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So, in the fantasy land that is the Office for National Statistics, consumer prices are rising at only 1.9% per annum, whereas back in the real world it is now apparently too expensive to make bread out of wheat. Half the loaves in my local Tesco's have been replaced by some evil concoction known as 'oat bread', and a cursory examination of the aisles or of subprimetime tele adverts will reveal no end of oat-based snacks where tasty wheat and corn were once found. Even Weetabix are now being made from oats. It's oats everywhere. It's all oats.

House prices may be booming but the inflationary policies of this country are reducing our entire diet to porridge.

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So, in the fantasy land that is the Office for National Statistics, consumer prices are rising at only 1.9% per annum, whereas back in the real world it is now apparently too expensive to make bread out of wheat. Half the loaves in my local Tesco's have been replaced by some evil concoction known as 'oat bread', and a cursory examination of the aisles or of subprimetime tele adverts will reveal no end of oat-based snacks where tasty wheat and corn were once found. Even Weetabix are now being made from oats. It's oats everywhere. It's all oats.

House prices may be booming but the inflationary policies of this country are reducing our entire diet to porridge.

Watching Richard Dawkins on television last night I'm reminded of just how many irrationalists there are on this site. Both CPI and RPI can be criticised because of the mix of items in the basket but for someone to seriously tout the idea that these figures are 'fantasy land' is silly, tiresome, and at times as Dawkins would have it downright dangerous.

I read repeatedly on this site that CPI and RPI are false, that the government, the ONS et al are lying to us in some fantastical grand conspiracy but never see any evidence produced. Oft-repeated twaddle is still twaddle.

Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

And as for the idea that bread is only made from wheat - I'd suggest you get out and about more and learn a little history too. You could start with some basic bread-making skills - no better intro to bread-making than Elizabeth David's 'English Bread and Yeast Cookery'. Whilst you're at it Dennis Burkett's excellent Fibre in Your Diet will give you a basic understanding of why oats should be part of your food intake.

Edited by happy?

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So, in the fantasy land that is the Office for National Statistics, consumer prices are rising at only 1.9% per annum, whereas back in the real world it is now apparently too expensive to make bread out of wheat. Half the loaves in my local Tesco's have been replaced by some evil concoction known as 'oat bread', and a cursory examination of the aisles or of subprimetime tele adverts will reveal no end of oat-based snacks where tasty wheat and corn were once found. Even Weetabix are now being made from oats. It's oats everywhere. It's all oats.

House prices may be booming but the inflationary policies of this country are reducing our entire diet to porridge.

Very true.........

Part of Gordon's plan to make us all Scottish

:lol::lol::lol:

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Watching Richard Dawkins on television last night I'm reminded of just how many irrationalists there are on this site. Both CPI and RPI can be criticised because of the mix of items in the basket but for someone to seriously tout the idea that these figures are 'fantasy land' is silly, tiresome, and at times as Dawkins would have it downright dangerous.

I read repeatedly on this site that CPI and RPI are false, that the government, the ONS et al are lying to us in some fantastical grand conspiracy but never see any evidence produced. Oft-repeated twaddle is still twaddle.

Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

well said

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Watching Richard Dawkins on television last night I'm reminded of just how many irrationalists there are on this site. Both CPI and RPI can be criticised because of the mix of items in the basket but for someone to seriously tout the idea that these figures are 'fantasy land' is silly, tiresome, and at times as Dawkins would have it downright dangerous.

I read repeatedly on this site that CPI and RPI are false, that the government, the ONS et al are lying to us in some fantastical grand conspiracy but never see any evidence produced. Oft-repeated twaddle is still twaddle.

Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

Well, Dawkins problem is with people who do not look at facts. Most people on this site (bar a few nutters with conspiracy theories) are super-focussed on facts - data and historical nous. The CPI is massaged each month according to the prevailing wind...even our parents knew this in the innocent Chesil Beach 60s..

The CPI has more swerves than Merv himslef...and it ain't rational :rolleyes:

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Watching Richard Dawkins on television last night I'm reminded of just how many irrationalists there are on this site. Both CPI and RPI can be criticised because of the mix of items in the basket but for someone to seriously tout the idea that these figures are 'fantasy land' is silly, tiresome, and at times as Dawkins would have it downright dangerous.

I read repeatedly on this site that CPI and RPI are false, that the government, the ONS et al are lying to us in some fantastical grand conspiracy but never see any evidence produced. Oft-repeated twaddle is still twaddle.

Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

Because they both CPI and RPI do not represent the peoples inflation, sure can't match everyones, but pretty much EVERYONE has to use transport, pay taxes and have to provide shelter over their heads! All of these have been shootinh through the roof in terms of inflation.

CPI doesn't represent ANYONE to any degree of accuracy and the weightings are another matter!

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Watching Richard Dawkins on television last night I'm reminded of just how many irrationalists there are on this site. Both CPI and RPI can be criticised because of the mix of items in the basket but for someone to seriously tout the idea that these figures are 'fantasy land' is silly, tiresome, and at times as Dawkins would have it downright dangerous.

I read repeatedly on this site that CPI and RPI are false, that the government, the ONS et al are lying to us in some fantastical grand conspiracy but never see any evidence produced. Oft-repeated twaddle is still twaddle.

Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

Be fair now. If it were not for group delusion and conspiracy theorists and a sprinkling of marxists this site would not function. There are a handful of lucid bears out there but not many. However, you will not get an answer to your question - it never happens.

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Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

From the ONS web site:

"Another large downward contribution came from furniture and furnishings, with average prices falling over the month by more than 10 per cent"

So you think it's plausible that furniture in general is 10% cheaper than it was a month ago? I'm not saying the figures are deliberately fiddled, but they're obviously nonsense. No?

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From the ONS web site:

"Another large downward contribution came from furniture and furnishings, with average prices falling over the month by more than 10 per cent"

So you think it's plausible that furniture in general is 10% cheaper than it was a month ago? I'm not saying the figures are deliberately fiddled, but they're obviously nonsense. No?

Evidence please.

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So, in the fantasy land that is the Office for National Statistics, consumer prices are rising at only 1.9% per annum, whereas back in the real world it is now apparently too expensive to make bread out of wheat. Half the loaves in my local Tesco's have been replaced by some evil concoction known as 'oat bread', and a cursory examination of the aisles or of subprimetime tele adverts will reveal no end of oat-based snacks where tasty wheat and corn were once found. Even Weetabix are now being made from oats. It's oats everywhere. It's all oats.

House prices may be booming but the inflationary policies of this country are reducing our entire diet to porridge.

It what they call substitution, when a product gets to expensive we substitute, eg, we start with lobster for our dinner, then that get pricy, so then we go to beef, then lamb, then pork, then sausages, then caca in a can, then instead of meat we move over to beans and ultimatly grass, you see the cost of food remains the same as far as the CPI people are concerned.

Edited by steve99

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From the ONS web site:

"Another large downward contribution came from furniture and furnishings, with average prices falling over the month by more than 10 per cent"

So you think it's plausible that furniture in general is 10% cheaper than it was a month ago? I'm not saying the figures are deliberately fiddled, but they're obviously nonsense. No?

Sounds plausible enough to me. Why is it fantasy? Rubbish weather and fewer home movers presumably mean fewer furniture sales equals price reductions i guess. Whats the point im missing here?

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It what they call substitution, when a product gets to expensive we substitute, eg, we start with lobster for our dinner, then that get pricy, so then we go to beef, then lamb, then pork, then sausages, then caca in a can, then instead of meat we move over to beans and ultimatly grass, you see the cost of food remains the same as far as the CPI people are concerned.

And your evidence is where?

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sprinkling of marxists

hmm now that's a new one! Now, I'm not denying its true, but it certainly gives a little balance to the allegation that this forum is replete with jackboot wearing xenophobes and racists... (sadly, there are some, but I think it shows that we are a broad church)

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heres a hint to how CPI may be fiddled. "geometric adjustment"

I m sure theres a few people on here who havent watched it....... :ph34r:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmyvEhU-gmw

2:38 mins in , US view point - but relevent to the UK. You know Bush and Blair were best buddies right?

Edited by notanewmember

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hmm now that's a new one! Now, I'm not denying its true, but it certainly gives a little balance to the allegation that this forum is replete with jackboot wearing xenophobes and racists... (sadly, there are some, but I think it shows that we are a broad church)

One of the good things about this site is that it caters for all comers regardless.

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I'm not a nut (don't think so anyway) but there definately is a selection bias in the 'typical' basket.

Taken from http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/nojo...basket_2007.pdf

"However, the contents of the RPI and CPI baskets of goods and services and their

associated expenditure weights are updated annually. This is important in helping to

avoid potential biases in consumer price indices that might otherwise develop over

time, for example, due to the development of entirely new goods and services, or the

tendency for consumers to substitute purchases away from those particular goods

and services for which prices have risen relatively rapidly. For example, if tea

showed a dramatic rise in prices during one year, consumers might switch their

spending towards other beverages, making it necessary to adjust the expenditure

weights accordingly in the following year."

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heres a hint to how CPI may be fiddled. "geometric adjustment"

I m sure theres a few people on here who havent watched it....... :ph34r:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmyvEhU-gmw

2:38 mins in , US view point - but relevent to the UK. You know Bush and Blair were best buddies right?

It's a nice little propaganda piece and well done. Hitler declared he didn't need gold to build the Third Reich, America no longer is on the gold standard ergo the US and Nazi Germany are economic equivalents (and by extension moral equivalents). Bush and Blair were 'buddies' and by extension Blair used the same 'tricks' with CPI - after all who would want to consort with a known witch except (whisper it) another witch.

Should I now drag out the ducking stool or should I hold my ground? Won't one of the conspiracy theorists or nay-sayers of the ONS give me a shred of evidence to support the innuendo and the inferences? Reason and evidence really are out of fashion. The heart of Dawkins' theory was the retreat from the pursuit of the scientific, nothing I've seen posted here tonight persuades me otherwise.

Edited by happy?

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And your evidence is where?

It's true, they use geometric rather than arithmetic means to model this and they give lower values, conveniently.

If you think the CPI is a valid measure of changes in the cost of anyone's living, go to the ONS site and check out how the various components are weighted - it's hilarious.

I thought the "CPI is a joke" argument was done and dusted and part of mainstream public opinion ages ago?

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And your evidence is where?

Are you some kind of delusional fruitcake?

Look at house prices - they are an essential item in anyones basket - yet nowhere to be seen in any measure - QED CPI is massaged to suit the governmnet to supress wages.

When its all around you you just refuse to see it.

HAL

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I m not here to forcibly make people believe or disbelieve the CPI. Just point out the alternative views.

You can make up your own minds.

Heres the Argentine goverment accused of CPI manipulation to its own ends - as posted on the CPI thread.

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When its all around you you just refuse to see it.

HAL

It's the opposite. Everyone's running around telling me the sky's about to fall.

You're right in one respect though - I can't see it.

And when I ask for your evidence you call me a fruitcake.

When someone who sees 'evidence all around them' (that CPI and RPI are massaged by some great conspiracy) but can't produce any evidence for me to look at I take re-assurance in being a minority.

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Instead of assaulting reason and assuming everyone will join in with you in this nonsense explain yourself - explain exactly why you think these figures are a 'fantasy'.

For starters you can take the fact that when this year's new computer does pretty much what last year's computer did (or a bit less if it came with Windows Vista), hedonic adjustment is used so that it has a negative contribution toward the inflation figures, but when last year's loaf of bread is replaced by some sort of aerated flapjack, where's the hedonic adjustment upwards? Nowhere to be seen, that's where.

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Are you some kind of delusional fruitcake?

Look at house prices - they are an essential item in anyones basket - yet nowhere to be seen in any measure - QED CPI is massaged to suit the governmnet to supress wages.

When its all around you you just refuse to see it.

HAL

Some fruitcake for you to chew on

This page shows links for both CPI and RPI (which includes housing costs)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/article.asp?ID=1746

Please explain to me in what sense this data (which along with the method of collection is freely available on a public website) is suppressed or "isn't to be seen in any measure".

To paraphrase your conspiratorial rant "I just can't see it".

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For starters you can take the fact that when this year's new computer does pretty much what last year's computer did (or a bit less if it came with Windows Vista), hedonic adjustment is used so that it has a negative contribution toward the inflation figures, but when last year's loaf of bread is replaced by some sort of aerated flapjack, where's the hedonic adjustment upwards? Nowhere to be seen, that's where.

I don't want to seem like a stuck record and I'm willing to be persuaded of the argument, can you tell me which bread's been substituted?

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