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OzzMosiz

11 Year Old Boy Shot Dead

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Guest AuntJess
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6959562.stm

10 years jail sentence for anyone caught with a gun, regardless of age would be a good deterrent!

There used to be a kind of ruling for some offences that one could go straight to jail. I think anyone carrying an offensive weapon of any kind should be whizzed of to jail - smartish. 6 months or £5000 fine. This includes tools - like screwdrivers etc. - carried by non-tradesmen. <_<

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You'd be more effective banning certain musical genres.

Self defense is a fundamental human right. Law abiding citizens should be allowed to own and carry guns.

We wouldn't have teenage gangs kicking adults to death then.

Police need to enforce the current law not get new powers.

Also importing ethnics who have a culture that glorifies murder is a thoroughly bad idea.

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Guest d23
You'd be more effective banning certain musical genres.

Self defense is a fundamental human right. Law abiding citizens should be allowed to own and carry guns.

We wouldn't have teenage gangs kicking adults to death then.

Police need to enforce the current law not get new powers.

Also importing ethnics who have a culture that glorifies murder is a thoroughly bad idea.

america's lax gun laws have certainly led to a drop in crime over there; no teenage gangs kicking adults to death over there (they're much more likely to just shoot them) :rolleyes:

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I think it's OK for older people that have no criminal record to have a gun at home or are we saying that our goverment does not trust it's people.

It's fine for police officer to set dogs on people and to ram them on house back but some of the people that are subjected to this treatment are peaceful protestors and once the public gives up all rights to defend itself then it a red light to the police state we are heading towards.

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Thing is, we get this knee jerk reaction going on - as evidenced here.

We know nothing about the back story.

This kid _may_ have been one of the troublemakers, and the shooter _could_ have been a vigilante.

We hear about people being stabbed, shot or kicked to death. Yet how many of these have, as I say, a back story involving violence or abuse the other way?

For instance a notionally absurd case: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?i...p;in_page_id=34

'Boy in court for throwing sausage' - yet at the end he has been cautioned 3 times already - about abuse towards his 74 year old neighbour.

Many other examples of this abound; we only get a fraction of the story - the part that gets our back up, makes us indignant - and want to buy the story.

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I think anyone carrying an offensive weapon of any kind should be whizzed of to jail - smartish. 6 months or £5000 fine. This includes tools - like screwdrivers etc. - carried by non-tradesmen.

That wouldn't work. What about the screwdrivers and socket set I keep in my car in case they're needed for roadside repairs? What if a friend wants to borrow said socket set and I walk across town with it to lend it to him/her? In the case of objects which have legitimate uses as well as offensive ones, you'd have to prove that they were being carried for offensive purposes (potential or actual) before applying such a law.

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Ah, but people are becoming vocally in support of a Police State. I have seen several 'letters to the ed' recently stating that explicitly.

In which case you don't need to be innocent or guilty by proof, just by hunch...

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All I can say is a life for a life,not put them in the nick and give them degrees,this country is pure shite :angry:

A back clash is what is needed now

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america's lax gun laws have certainly led to a drop in crime over there; no teenage gangs kicking adults to death over there (they're much more likely to just shoot them) :rolleyes:

Well the victim is dead either way. :rolleyes: At least if the victim can legally own a carry a gun they can shoot back.

Why look at the worse case? Even in America areas of high gun ownership have fewer murders, fewer muggings and fewer house break ins. Areas where gun ownership is mandatory suffer less crime than areas that aren't. The worse crime occurs in states that have tried to restrict gun ownership and banned concealed carry.

FACT: Criminals like helpless victims

FACT: Criminals fear armed citizens far more than the police

FACT: Where guns are illegal only criminals carry guns

Laws against gun ownership only disarm victims the criminals carry on regardless.

In any event I'd rather look at say Switzerland or Canada. High gun ownership low level of violent crime.

If guns are seen as everyday objects which are available to the law abiding they become less atractive and lose their mystique.

Since the gun laws were changed shootings have increased.

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I think it's OK for older people that have no criminal record to have a gun at home or are we saying that our goverment does not trust it's people.

It's fine for police officer to set dogs on people and to ram them on house back but some of the people that are subjected to this treatment are peaceful protestors and once the public gives up all rights to defend itself then it a red light to the police state we are heading towards.

Spot on Justice. The government should fear the people not the other way around. An armed citizenry is the best safeguard against tyranical government.

All authoritarian governments try to disarm their citizenry and take away their right to self defence.

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That wouldn't work. What about the screwdrivers and socket set I keep in my car in case they're needed for roadside repairs? What if a friend wants to borrow said socket set and I walk across town with it to lend it to him/her? In the case of objects which have legitimate uses as well as offensive ones, you'd have to prove that they were being carried for offensive purposes (potential or actual) before applying such a law.

Exactly. As the law stands, you either have an offensive weapon that is "made" it an asp or knuckle dusters or 6" lock knife which you just cant carry around in any case, and then you can also be done for having, well, just about anything that could be used as a weapon if you cant provide a reasonable excuse for having it. For example, walking around a golf course with a 4-iron is perfectly legal. Walking around the town centre at 11pm with 10 pints of stella on board, singing "I'm gonna f"£$ing kill yers" while carrying a 4-iron is likely to get you arrested.

Same with "going equipped". An AA patrol man with a tool for jimmying car doors is fine. A 17 year old unemployed heroin addict with the same is also liable to have his collar felt.

When it comes to possesion of illegal firearms -- thats attempted murder as far as I'm concerned. 25 years minimum.

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Spot on Justice. The government should fear the people not the other way around. An armed citizenry is the best safeguard against tyranical government.

All authoritarian governments try to disarm their citizenry and take away their right to self defence.

Worked really well in Afghanistan didnt it?

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Guest AuntJess

Ain't it great that folk like us are sitting round trying to think of ways of making the country safe? Wonder if those paid to do it are doing the same?

Off topic: Anyone heard about the "new" idea charging people to take away their garbage in return for lower Community Charges.

Who TF thought that one up? As soon as I heard it I thought....

Fly tipping...anyone? :blink::ph34r:

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Hello SC,

Are talking about laying down your life for a religious cause here?

Not necessarily. Many parts of the world have cultures in which violence is normal or in which violence escalates to levels we aren't used to.

Where I grew up gun ownership was common but violence was very low. Any fight that occured was settled with a fist and you didn't kick a man when he was down.

In some parts of the world a fight invariably involves a gun.

Some parts of the world family honour dictates that if your cousin is killed by a member of another family you must kill a member of that family (even if they had nothing to do with it).

Now if somebody steps on my toes on a dance floor being British I'd probably aplogize for having my toes stepped on. People from a different culture might throw a bottle of acid in the offenders face for not showing "Respec'".

If we Import people from violent cultures we shouldn't be suprised if act out their own cultural norms here.

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Worked really well in Afghanistan didnt it?

What did?

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Guest d23
Some parts of the world family honour dictates that if your cousin is killed by a member of another family you must kill a member of that family (even if they had nothing to do with it).

In some parts of the world the government punishes murderers by gassing them to death

good thing this country is more civilized than that.

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Exactly. As the law stands, you either have an offensive weapon that is "made" it an asp or knuckle dusters or 6" lock knife which you just cant carry around in any case, and then you can also be done for having, well, just about anything that could be used as a weapon if you cant provide a reasonable excuse for having it. For example, walking around a golf course with a 4-iron is perfectly legal. Walking around the town centre at 11pm with 10 pints of stella on board, singing "I'm gonna f"£$ing kill yers" while carrying a 4-iron is likely to get you arrested.

Same with "going equipped". An AA patrol man with a tool for jimmying car doors is fine. A 17 year old unemployed heroin addict with the same is also liable to have his collar felt.

When it comes to possesion of illegal firearms -- thats attempted murder as far as I'm concerned. 25 years minimum.

We haven't got the prison places to hold everybody who gets caught with a gun for 25 years.

Current law is I think 5 year min tariff for illegal handgun possession. Problem is criminals aren't deterred because the chance of being caught is so low. Gang members aren't deterred because they fear attack by other gangs more than the small chance of being stopped and searched by the police. These gangs are so unafraid of the police that they openly pose with their guns on their own websites.

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In some parts of the world the government punishes murderers by gassing them to death

good thing this country is more civilized than that.

Sorry D I don't quite see the point you are making there?

One is an innocent person being murdered because of what another family member is aledged to have done.

The other is a person being killed because of what they did after a due legal process, investigation, trial, numerous appeals.

Even you can see the difference there surely.

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What did?

Well, pretty much everyone in Afghanistan has an assault rifle and that didnt stop them being ruled by one of the most facist, mysogynistic and oppresive regimes in history. Same for most middle-eastern 5h!t holes.

And if you think we have a police state here - look at the US. Ever heard of the patriot act? Americans have no right to privacy whatsoever from their government- they can now have their phones tapped without any legal oversight. Meanwhile their police start a'shootin at anyone who doesnt do exactly as they say. And the US has loooootts more guns than we have.

I'm sorry but drawing a correlation being widespread gun-ownership and crime/murder/government oppresion/etc... just doesnt stand up to scrutiny either way you look at it.

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Well, pretty much everyone in Afghanistan has an assault rifle and that didnt stop them being ruled by one of the most facist, mysogynistic and oppresive regimes in history. Same for most middle-eastern 5h!t holes.

And if you think we have a police state here - look at the US. Ever heard of the patriot act? Americans have no right to privacy whatsoever from their government- they can now have their phones tapped without any legal oversight. Meanwhile their police start a'shootin at anyone who doesnt do exactly as they say. And the US has loooootts more guns than we have.

I'm sorry but drawing a correlation being widespread gun-ownership and crime/murder/government oppresion/etc... just doesnt stand up to scrutiny either way you look at it.

Well unfortunately they have a facsist, mysogynistic, oppresive culture to start with. The Taliban just took it to it's logical conclusion.

Perhaps you could try taking guns off Afghans and see what happens? At least any of the minorities persecuted by the Taliban had a chance of taking some Talibs with them. You'd rather they went like lambs to be slaughtered???

The more level the killing field the better IMHO.

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Well unfortunately they have a facsist, mysogynistic, oppresive culture to start with. The Taliban just took it to it's logical conclusion.

But hang on, arent guns supposed to stop that kind of thing from happening full stop? At least thats what you are claiming. The Afghans were heavily armed since before the British first went there in the early 1800s. They have been heavily armed ever since. How exactly have all these arms stopped oppresion in Afghanistan.

You'd rather they went like lambs to be slaughtered???

Thats exactly what did happen, loadsaAK47s not withstanding.

PS - care to answer my point about the police state in the US, loadsaguns notwithstanding?

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But hang on, arent guns supposed to stop that kind of thing from happening full stop? At least thats what you are claiming. The Afghans were heavily armed since before the British first went there in the early 1800s. They have been heavily armed ever since. How exactly have all these arms stopped oppresion in Afghanistan.

Not full stop but they certainly make the job of oppression more difficult.

The fact that the Afghans were heavily armed did make the job of would be conquerers more difficult. In fact we were defeated if my history is correct.

Clearly they won't stop oppresion if your culture is oppresive. Guns won't make primitive Muslim tribesmen suddenly become Lib DEm voters

Thats exactly what did happen, loadsaAK47s not withstanding.
Err no. The Northern Aliiance was able to retain a foothold in the Country because they could call on armed men.
PS - care to answer my point about the police state in the US, loadsaguns notwithstanding?

Simple. The US is not a police state. It's one of the most free countries on earth. And it has an armed citizenry. Coincidence? I think not.

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