Us And Uk Attack China?

[ebob]

Horse.

Shit.

Much of the software from big companies, HP, IBM, SUN, Microsoft, Unisys, CAP Gemini, EDS.............................................................................

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comes from India.

So now we have crap coming Chindia and the Western world.

Hope this answers your question.

Ebob

[mobeyone]

Very worrying to say the least.. and it is "suprising" that all this is happening now.. but then again you could see this brewing with the amount of trade coming out of China, just goes to show how stupid the US really is by offshoring so much production for saving costs and making profits.

Now, If the US was to mount an attack on China aswell as provoke a confrontation in Iran not forgetting the f*ck ups in Afghanistan and Iraq, surly this is going to lead to more instability? globally and will hurt us more in the long run?

[davidg]

the Chinese have started off making the crap things and are rapidly moving up the food chain - bet you Rover cars work better now we're not making them!

I wouldn't bet on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F06LjugtIUo

[LargelyIgnorant]

This thread could have been from 20 years ago with 'China' substituted for 'Japan'

Quality Assurance, Kaizen, etc are easy to adopt.

Now: http://hondajet.honda.com

[Doctor Gloom]

You will find that most of the components of your chinese build were sourced from Tiawan. I have an engineering background and worked for four years in China. Engineering capital of the world ? I do love your sense of humour.

A hifi just breaks down after a while, wherest an aircraft cannot simpley pull over and the AA called to sort it. Hence the reason why the chinese don't built aircrafts or components, the quality and quality control just isn't there.

[Doctor Gloom]

China started making crap fifty years ago and is still making crap. The chinese are only able to copy. They cannot grasp the concept of true engineering and never have been able to. I worked in China for many years. Very few nations possess true engineering skill which is only available after decades of experience. These include Germany ,USA, and the UK. Countries like India and China will never have it. They will only ever make crap for western consumers. Does anyone know of a quality chinese product that was designed ,engineered and built in China ? Just because it looks like duck and walks like duck does not mean it is duck. (old chinese proverb)

Totally agree, I know of a local firm who sent out their flat laminate carbon fibre contracts to China and now are regretting their decision, they cannot get it right, advanced composites have been produced in this country for over 30 years, and there's China who struggle with flat lay-up. It must be remembered that Rover Longbridge will have British engineers at the helm rather than Chinese. Like Daft Git says, if it says made in China on the label it doesn't mean it was built by one.

[Doctor Gloom]

Some crap ? everything made in China is crap. Would you fly in a plane made from chinese components ? neither would anyone else. Ok , I suppose chinese socks are value for money.

Being an aerospace trained apprentice, through to carbon fibre layup and metal details fabrication now onto Team Leader. I can say that if China was capable of making a passenger plane is would be absolutely dreadful. We were building stuff 50 years ago which the Chinese couldn't scrape together today. None of the components today come from China but from advanced countries such as USA and Germany. That situation will not change.

[mikthe20]

That situation will not change.

It is precisely that sort of complacency that led to the decimation of British industry, particularly aerospace. There is no reason why the Chinese cannot require the skills over time to build aircraft or other high technology products to a high standard. IIRC they are joint venturing to assembled Boeings and Airbus in China, they have their own space and aircraft companies with big funding, most western car companies have plants there, and a Chinese company bought the IBM PC business. We have to keep moving as they catch up and hoepfully they'll be happy with the mass volume manufacturing, but they can't simply be dismissed.

[symo]

US has the worst engineers I've had the misfortune to deal with. No there are not many design engineers in China YET! Most of the worlds manufacturing has moved their because its cheap, and with Japanese quality standards they will shift up on quality, and their universities churn out far more mathematically gifted engineers than the US (most of them better than me too!). It is only a matter of time that the Chinese don't need anyone for design or qulaity control.

As for the toys this stinks of US protectionism. Matel decided to manufacture over there and it should have been their responsibility to ensure quality compliance. Incidently the man who caused the **** up took his own life, lets hope that some of the Hedge fund managers have a similar sense of honour.

As for the US to attack China, let em. Then they can find out what a real superpower can do to their economy.

[Daft Boy]

US has the worst engineers I've had the misfortune to deal with. No there are not many design engineers in China YET! Most of the worlds manufacturing has moved their because its cheap, and with Japanese quality standards they will shift up on quality, and their universities churn out far more mathematically gifted engineers than the US (most of them better than me too!). It is only a matter of time that the Chinese don't need anyone for design or qulaity control.

.

All this chinese optimism in just pie in the sky. They still have great difficulty making complete tat. Manufacturing has moved there to take advantage of slave labour and for no other reason. They do not have the mentality of the japanese to move forward in engineering.

I am still waiting for anyone on this site to tell me of a single quality item that has ever been designed , engineered and built in china.

All I get is some crystal ball prediction that it may/might/will happen sometime in the future perhaps. Universities do not churn out engineers, they only produce graduates who may be capable of being trained into becoming engineers. It takes a lifetime to become a top engineer. Some people seem to think (including the chinese) that its similiar to being trained to work in a call centre.

[LargelyIgnorant]

http://www1.cei.gov.cn/ce/doc/cen3/200602232362.htm

Airbus, the world's largest maker of commercial aircraft, said it will make its first A320 aircraft in China by the end of 2008 as it seeks to boost capacity amid demand for single-aisle planes. Airbus will build as many as four A320s a month in China by 2010, chief executive Gustav Humbert said in a press conference yesterday at the Asian Aerospace show in Singapore. Airbus will choose the site of its final assembly line in China as early as June, he said.

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html

Boeing helps Chinese companies develop skills, achieve certification, and join world aviation and supplier networks. China has an increasingly sophisticated and expanding part to play in the commercial aviation industry, and has a role on all of Boeing commercial airplane models-737, 747, 767, 777 and 787. It, builds horizontal stabilizers, vertical fins, portions of the aft tail section, doors, wing-panels and other parts on the 737; all the trailing edge wing ribs for every 747. China also has an important role on the new 787 Dreamliner airplane, building the rudder, wing-to-body fairing panels and leading edge of the vertical fin. China is the first conversion location for the new 747-400 Boeing Converted Freighter. Many parts and assemblies are built in China. Conversion, test and certification are performed in China and airplanes are delivered from China.

[frozen_out]

I am still waiting for anyone on this site to tell me of a single quality item that has ever been designed , engineered and built in china.

Are you serious?

Ladies and gentleman I give you the great wall of China, one of the grandest engineering schemes in the history of man. A country that can knock that together can do anything with the right focus. All this 'no innovation' ****** is just that. I work at a good British university and we've got brilliant Chinese students coming out of our ears.

[symo]

Wow don't have to it appears everyone can name them. Look like it or not, this proud little island is playing with big boys without the resources or personnel to keep up. We have buit an economy on debt and our chance of staying afloat was destroyed by venerating Lawyers and Bankers instead of engineers.

Really have you read fantasy island?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fantasy-Island-Lar...t/dp/1845296052

Worth a read as we no longer produce anythin really except services and solutions. These are known in Industry as "Hot Air" we can go around saying we are the best engineers etc, but the reality is people like me are looking for a way out of the UK, cos I want my kids to grow up where industry is seen as vital to the economy rather than a load of wide boys and toffs gambling in the City. I want to live where the economy isn't proped up on this debt too.

.....................mind you with peak oil having past those jobs in Oil and Gas are looking very tempting right now.

Edited August 17, 2007 by symo

[Sonic the Hedge Fund]

Across the broadcast media, and especially the BBC, we have to be absolutely certain that what allege about others is true. If we don't, we get slaughtered. The libel laws scare us, nothing more sinister........ And we do take professional pride in getting things right.

Welcome to HPC W12

There is some real treasure on this forum, amongst all the floatsum.

whereabouts do you reside on STVI?

[Daft Boy]

Are you serious?

Ladies and gentleman I give you the great wall of China, one of the grandest engineering schemes in the history of man. A country that can knock that together can do anything with the right focus. All this 'no innovation' ****** is just that. I work at a good British university and we've got brilliant Chinese students coming out of our ears.

It took a million prisoners of war 1700 years to build the great wall of china. Not sure who the chinese construction company was though. You forgot the wheelbarrow which the chinese invented around the time they started on the wall. The wheelbarrows were pushed around china for the next two hundred years as a status symbol until the irish invented the shovel.

[Daft Boy]

Wow don't have to it appears everyone can name them.

No they can't. Nobody has named one. Go on have a good think and become the first to name one.

[Daft Boy]

http://www1.cei.gov.cn/ce/doc/cen3/200602232362.htm

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/aboutus/boechina.html

Boeing have a massive financial interest in China and this type of marketing spin helps in maintaining that vital position. It also gives them authority over essential quality and safety control whilst at the same time giving them the opportunity to remain the major player in the chinese fledgling aviation industry. Boeing are not stupid and are seeking a major slice of the cake. Boeing need to be seen as giving something in return to keep the customer sweet.

Boeing would never lower themselves to being involved in the chinese custom of corruption and this is a way of giving something back to the community whilst at the same time maintaining a stranglehold in china for the forseeable future.

[Solvent Celt]

I am still waiting for anyone on this site to tell me of a single quality item that has ever been designed , engineered and built in china.

motorised roller skates?

err...

[Daft Boy]

motorised roller skates?

err...

Ok Solvent Cell I will give you that one. If they can overcome the safety implications of the plastic petrol tanks that are required to be strapped to the users legs and work out some sort of braking system they might just have a winner. Hats off to all the chinese graduate engineers who were involved in this groundbraking project. I fear many graduates may have perished during testing to bring this all chinese product to the consumer. You do have to give them full marks for trying.

[Back Seat Crasher]

No they can't. Nobody has named one. Go on have a good think and become the first to name one.

Daft boy, it's all in the name daft is what you are, if you really believe what you say take a look yourself. You believe the hype in the media suggesting you know very little about the landscape in China. looking at history China invented paper (and paper money), Silk, Seismograph, Pasta yes pasta, the clock, Gunpowder, crossbow (600BC), The compass, the chinese had this is 2nd century AD, we didn't use this until 15th century.

If you think this is all in the past and they can't invent anything now take a look at http://www.haier.com/products/index.asp or read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6912056.stm

Since 1999, Chinese spending on research and development has grown by 20% every year.

Hu Jintao has set a research and development target of 2.5% of gross domestic product by 2020.

The country's spending is now starting to have a global impact.

Young Chinese are increasingly involved in technological innovation

The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) says that China has now overtaken Japan's research and development spending.

In seven years time, China may also overtake the world leader, the United States.

So multinational firms are now betting that the long-term future of innovation may lie in China.

Hundreds of companies have opened research centres in Beijing and Shanghai.

Intel has its own compound in a skyscraper in Beijing, where dozens of young researchers doodle on notepads or write incomprehensible programmes onto their computer screens.

Intel's strategy is simple - sign up the best young brains in China and then get them to have a go at some mind-bending problems, such as face processing imaging, machinery application on video retrieval and ultra-mobile devices.

"We believe that China has great potential in innovation," says Yimin Zhang, who runs Intel's Application Research Lab.

"China has a strong local talent pool. People are well educated and very passionate about technology and innovation."

And there are more and more of them. Every year more than 20,000 Chinese students obtain their doctorates. Some choose to work abroad, but many are now being encouraged to stay in China.

This new generation has its orders - to start inventing.

That is quite an ambition for a country built on repetition, copying and obedience.

[enrieb]

I am still waiting for anyone on this site to tell me of a single quality item that has ever been designed , engineered and built in china.

O.K so this is only anecdotal from my own work experience and you may well dismiss it, I cannot hope to have a chance to convince you or anyone else as I cannot and would not provide evidence or links to prove my case. Yet still here it is.

I used to work for a large multinational corporation and in our division of the business we manufactured a very important and expensive component for car engines, we held over fifty percent of the global market share in this product. At first the units were manufactured mainly in the USA, UK, France and Italy. Though with increased competitive pressure through the growth of globalisation, the company eventually began to outsource production and component supply from other countries that included China, India and eastern European former soviet union countries.

One of the most important parts of the product that we used to buy were supplied by a foundry in Ireland, the same product could now be flown in from China for a cheaper price at a far superior quality, we would also import fully assembled units from newly built factories in eastern Europe and replace the 'Made in Romania' Nameplate with a 'Made in UK' one, this I was led to believe was just inside the law as the old Nameplate and serial numbers were stored in a database that could be cross referenced against the new Nameplate and serial number incase of a quality problem requiring a product recall.

Over one third of the units that were shipped from our UK factory were produced outside the UK and given a 'Made in UK' nameplate. My point being that most of the products that you think you are buying from a UK, Japan, USA, Germany etc.. manufacturer are not even made those countries, they may well be packed there or have the final assembly carried out in one of the above countries yet a huge percentage of the parts are made outside the named countries.

So when you think you are buying a quality 'Made in UK' product, you may well be buying a product that has been made in China.

Edited August 17, 2007 by enrieb

[Daft Boy]

O.K so this is only anecdotal from my own work experience and you may well dismiss it, I cannot hope to have a chance to convince you or anyone else as I cannot and would not provide evidence or links to prove my case.

So when you think you are buying a quality 'Made in UK' product, you may well be buying a product that has been made in China.

I do accept everything you say. All I am asking for is someone to tell me what this quality item is that has been designed, engineered and built in china with no imput from any outside source. In does not matter if it has got "made in UK" or anywhere else on it. I just need to know what the quality item is. A simple question really.

[Daft Boy]

Daft boy, it's all in the name daft is what you are, if you really believe what you say take a look yourself. You believe the hype in the media suggesting you know very little about the landscape in China. looking at history China invented paper (and paper money), Silk, Seismograph, Pasta yes pasta, the clock, Gunpowder, crossbow (600BC), The compass, the chinese had this is 2nd century AD, we didn't use this until 15th century.

If you think this is all in the past and they can't invent anything now take a look at http://www.haier.com/products/index.asp or read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6912056.stm

Ok, lets narrow it down. During the last fifty years what quality item have the chinese designed, engineered and built without any assistance or input from any outside source. None of your links show anything that meets that criteria. We all know the hype about the need for the chinese to start inventing and designing and what they will do sometime in the future. All I want to know is the answer to my very basic question. Just name one product. Thats not to much to ask surely.

[dubsie]

This has been going on for years, China basically makes rubbish to sell in our shops. Anyone who has travelled to China will know that they probably don't enforce this type of thing.

[Clueless_Academic]

How China Plans to Dominate the Shipbuilding Industry

http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/view_art.asp?Prod_ID=80

A nice link for you - which shows that although China has aspirations to be 'no.1.' it suffers from numerous drawbacks. Additionally, the Chinese are planning numerous joint ventures with Korean & Japanese companies in order to gain technology transfers -

Bottom line is that Chinese marine equipment is inferior to Western sourced products -

This article goes on to state that;

"China's shipbuilding industry still has obstacles to overcome before it can take full advantage of the opportunities offered. Beijing's goal of sourcing 80 percent of ship components from Chinese industry by 2000 was not met. The actual use of Chinese-made equipment is very limited due to its poor quality. This is most vexing in the area of propulsion systems.

China has also been importing advanced production methods and capital equipment, including complete production lines. Using foreign sourced computer-aided design and computer-aided manufacturing (CAD/CAM) hardware and software, Chinese naval architects are becoming more proficient in designing ship hulls, compartment layouts, and propeller-rudder combinations that improve speed, efficiency and structural integrity.

Inefficiency is another pressing problem. Many of China's 800 shipyards are underutilized. A typical Chinese yard employs 9,000-12,000 workers, but these workers are not always kept busy. Poor management, corruption, lack of technical knowledge and political mandates to use particular suppliers undermine operations. In recent years, Beijing has been trying to reform the industry's structure by merging yards and making administrative changes."

Edited August 17, 2007 by Clueless_Academic