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Si1

Police Make Mortgage Fraud Arrests In The Uk

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http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle2283035.ece

"BRITISH lenders are set to lose millions of pounds on fraudulent mortgages, many of them sub-prime, in the first sign that the home-loan crisis in America could be echoed in the UK."

...

"Alliance & Leicester (A&L) has since reined in its lending on all new-build developments across Britain amid fears that the fraud could be the tip of the iceberg."

...

"This may even be facilitating a false market in that the recorded sale prices of properties on a development are higher than the real prices paid and therefore the true value of the properties."

I'm amazed how fast this crisis is kicking off. I did not wish for what's coming. The bulls did, I wished for a correction several years ago which would have been much less unpleasant than what seems to be about to hit us.

edit: punctuation

Edited by Si1

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Blinking heck! :blink::ph34r::blink:

BANG! Trigger pulled, The emperor's got no clothes on!

Surely, this has to be it doesn't it? An admission that builders and lenders have ramped up prices to a level where people cannot aford to repay.

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Guest Bart of Darkness
The Metropolitan Police is investigating the fraud and has made 11 arrests, but the lenders do not expect to get all their money back.

NOW they take an interest (Eric Pebble will know only too well what I mean).

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Complete joke. I knew several people with fraudulent self-cert mortgages years back as did many on here.

The BBC produced a documentary in, I think, 2003 exposing the massive mortgage fraud taking place and how some London estate agents were selling almost everything to people with self-cert mortgages.

Why do the media portray the sub-prime meltdown as some bolt from the blue?

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Solicitors have also warned of a rise in mortgage fraud as the property market slows down, as happened in the early 1990s.

A spokesman for the Solicitors Regulation Authority said: “If there is a property downturn, significant new levels of mortgage fraud could recur. Loans are being obtained based on heavily discounted prices that are not disclosed to lenders and are disguised by cashback schemes and transactions structured to give lenders misleading information.

“This may even be facilitating a false market in that the recorded sale prices of properties on a development are higher than the real prices paid and therefore the true value of the properties.”

Alliance & Leicester (A&L) has since reined in its lending on all new-build developments across Britain amid fears that the fraud could be the tip of the iceberg.

:blink:

I suppose next comes the crisis of confidence in the market.

Edited by Ash4781

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http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle2283035.ece

"Alliance & Leicester (A&L) has since reined in its lending on all new-build developments across Britain amid fears that the fraud could be the tip of the iceberg."

...

"This may even be facilitating a false market in that the recorded sale prices of properties on a development are higher than the real prices paid and therefore the true value of the properties."

WOW!!! (thats bad great news :ph34r::ph34r:

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Complete joke. I knew several people with fraudulent self-cert mortgages years back as did many on here.

The BBC produced a documentary in, I think, 2003 exposing the massive mortgage fraud taking place and how some London estate agents were selling almost everything to people with self-cert mortgages.

Why do the media portray the sub-prime meltdown as some bolt from the blue?

Hi there Crashed out - and all.... Yes the BBC Money Programme did do a rather amazing documentary on Mortgage Fraud in 2003 - as many on this site know, I hope; I have tried to bring this to the attention of as many as possible as many of you know only too well... The documentary was shown again early 2004 -- and many on this site know I feel very strongly indeed on this.

Go here and read VERY carefully; ---- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3222053.stm

and make sure you click on "watch and listen" too.

Also - read this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressrele..._mortgage.shtml - a good summary.

I definitely believe the VI's have done all they can to try and cover all this up --- and notably since that documentary many Lenders have just blithely allowed (milions of?) people to just borrow 8, 9, 10, 11 x "salary" ........ I certainly know scores and scores of people who have been encouraged to lie about thier income - and take out ridiculous mortgages as if it's a game of monopoly...... This is all a huge scandal waiting to break IMHO.

JUST THINK about the implications of all this over the last few years. It provides a real clue as to why property "prices" have risen so much in the last 6-8 years+. It also shows how this enormous fraud has affected so many people's lives - they have had to take out FAR bigger mortgages in order to pay the "price" which has been set FAR FAR higher by this endemic Mortgage Fraud in every corner of the UK.

THIS FRAUD HAS DRIVEN PRCES UP EVERYWHERE - HUGELY. Think about this!!!.... How it has driven up prices MASSIVELY and ARTIFICIALLY in every street, town, village and city right accros the UK......... YES - SIT BACK AND THINK ABOUT THIS...

And they try and tell us there is no "sub-prime" problem here in the UK. It's sick! :P:lol::unsure:

Edited by eric pebble

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You know reading this thread is very convincing. I always knew the house prices were too expensive but couldn't really see a trigger to see them drop. Truth is it will probably be many things. But this essentially suggests the prices are already way too high and the actual amount lenders are happy to lend is a lot lower (ie 3-4x salary), when the fall out of this credit crunch trickles into mortgage lending in the UK which it looks like is happening people will be screwed. This boom has tarted with the lenders and will finish with them too. Anybody wanting a new mortgage a) will not want a massive leverage because prices aren’t rising so it's not a great bet, B) wont be able to get massive leverage. Re-mortgaging will be very painful for people coming out of fixed rate mortgages and don’t forget all those already on variable. I'm so convinced I may STR, even with 2 kids and one on the way, however although I feel this will take some time to really damage the market I cant see me shifting the house in the current market, are any selling?

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Four mortgage firms could see an estimated £40m wiped out after lending to bogus borrowers on off-plan apartments in Thamesmead, south London, built by Persimmon, the listed property company.

The firms involved are believed to be Alliance & Leicester, one of the country’s top ten lenders; GMAC-RFC, part of the American giant; Platform, the sub-prime arm of Britannia building society; and Rooftop, part of Bear Stearns, which has already been hit hard by the failure of two of its hedge funds.

Bear Sterns again. They're not having a very good month, are they?

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Bear Sterns again. They're not having a very good month, are they?

They might do better if they changed their name to Bull Sterns or Neither Sterns.

Or " Stearns" ;)

Edited by redalert

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Who would be in trouble with the law? the VI's for certain as they encouraged fraud, but couldn't homebuyers claim ignorance? i know that sounds stupid- but they'll do whatever they can to keep their homes and avoid jail-crikey if all these home buyers are sent to jail we could have a very big problem housing these new criminals :lol:

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I remeber when all this mortgage fraud was discovered in 03 and that's when I started thinking that perhaps we were heading for a crash... and isn't that why self-cert mortgages were scrapped a couple of years ago? Presumably a lot of the self-certs were based on fixed rates that are coming to and end now so we should see lots more distressed buyers very soon. That is when the downturn will really start...

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THIS FRAUD HAS DRIVEN PRCES UP EVERYWHERE - HUGELY. Think about this!!!.... How it has driven up prices MASSIVELY -- and ARTIFICIALLY - in every street, town, village and city right accros the UK......... YES - SIT BACK AND THINK ABOUT THIS...

And they try and tell us there is no "sub-prime" problem here in the UK. It's sick! :P:lol::unsure:

I first took notice of this practice in 2003 following the BBC documentaries.

As far as I was concerned my own little sums showed me that prices should have peaked, but people were still buying.

It was a mixture of fraudulent mortgages and artifiically lowered interest rates (Thanks Lord Edward George)

I approached the Police and the FSA with the prevalent and clear evidence that:

1/3rd of all mortgages had no income verification

1/5th of all outstanding mortgage debt was also seld cert.

Niether took any notice, I begged them to do their jobs and then I instructed them then...

Eventually I gave up.

The sub-prime market in the UK is in all probability most of it....

Police and FSA, lazy scum (serious fraud squad)

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I was offered a self cert by Kensington mortgages, I have a uk company that turns over 22,000 pounds... even though I dont work in the UK. Based on offering my charted accounts address I lied and said I made 60,000 pounds just to see what I could get. Sure enough I could borrow 300,000 with a 15% equity in the property. I declined the mortgage.......But its still easy to do I am sure..

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I was offered a self cert by Kensington mortgages, I have a uk company that turns over 22,000 pounds... even though I dont work in the UK. Based on offering my charted accounts address I lied and said I made 60,000 pounds just to see what I could get. Sure enough I could borrow 300,000 with a 15% equity in the property. I declined the mortgage.......But its still easy to do I am sure..

I am actually self employed and my turnover is very healthy when the costs are taken into account.

(Pie... and ..... uhm..... I love pie, not that fat either... you see I ration myself..... and I digress...)

So a self cert would be the way to go.

But self cert means they ask you how much you have and you are not meant to lie.

as that would be FRAUD...

Now as this fraud will be over £100,000,000,000 (a very conservative estimate if you through in the IO "I ahve a repayment vehicle honest guv" mortgages) The serious fraud squad will be

"Crikey, this is the biggest fraud the world has ever seen, best we look into it and not ignore it"

Or will they? ;)

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I am actually self employed and my turnover is very healthy when the costs are taken into account.

(Pie... and ..... uhm..... I love pie, not that fat either... you see I ration myself..... and I digress...)

So a self cert would be the way to go.

But self cert means they ask you how much you have and you are not meant to lie.

as that would be FRAUD...

Now as this fraud will be over £100,000,000,000 (a very conservative estimate if you through in the IO "I ahve a repayment vehicle honest guv" mortgages) The serious fraud squad will be

"Crikey, this is the biggest fraud the world has ever seen, best we look into it and not ignore it"

Or will they? ;)

I actually felt encouraged to lie..

Who checks, who cares, everyone has been lying for years, don't worry..

As easy as getting a credit card...

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The credit rating agencies should also be held responsible. The banks didnt care too much who they lent money to because the debt was given a high rating. They knew they could sell it to (i.e. steal from) our pension funds etc.

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If people are checking what people really earned the whole HPI merry go round would have coughed to a halt years ago.

Banks don't check because each mortgage debt is sliced, diced and sold onto other financial institutions who by this time have no idea who's borrowed what on what terms.

A nifty financial solution designed to reward greed.

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If people are checking what people really earned the whole HPI merry go round would have coughed to a halt years ago.

Banks don't check because each mortgage debt is sliced, diced and sold onto other financial institutions who by this time have no idea who's borrowed what on what terms.

A nifty financial solution designed to reward greed.

Yes -- And almost certainly The World's Greatest Ever Pyramid Selling Scam --- and probably one of the Greatest Frauds of All Time.

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Loans are being obtained based on heavily discounted prices that are not disclosed to lenders and are disguised by cashback schemes and transactions structured to give lenders misleading information.

"Cashback" has been the norm in many new build developments. I've made this point before as the land registry shows the sale price at the "face value" of the sale and doesn't take into account the "cashback". This is a fraud in itself to my mind as it misrepresents the price paid to the next buyer.

The massive fraud endemic in the property market has had a massively corrosive effect on public morality.

The lack of action against Peter Mandelson on account of his fraudulent mortgage application gave a green light to those who thought "everybody's doing it so why can't I".

Lets hope all those who have commited fraud are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - particularly those mortgage advisors who encouraged applicants to lie.

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"Cashback" has been the norm in many new build developments. I've made this point before as the land registry shows the sale price at the "face value" of the sale and doesn't take into account the "cashback". This is a fraud in itself to my mind as it misrepresents the price paid to the next buyer.

The massive fraud endemic in the property market has had a massively corrosive effect on public morality.

The lack of action against Peter Mandelson on account of his fraudulent mortgage application gave a green light to those who thought "everybody's doing it so why can't I".

Lets hope all those who have commited fraud are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law - particularly those mortgage advisors who encouraged applicants to lie.

It's really shocking. My git instinct is that those figures are just not true.

And -- countless millions of people are borrowing against the hyped up "value" of their properties - Mortgage "Eqity Release" - another huge spiral based on falsehoods.... it really is like a house of cards --- waiting to collapse ina most spectacular way........ I feel it in my bones -- it is going to be very, very, very serious....

Edited by eric pebble

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....and this could've all been avoided by SIMPLY the banks saying "we would like to see your wage slips for the past 6 months"

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