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I still think a poll tax is the way to make things fairer in the UK. If a house is empy then the registered owner has to pay the equivilant mulitplyed by the number of bedrooms or similar.

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I like the idea of poll tax.

This tax, call it what you will, pays for things we ALL use: police, cleaning the streets, schools.

So why should it be based on the price of your house?

Council tax is capped - so the wealthiest pay say £2500 max, while somebody round the corner in a council flat could still pay £1000.

Council tax is not an even distribution of the costs.

I think it should be theoretically paid for by all adults (exceptions/benefits to discount it as appropriate) - which is what Poll Tax did.

With poll tax each person paid the same.

With council tax each person isn't paying the same. That does not mean that the wealthier pay more.

Two houses, side by side. Council tax of £1000.

House 1: 1 person - pays £750

House 2: 4 people - pay £1000, which is £250 each

House 2: 2 people - £500 each

It shouldn't be linked to house value/cost.

These are services we should all pay equally for.

I just don't know what the right mix is. But poll tax to me was closest to being fair.

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I still think a poll tax is the way to make things fairer in the UK. If a house is empy then the registered owner has to pay the equivilant mulitplyed by the number of bedrooms or similar.

Poll tax is payable per person, not per bedroom. It failed because it targeted people who were prepared to riot -- unlike most OOs, who are a relatively soft target.

Poll tax trivia: Dawn Primarolo was a poll tax refusenik; now she works for the Treasury in the role of Paymaster General -- a classic piece of new labour hypocrisy.

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I like the idea of poll tax.

So do I! Particularly when introduced and run by a Tory government! Why Oh Why doesn't this wimp Dave Boy Cameron guarantee to re-introduce it immediately when the Tories get back into power. It's a sure winner!

What could be fairer? The multi-millionaire pays exactly the same as the poverty-stricken widow of a WWII war hero. The land-owning gentry pay exactly the same as each individual in a Great British Hard Working Family (I can use that stupid phrase, too, lauerjohn).

Bring it on, Cameron!

p

Edited by patprimer74

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Your all mad if you think the poll tax was a good idea. You pay the same for services if your living in a 12 bedroom mansion or just renting one room. How the hell was that fair?. Bring it back and ill kick your asses again, just like i did last time.

Large houses would rocket in value and smaller ones would stay the same. THINK! please. <_<

It was going to cost us about 2 quid a day to live in the uk. If you were on ten thousand a year, or ten million, it made no differance.

Edited by charliemouse

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House prices rise according to research.

Research at the time suggested that the switch from Rates to Poll Tax (and subsequently Council Tax) would tend to increase house prices.

'Switch to poll tax 'may lift house prices 15%'':

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/FAQ-1990-...rs-said.php#mar

The switch from rates to poll tax could add 15 per cent to house prices nationally, according to research by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the London Business School. It will also change the relative prices of houses in different areas,...

Majority of council revenue comes from general taxation.

I like the idea of poll tax.

This tax, call it what you will, pays for things we ALL use: police, cleaning the streets, schools.

So why should it be based on the price of your house? [scaredEitherWay]

Around 75% of local authority funding is paid from general taxation so almost everyone makes some contribution (even people on benefits). Since property values are greatly enhanced by the provision of made up roads, street lighting, rubbish collection, pest control services, access to local schools, etc. it seems reasonable to me that property owners who benefit financially should contribute a bit more for those local services (this also helps to moderate house prices). The fundamental problem with Council Tax is that it's much too high because local authorities have become far too big and bloated. Radical reform is needed to cut them down to size and make them more accountable -- that's the real problem.

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If you were on ten thousand a year, or ten million, it made no differance.

If you want income to make a difference, you must support a local income tax -- what we have at the moment takes no account of it.

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The fundamental problem with Council Tax is that it's much too high because local authorities have become far too big and bloated. Radical reform is needed to cut them down to size and make them more accountable -- that's the real problem.

This is quite correct. Remember two things, though:

- many obligations that councils must fulfil are set centrally

- public sector pay (including gold-plated pensions) represents a huge chunk of council outgoings and are also negotiated centrally.

The idea of local taxation (poll tax in particular) was that local voters would take more interest in getting value for money and holding their councils to account. This would work if there were more local autonomy, but there isn't :(

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If you want income to make a difference, you must support a local income tax -- what we have at the moment takes no account of it. [huw]

Yes it does: people with higher incomes generally pay more income tax and other general taxes from which most local authority spending is funded. People on low incomes can claim Council Tax Benefit.

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If you want income to make a difference, you must support a local income tax -- what we have at the moment takes no account of it. [huw]

Yes it does: people with higher incomes generally pay more income tax and other general taxes from which most local authority spending is funded. People on low incomes can claim Council Tax Benefit.

Tax systems shouldn't rely on 'generally', though. Someone on a modest income might end up in a high-valued house through no 'fault' of their own -- the area might have gentrified around them, for example. Particularly as people get elderly, they might find it very difficult to make a fresh start in a cheaper area.

If your aim is to have a progressive tax system, there's no substitute for having a progressive tax system. If you want to punish property owners or re-distribute housing wealth, then that's fine too -- but it's important to be open about the goals, rather than trying to pass off one thing as another.

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Your all mad if you think the poll tax was a good idea. You pay the same for services if your living in a 12 bedroom mansion or just renting one room. How the hell was that fair?. Bring it back and ill kick your asses again, just like i did last time.

Large houses would rocket in value and smaller ones would stay the same. THINK! please. <_<

It was going to cost us about 2 quid a day to live in the uk. If you were on ten thousand a year, or ten million, it made no differance.

How about all the people in BTL living 6 or 8 in a two bed flat? Right now they pay virtually nothing. If they all had to pay it may be uneconomic for BTL's to rent out this way?

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Tax systems shouldn't rely on 'generally', though. Someone on a modest income might end up in a high-valued house through no 'fault' of their own -- the area might have gentrified around them, for example. Particularly as people get elderly, they might find it very difficult to make a fresh start in a cheaper area.

If your aim is to have a progressive tax system, there's no substitute for having a progressive tax system. If you want to punish property owners or re-distribute housing wealth, then that's fine too -- but it's important to be open about the goals, rather than trying to pass off one thing as another.

A pragmatic person looking at collection levels might suggest that Council Tax works but that a greater range of banding (particularly toward the top end) was needed.

A practical person might also suggest the poll tax failed because collection rates were too low - it's unfairness lay not only in its regressive nature (which was intentional) but also in that it penalised those in stable households because they could not avoid it (which was not).

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So do I! Particularly when introduced and run by a Tory government! Why Oh Why doesn't this wimp Dave Boy Cameron guarantee to re-introduce it immediately when the Tories get back into power. It's a sure winner!

What could be fairer? The multi-millionaire pays exactly the same as the poverty-stricken widow of a WWII war hero. The land-owning gentry pay exactly the same as each individual in a Great British Hard Working Family (I can use that stupid phrase, too, lauerjohn).

Bring it on, Cameron!

p

It is totally fair and the only way to do things. At the moment I am a student living in a one bed flat so my views are theoretical and looking to the future.

Take 2 identical houses next to each other. Me and my girlfriend living in one, family of 6 living in the one next door. Both homes earn the same income - why should I pay the same for local services as a family of six - I will throw away less waste etc.

Another example - same house and the same family living next door. They earn 30k. I live by myself in a much larger and more valueable house down the road and earn 100k. My uses of the local services will be one sixth of theirs, and yet I would have to contribute far more to the local govt coffers. HOW CAN THIS BE RIGHT? Why are we so keen on peanalising those who work hard and achieve in this country - is it any wonder a large amount become non-dom tax exiles?

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A practical person might also suggest the poll tax failed because collection rates were too low - it's unfairness lay not only in its regressive nature (which was intentional) but also in that it penalised those in stable households because they could not avoid it (which was not).

True -- though having been an OO in Hackney during the mid-late 1990s, I can confirm that collection rates aren't always great with council tax. In fact it was a complete disaster!

A local income tax integrated into the existing national collection system would sweep away a layer of (sometimes incompetent)local tax-collection bureacracy, and would be backed by the enforcement ability of those scary people at HMR&C.

Edit: typos

Edited by huw

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From what I remember the point of the poll tax was to keep the Tories in power for decades - efficient Boroughs (Tory ones that slahed public services) charged barely nothing so everyone paid.

But Labour ones who kept services had far higher bills.

But the point was if you registered to vote you got sent a bill for your poll tax. So many less well off (Labour voters in the old days when they were Socialist) didn't register essentially you had to pay to vote (unless you lived in a Tory Borough then you could afford to vote.

But this wqas such a long time ago feels like a history thread

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What a total waste of time this thread is.

The poll tax was completely discredited when brought in, was impossible to collect, led to riots on the streets and ultimately to the political death of Mrs Thatcher.

John Major ditched it about 20 seconds after becoming PM and replaced it with a simplified version of the rates.

Only a mad Tory with a death wish would even consider re-introducing it.

A local income tax does appeal to me as an alternative though.

Mainly because I'm a self-employed tradesman with declared earnings of around £15k a year. I'd save a mint!

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It is totally fair and the only way to do things. At the moment I am a student living in a one bed flat so my views are theoretical and looking to the future.

Take 2 identical houses next to each other. Me and my girlfriend living in one, family of 6 living in the one next door. Both homes earn the same income - why should I pay the same for local services as a family of six - I will throw away less waste etc.

Another example - same house and the same family living next door. They earn 30k. I live by myself in a much larger and more valueable house down the road and earn 100k. My uses of the local services will be one sixth of theirs, and yet I would have to contribute far more to the local govt coffers. HOW CAN THIS BE RIGHT? Why are we so keen on peanalising those who work hard and achieve in this country - is it any wonder a large amount become non-dom tax exiles?

Because statistically it's probable that at some stage you're likely to call on most of those services in your life. Indeed to date I'm betting that you've benefitted from at least three of the following:

Schools

NHS

Social Services

Police

University education

Roads

Rubbish Collection

A town with theatres/sports centres/parks

I'm betting that as a student the most tax you've paid is VAT on alcohol. So far you've consumed far more than you've contributed - can I have my money back / how do you propose to repay me? Does the hard working but poor family of six next door earning 30k still look like a bunch of scroungers?

When and if you ever get £100k you might for a few short moments reflect on your good fortune instead of constantly bleating for more.

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A local income tax would be better than the council tax, that way everyone has to pay and the immigrants living fiftey to house don't get away with paying less. (Oh no! I mentioned the word immigrant, I must be a racist!!)

But seriously, everyone including those on benefits should have a percentage of their income taken to pay for local services.

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Because statistically it's probable that at some stage you're likely to call on most of those services in your life. Indeed to date I'm betting that you've benefitted from at least three of the following:

Schools

NHS

Social Services

Police

University education

Roads

Rubbish Collection

A town with theatres/sports centres/parks

I'm betting that as a student the most tax you've paid is VAT on alcohol. So far you've consumed far more than you've contributed - can I have my money back / how do you propose to repay me? Does the hard working but poor family of six next door earning 30k still look like a bunch of scroungers?

When and if you ever get £100k you might for a few short moments reflect on your good fortune instead of constantly bleating for more.

You'd be quite wrong with your assumption about the majority of tax being VAT on alcohol. The majority by a hell of a long way is corporation tax and income tax!

I have undoubtedly contributed more than I have consumed so far - where do i get my rebate from? Scools and health both private, had a problem with neds - phoned police but they wouldn't do anything until they had caused criminal damage so a no there as well, what do you use social services for??!, university I have had - wont that be more than covered by income tax? rubbish collection is obviously used but as a single guy with a large tax bill it would be far more cost effective to pay by the bag.

Don't get me started on raods -how many taxes do motorists get raped for? - road tax, vat on car, PETROL TAX etc. I believe that an amount equivalent to 20% of duty collected on vehicles is reinvested in roads - motorists pay way more than their fair share.

Sports centres/theatres/parks etc - parks are council owned and run, theatre I occasionally go to isn't, nor are the sports facilities.

Thats a hell of a lot I have to pay for my bins to be collected!! I don't think that earning a wage higher or lower than 100k is anything to do with good fortune. It is how hard you are prepared to work. Those who earn higher salaries seriously over subsidise those on poor incomes, I am wanting more of MY money to remain in my pocket, not bleating for more.

To simplify the concept of fairness in tax for you. 3 people, one on 10k, one on 30k and one on 100k.

All buy the same good from a shop, eg tv. Guy on 10k pays £500, guy on 30k pays £750 and the guy on 100k pays £1000. This is the effect of tiered tax rates and is completely unjustified and unfair. Lets level the playing field, regardless of what you earn 30p in the pound goes to the govt, 70p goes to you. There is no fairer system

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I can take my bin bags to the rubbish tip in a taxi each week for a quarter of the cost of my council tax. I get nothing at all from the local council, I don't think we should pay them anything. We should onlly pay for services that we receive when we get them, we should not pay these parasites up front for nothing, it only gives them the opportunity to shaft the working man.

Edited by enrieb

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A local income tax would be better than the council tax, that way everyone has to pay and the immigrants living fiftey to house don't get away with paying less. (Oh no! I mentioned the word immigrant, I must be a racist!!)

But seriously, everyone including those on benefits should have a percentage of their income taken to pay for local services.

Problem I see with this is that its not really the high earners who are the problem, its the BTLers with twenty properties etc. They would not have to pay this local tax nor would to be honest most immigrants living in these properties as they would disappear. The responsibility must be put on the registered owners to notify who they are renting out to. Eample being a lumlord renting out a four room house to 20 immigrants yet claiming one one person lives there.

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You'd be quite wrong with your assumption about the majority of tax being VAT on alcohol. The majority by a hell of a long way is corporation tax and income tax!

I have undoubtedly contributed more than I have consumed so far - where do i get my rebate from? Scools and health both private, had a problem with neds - phoned police but they wouldn't do anything until they had caused criminal damage so a no there as well, what do you use social services for??!, university I have had - wont that be more than covered by income tax? rubbish collection is obviously used but as a single guy with a large tax bill it would be far more cost effective to pay by the bag.

Don't get me started on raods -how many taxes do motorists get raped for? - road tax, vat on car, PETROL TAX etc. I believe that an amount equivalent to 20% of duty collected on vehicles is reinvested in roads - motorists pay way more than their fair share.

Sports centres/theatres/parks etc - parks are council owned and run, theatre I occasionally go to isn't, nor are the sports facilities.

Thats a hell of a lot I have to pay for my bins to be collected!! I don't think that earning a wage higher or lower than 100k is anything to do with good fortune. It is how hard you are prepared to work. Those who earn higher salaries seriously over subsidise those on poor incomes, I am wanting more of MY money to remain in my pocket, not bleating for more.

To simplify the concept of fairness in tax for you. 3 people, one on 10k, one on 30k and one on 100k.

All buy the same good from a shop, eg tv. Guy on 10k pays £500, guy on 30k pays £750 and the guy on 100k pays £1000. This is the effect of tiered tax rates and is completely unjustified and unfair. Lets level the playing field, regardless of what you earn 30p in the pound goes to the govt, 70p goes to you. There is no fairer system

Don't give us that hard work well-earned salary b*llocks - most earning at that level are simply living off the backs of others.

But it's clear with your references to private schooling and tax-avoidance greed that you're just baiting, so I shouldn't bite on that one.

Everyone, including John Major, knew that Thatchers suicidal piece of legislation was a festering lump of knobcheese. Still, it killed that evil old cow's political career off I suppose it did have one benefit we can be eternally grateful for. :)

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Your all mad if you think the poll tax was a good idea. You pay the same for services if your living in a 12 bedroom mansion or just renting one room. How the hell was that fair?. Bring it back and ill kick your asses again, just like i did last time.

Large houses would rocket in value and smaller ones would stay the same. THINK! please. <_<

It was going to cost us about 2 quid a day to live in the uk. If you were on ten thousand a year, or ten million, it made no differance.

You and me both Charliemouse - I was a student then and it was my very first big demo! Happy days :rolleyes:

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Don't give us that hard work well-earned salary b*llocks - most earning at that level are simply living off the backs of others.

But it's clear with your references to private schooling and tax-avoidance greed that you're just baiting, so I shouldn't bite on that one.

Everyone, including John Major, knew that Thatchers suicidal piece of legislation was a festering lump of knobcheese. Still, it killed that evil old cow's political career off I suppose it did have one benefit we can be eternally grateful for. :)

I really dont see how they are living off the backs of others? Stock borkers (playing markets not screwing over the little man), doctors (real drain on society), entrepeneurs (Mr. Sainsbury really meesed things up for working class people - wish all this competion that reduces prices for us would all go away). If it is not hard work then why don't more chose to do it - v little effort and much better money.

Broker for example - worked hard through school, then at uni and had to be very competitive to get a job at a good company. Then work a very high stress job for 14 hours a day. Compare to the other end of the spectrum - cleaner has no qualifications (cant have worked hard throughout school etc), goes to work for 8 hrs a day, zero stress and leaves work behind when she goes home for the night. One makes for an easier life, the other brings about better financial rewards -chose which ever you like, just dont complain about making the wrong choice later on.

Would I be correct in the assumption that you are in the high salary, low work levels, living off the back of others group as this is obviously best (and easy!!). Or did you not get the grades?

As for poll tax - take it one step furthur, reduce tax to the level required for basic govt requirements - defense, street lighting etc. Everything else private, paid for at the time of use. This is the fairest way. I don't expect you to pay for my cigarettes tomorrow, why should I be working to buy someone elses for them?

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