this old myth again. It is her flat, to do with as she will with very few restrictions. It's just that the bank has a lien over the asset.

Who owns a company: the shareholders, or the debt holders? If there's $1 debt and $2bn equity do you still thank that the lender owns the asset?

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Guest vicmac64
http://www.eastbourneherald.co.uk/watson/H...woes.3147459.jp

House moving woes

By Claire Watson

My excitement, stress and constant chatter about moving into my new flat just about has to come to an end this week. I'm knackered.

Having trawled properties good and bad, met estate agents helpful and not so, downsized my plans with each mortgage adviser I have met, cringed at each new house price crash prediction in the news :rolleyes: and made an unreasonable amount of trips up two flights of stairs with my belongings, I'm a home owner.

I need some kind of exorcism (and ranting in this column is useful for just that) now it's over because 'they' are right when 'they' say moving home is one of the most stressful things you can do.

I didn't buy into that willy-nilly. I honestly thought it would only be stressful if I made it stressful, that I could be all serene and that somebody would eventually call me and say 'sign this', 'pay this', 'here are your keys'.

Needless to say it doesn't work like that but as a first time buyer – one of those strange creatures alluded to in the news so often alongside the words 'risk' and 'repossession' – you don't know until you have tried it for yourself.

It was all over bar the painting 11 weeks after I had my offer accepted.

Lucky, too, because I think if it had gone on any longer I might have exploded or my colleagues, friends, family might have gagged me and shut me in a cupboard.

On the other hand, first time buyers make interesting guinea pigs.

It's like anyone who knows me can watch and see if the horror stories about struggling onto the ladder are true.

There are the major worries like not being able to afford to eat if something bad should happen to interest rates (I keep my knowledge of this simple, clearly, I don't pretend to be an expert).

Then there are

the more day-to-day things that just have to be sacrificed or put on hold for the time being, like eating out.

Enter my friends Hannah and Jo, who came over this week to make all the right noises about the flat I have been talking about for months. They are shocked to find I don't have a cooker (!) or a television (!!!).

They have a look about them that suspiciously asks 'How long do you plan to keep this up?' I have a look about me that says 'I hope I can keep this up'.

But basically I have to. And so I'm putting away the chatter about my new flat and replacing it with just getting on with it because I'm glad to be at the stage where that is all there is left to do.

The old purse-restricting mantra 'I'm saving for a flat' will be replaced with 'I've got a mortgage to pay' and my social life will officially become confined to my flat. But it is my flat, so that makes it ok.

Last Updated: 25 August 2007 8:25 AM

Well I'm sorry for poor clair - I really am - and as far as I am concerned when this crash comes she should be relieved of her debt property and agreements and those that knowingly sold her this obnoxious financial instrument should be brought to book their assets seized and a proper enquiry initiated.. Don't blame Claire or the contless others that felt they would never own a house because of the monsters that control our financial destiny.

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Agreed: Claire's a forthcoming victim, not a perpetrator. But as for the people who just happened to be born 20 years before her, had good luck with their buying decisions in the '80s and '90s and now have 10 BTL flats and are thus part of the reason why Claire's mortgage is so huge...

...see the 'String 'em up' thread in off topic!

(only joking)

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Up pops this old myth again. It is her flat, to do with as she will with very few restrictions. It's just that the bank has a lien over the asset.

Who owns a company: the shareholders, or the debt holders? If there's $1 debt and $2bn equity do you still thank that the lender owns the asset?

secured vs unsecured debt

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Up pops this old myth again. It is her flat, to do with as she will with very few restrictions. It's just that the bank has a lien over the asset.

Who owns a company: the shareholders, or the debt holders? If there's $1 debt and $2bn equity do you still thank that the lender owns the asset?

Who holds the deeds of ownership to the house?.....the bank

Who can make you homeless by repo'ing the house if you don't pay the mortgage for 3 months?....the bank

The Lenders & Vi's would rather you thought you owned it, that's part of the con......but defacto..

Edited by Saving For a Space Ship

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Up pops that old myth again. The sad reality is that it's the banks flat, until the usual 20-30 yearsafter which you own it. Often, after the average mew, owning is more likely a reality just before you die if you are lucky. Buying now, at the present stage in the cycle imo, is utter madness.

The average mortgage is now c. £96K. Do you honestly think it takes 20-30 years to pay that off?

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The average mortgage is now c. £96K. Do you honestly think it takes 20-30 years to pay that off?

I thought we were talking about people like Claire who are buying now, not 'average' mortgages. Then theorising on what they may face in the future. How about factoring in an estimate of the average mew I mentioned.

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I thought we were talking about people like Claire who are buying now, not 'average' mortgages. Then theorising on what they may face in the future. How about factoring in an estimate of the average mew I mentioned.

But would most people already reading on this site act like Claire, and max out on borrowing? Would they then, given the chance, MEW to the max? I can appreciate that given the context of the original article it's easy to start firing shots. But what happens when she hooks up with someone and they start contributing? Or heaven forbid she's skint because she's overpaying?

'Saving', having read a great many of your previous posts I appreciate what you have to say but would you mind me asking is you have STR? Or not bought at all waiting for a HPC?

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Who holds the deeds of ownership to the house?.....the bank

Who can make you homeless by repo'ing the house if you don't pay the mortgage for 3 months?....the bank

The Lenders & Vi's would rather you thought you owned it, that's part of the con......but defacto..

You control the asset. Where the deeds sit is irrelevant. You own the asset.

It doesn't matter if debt is secured over your house or if you have unsecured debt. If you don't fulfil your obligations regarding either, eventually your house and other assets will be liquidated to pay off any charge. Securitised debt just sorts out the pecking order in the cash waterfall. Doesn't matter if you have a mortgage or if after a crash you bought and own the house outright: it'll be sold.

By your logic, you never own anything. Anything can be taken from you if you fail to honour your obligations for whatever reason.

Who can take you liberty if you don't pay your council tax? The government. Does that mean they own you?

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You control the asset. Where the deeds sit is irrelevant. You own the asset.

It doesn't matter if debt is secured over your house or if you have unsecured debt. If you don't fulfil your obligations regarding either, eventually your house and other assets will be liquidated to pay off any charge. Securitised debt just sorts out the pecking order in the cash waterfall. Doesn't matter if you have a mortgage or if after a crash you bought and own the house outright: it'll be sold.

By your logic, you never own anything. Anything can be taken from you if you fail to honour your obligations for whatever reason.

Who can take you liberty if you don't pay your council tax? The government. Does that mean they own you?

On reflection, perhaps I have overstepped the mark here with generalising the point, and welcome more comment .

Those using the phrase 'it's my flat' when there are regular monthly instalments left to pay every month for 20-30 yrs (or else) makes me see red, To me 'owning' means security, ie. it cannot be taken away.

Others on hpc use the term 'renting from the bank' to refer to interest only mortgages mainly, but to me if a person is stretched to the limit financially like Claire it does not seem much different.

Technically you are correct, but I did say 'defacto', (apologies for the bad spelling) which as I'm sure you are aware means

"expression that means "in fact" or "in practice" but not spelled out by law.

It is commonly used in contrast to de jure (which means "by law") when referring to matters of law, governance, or technique (such as standards), that are found in the common experience as created or developed without or against a regulation.

When discussing a legal situation, de jure designates lawfully what the law says, while de facto designates action of what happens in practice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto.

You say "If you don't fulfil your obligations regarding either, eventually your house and other assets will be liquidated to pay off any charge."

As discussed on 'Beat the baliff' type threads, increasingly baliffs will not take personal effects, due to the China effect decreasing value raised at a repo auction. Disposal liability of your unsold electronic goods from the EU WEEE (waste electronic) directive mean these goods are particularly less likely to be repo'd.

Whereas with a house in a falling market, from hpc anecdotes in the last uk house crash, a bank is more likely to repo as quickly as they can, as it's better to get £150K for a house now than 120K in a few months time when prices have fallen as the herd of panicked sellers stampede for the gate.

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The old purse-restricting mantra 'I'm saving for a flat' will be replaced with 'I've got a mortgage to pay' and my social life will officially become confined to my flat.

And so another £XXX doesn'tgo into the local economy as a result.

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But would most people already reading on this site act like Claire, and max out on borrowing? Would they then, given the chance, MEW to the max? I can appreciate that given the context of the original article it's easy to start firing shots. But what happens when she hooks up with someone and they start contributing? Or heaven forbid she's skint because she's overpaying?

'Saving', having read a great many of your previous posts I appreciate what you have to say but would you mind me asking is you have STR? Or not bought at all waiting for a HPC?

Hi Savo, no I am not an STR.

My income is not currently high enough or secure enough to buy a property imo, even after a biggish crash. I've mentioned my interest in 'container architecture' previously, and am exploring renting land for 5 years and building a temporary home /workshop on it, after whic time prices should have come way down. http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_container_architecture

More recently, as the economic picture looks likely to swing to severe economic recession or depression, I have questioned more the whole concept of house ownership and being able to find the loan repayments in very tough times, unless you have a big wedge.

I wish there to be a crash to restore more balance to the economic system, which looks like it has swung so far as to upset the whole apple cart. The use of resources will be reduced in recession, which is another major concern of mine.

Fortuneately, one job I do is look after old buildings as a caretaker / house sitter so I don't pay rent at present, which allows me to spent longer on hpc etc than others and do more low income 'ethical' jobs.

In a slowdown this is something other hpc'ers should investigate as empty property will increase & crime / squatting will soar also. Try googling 'house sitting' or 'caretaking' for those interested.

It is often no less secure than renting, but it is male doninated (for obvious security reasons) & kids are not allowed, but live in girlfriends wives often are. It is not for everyone.

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On reflection, perhaps I have overstepped the mark here with generalising the point, and welcome more comment .

Those using the phrase 'it's my flat' when there are regular monthly instalments left to pay every month for 20-30 yrs (or else) makes me see red, To me 'owning' means security, ie. it cannot be taken away.

Others on hpc use the term 'renting from the bank' to refer to interest only mortgages mainly, but to me if a person is stretched to the limit financially like Claire it does not seem much different.

Technically you are correct, but I did say 'defacto', (apologies for the bad spelling) which as I'm sure you are aware means

"expression that means "in fact" or "in practice" but not spelled out by law.

It is commonly used in contrast to de jure (which means "by law") when referring to matters of law, governance, or technique (such as standards), that are found in the common experience as created or developed without or against a regulation.

When discussing a legal situation, de jure designates lawfully what the law says, while de facto designates action of what happens in practice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto.

You say "If you don't fulfil your obligations regarding either, eventually your house and other assets will be liquidated to pay off any charge."

As discussed on 'Beat the baliff' type threads, increasingly baliffs will not take personal effects, due to the China effect decreasing value raised at a repo auction. Disposal liability of your unsold electronic goods from the EU WEEE (waste electronic) directive mean these goods are particularly less likely to be repo'd.

Whereas with a house in a falling market, from hpc anecdotes in the last uk house crash, a bank is more likely to repo as quickly as they can, as it's better to get £150K for a house now than 120K in a few months time when prices have fallen as the herd of panicked sellers stampede for the gate.

Please, not death by Wiki! ;)

That being said, it makes a nive change to get a reply on this forum which takes another's point into account!

IMHO, the reality is, if you have anything of significant value, it will be taken. They may not take your 10 year old telly, but the car will go. Ironically, your house is much less likely to go these days. Banks have learned that all that brand equity they accrued from expensive advertising campaigns over years can be destroyed overnight by one item featuring a repossessed family and the tag line " This family's home is now being sold for a fraction of its market value", even if that is not true. It discourager les autres rather too much, I think.

Agreed - in a sale or liquidation scenario, you as equity holder rank way below the secured creditor, but in the meantime, just like a Berkshire Hathaway shareholder, you enjoy the benefits of ownership until the you know what hits the fan.

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I've been lurking in the shadows and this poor girl's impending plight has finally nudged me to post ---I've got this horrible feeling of deja vu.

It reminds me so much of when, in our mid twenties, we bought a flat at what turned out to be the peak of the market in 1989. Why? Lots of well meaning older folk telling us renting was dead money, we couldn't go wrong by putting my hard-earned cash in bricks and mortar etc etc.

We didn't overstretch ourselves, only borrowed £50k (it seemed a lot back then but was only x2 our joint salary!) -- the market started to drop within minutes of me walking over the threshold. To add insult to injury, interest rates soared to 15%. I think our monthly payments started out at around £365 and at their highest point were £575. And just a couple of years later it was worth......£30k tops.

The development (about 10 years old at the time) went to the dogs as people handed back the keys, got repossessed or did a moonlight flit (this happened quite a lot at the time, wonder if we'll see that phenomenon again?). And so.....the BTLs moved in. We knew that one day we'd recover and get another mortgage, so we tried to sit it out. Prices stayed in the doldrums for what seemed like forever.

The very property you have saved for, tiled and painted comes to represent a massive millstone of misery round your neck. There is no joy in home 'owning' when you are in negative equity. Especially in a one-bed flat on a development where every other first time buyer has done a bunk. By now, your neighbours are all DSS (as it was then) tenants who stay at home all day playing loud music. Soon the once pristine cul de sac boasted peeling doors, overgrown gardens and rusting cars in the 'allocated parking spaces.' Utterly depressing. We got to the point when I'd have rather slept in the office than gone home. And this was no grim city but a market town in the South West commuter belt.

Couldn't face selling and making a £20k loss. So what did we do? We 'let to rent' :rolleyes: yep, you get so horrified by your mess, you let it out to someone else in a different sort of dire straits. By this time, interest rates have fallen and the rent almost covers the mortgage. We found a real bargain of a cottage to rent in the middle of nowhere. It was huge, delightful and affordable.

Sadly there isn't a happy ending to this story but I'm happy to share it as a salutary tale to anyone who gets caught in the crash that most of us can see thundering towards us.

We sold the flat to a BTL at the point where we broke even when prices started to recover. Of course, no one but a canny BTL wanted to buy a one-bed flat at that point as three-bed homes were affordable for most people on an average joint wage. We bailed out before the development became a total no go zone and the flat needed an entire refit. On reflection, we should of course have held out longer.

Then came our 2nd mistake: We were so happy renting, we PUT OFF plans to buy another house :huh: Thought we'd get round to it, saved up a deposit and issued a deadline of my 40th.

Three years before I got there, I managed to get cancer, and since then no one seems to want to lend me any money :P - even if I could afford or wanted to pay the ridiculous prices being asked for homes in my part of the world. What was a reasonable deposit in 2002 probably wouldnt buy a doorknob now.

We've had to move to a much more expensive area due to work changes and our rent has doubled, so buying again - even as and when i get the magic all clear - probably wont happen unless prices fall some way. Both the houses I have rented have been on farms. They will never come to the market and if they did, I could never afford them. I'm 'cheating' by living in a very nice area in a property I couldn't afford otherwise. But I do worry about what I'll be able to afford to rent when I'm a pensioner, cos I wont be a rich one, that's for sure. That's the ONLY reason I would consider buying again.

The moral of my numerous mistakes? DON'T be rushed into buying, the current prices are not sustainable. Life is for living. You can't take it with you (and other well-worn cliches.) If you MUST buy now, for God's sake don't buy a flat, especially one on a modern/new development. It'll be hell to shift when prices drop and people can get so much more for their money. If you do get caught in the crash, 'letting to rent' is a good way of moving on when you can't take the sight of your own 4 walls any longer. But tell your lender. And make sure you buy again as soon as you sell your original property.

Sorry for the long first post. I appreciate my circumstances are highly unlikely to match anyone else's. But those of us who lived through the last crash can see something similar happening to people like Claire. In a year or two's time when her flat is worth considerably less than she's paid for it, it will have become her prison. And I will feel truly sorry for her. IMHO too much pressure to buy from the likes of Kirsty, Phil, Sarah and Kevin has fuelled this latest boom. Will Location x 3 still be on air in two years' time? I doubt it.

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Excellent post, fortunately was old enough to remember the last crash and my parents had a mortgage double digit thousands ish so never became a dinning table subject. 50k down to 30k doesn't feel that much now, just imagine people with 150k plus mortages.

The annoying thing about location x3 is the prices always seem really reasonable at the time of showing the programmes.

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Guest Bart of Darkness
Up pops this old myth again. It is her flat, to do with as she will with very few restrictions.

One of those few restrictions being that she keeps paying the mortgage to......the bank.

The average mortgage is now c. £96K.

Where? In the Outer Hebrides?

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