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Stupid Article In Moneyweek

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"If you’re a first time buyer locked out of the market, and you want to know the culprit, you need look no further than the buy-to-let investor. "

http://www.moneyweek.com/file/33408/are-im...use-prices.html

And how viable would buy-to-let be without two million immigrants in need of housing.

As the article states, theres no increase in rents - so they aren't having that much impact.

Your talking pish quite frankly. Read the article out - slowly mind - for your pals at the next BNP meeting.

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As the article states, theres no increase in rents - so they aren't having that much impact.

Your talking pish quite frankly. Read the article out - slowly mind - for your pals at the next BNP meeting.

I think BNP members are quite able to read and digest the facts for themselves and most will conclude that more people competing for a house will effect the sale price.

Supply and Demand is a well know fact and since immigrants do buy house or rent property and with such massive numbers invlolved will have played a part in setting the price.

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"If you’re a first time buyer locked out of the market, and you want to know the culprit, you need look no further than the buy-to-let investor. "

http://www.moneyweek.com/file/33408/are-im...use-prices.html

And how viable would buy-to-let be without two million immigrants in need of housing.

Is this the point in the thread where I can call you a nazi? :lol:

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As the article states, theres no increase in rents - so they aren't having that much impact.

Your talking pish quite frankly. Read the article out - slowly mind - for your pals at the next BNP meeting.

Bang on time the BNP argument is trotted out in an attempt to silence opposition to mass immigration.

The trouble with this article is it talks about things as if they happen in isolation from each other.

Why are rents static - because BTL has flooded the market with rental properties.

Why has BTL been viable on such a large scale - because of mass immigration.

Why have house prices gone so high - because cheap credit and mass immigration has enabled BTL on a massive scale.

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I think BNP members are quite able to read and digest the facts for themselves and most will conclude that more people competing for a house will effect the sale price.

Supply and Demand is a well know fact and since immigrants do buy house or rent property and with such massive numbers invlolved will have played a part in setting the price.

I think that immigrants have pushed down wage inflation, and as we all know, rents are determined by wages, whereas house prices for the past couple of years have been determined by loose credit. Any price increase due to increased demand for rented accomodation seems to have been offset by lower wages. The only immigrants I see purchasing houses are for BTL purposes, most others seem to be here for a quick buck, not for life and will leave as quickly as they came.

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First the BNP, now UKIP.

I rent cheaply (having strd) and have no problems with immigration. I like the free market and am suggesting that when pay increases inteh countries they come from to lure them back, they will go. Who wouldn't? If I could earn in Wales what I earn in London, I would go back. There is money out there for anyone willing to uproot and move somewhere new and unfamiliar. Problem is, people don't think that they should have to.

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I rent cheaply (having strd) and have no problems with immigration. I like the free market and am suggesting that when pay increases inteh countries they come from to lure them back, they will go. Who wouldn't? If I could earn in Wales what I earn in London, I would go back. There is money out there for anyone willing to uproot and move somewhere new and unfamiliar. Problem is, people don't think that they should have to.

Is that an argument for increasing the population by 200k + a year?

I'm afraid you will have to explain it.

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Is that an argument for increasing the population by 200k + a year?

I'm afraid you will have to explain it.

no, it was an argument as to why I should not be labelled UKIP.

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Bang on time the BNP argument is trotted out in an attempt to silence opposition to mass immigration.

The trouble with this article is it talks about things as if they happen in isolation from each other.

Why are rents static - because BTL has flooded the market with rental properties.

Why has BTL been viable on such a large scale - because of mass immigration.

Why have house prices gone so high - because cheap credit and mass immigration has enabled BTL on a massive scale.

God you plonker, you obviously did not read slow enough......

Let me re phrase....

1) There are enough houses for everyone (including immigrants) hence rent prices are not increasing. If there were an OVERALL shortage of houses, then rents would also increase as well as purchase prices

2) BTL are prepared to pay more for houses than the true rental value of the house - thus the cost of houses to purchase are going up. They are doing this on a speculative basis as they think VALUES will increase, which is fuelling a bubble (a bubble is where people buy an overpriced asset on the expectation that it will rise, and by doing so, further stoke the value of the asset)

Hence, if BTL were not ABLE to access stupid amounts of money to borrow to inflate the bubble - house prices would remain in line with overall supply - which is evidenced by rents. 330,000 mortgages were taken out by BTL in 2006 - these are 330,000 houses that could have gone to actual owner occupiers were it not for easy access to BTL credit.

The idea of a BNP voting plonker 'outsmarting' the economists at Moneyweek is amusing. Bless you for trying.......

Edited by Pond321

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It was my little joke at your username, sorry. :)

ah! I do apologise. It is actually my nickname at work because my surname begins with silk......

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God you plonker, you obviously did not read slow enough......

Let me re phrase....

1) There are enough houses for everyone (including immigrants) hence rent prices are not increasing. If there were an OVERALL shortage of houses, then rents would also increase as well as purchase prices

2) BTL are prepared to pay more for houses than the true rental value of the house - thus the cost of houses to purchase are going up. They are doing this on a speculative basis as they think VALUES will increase, which is fuelling a bubble (a bubble is where people buy an overpriced asset on the expectation that it will rise, and by doing so, further stoke the value of the asset)

Hence, if BTL were not ABLE to access stupid amounts of money to borrow to inflate the bubble - house prices would remain in line with overall supply - which is evidenced by rents. 330,000 mortgages were taken out by BTL in 2006 - these are 330,000 houses that could have gone to actual owner occupiers were it not for easy access to BTL credit.

The idea of a BNP voting plonker 'outsmarting' the economists at Moneyweek is amusing. Bless you for trying.......

why is BTL viable? because of immigration.

Why are FTBs priced out? because BTLs have bought up family homes, using cheap credit, converted them to multiple occupancy and rented them to immigrants.

It's very simple.

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I rent cheaply (having strd) and have no problems with immigration. I like the free market and am suggesting that when pay increases inteh countries they come from to lure them back, they will go. Who wouldn't? If I could earn in Wales what I earn in London, I would go back. There is money out there for anyone willing to uproot and move somewhere new and unfamiliar. Problem is, people don't think that they should have to.

Sorry I thought the British did do that, and were lambasted for doing so.

It was called the British Empire, it was deemed to be wrong, they wanted us out, and now the cheeky souls want to come here having stuffed it up for themselves in their homelands having been given it on a plate.

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Is this the point in the thread where I can call you a nazi? :lol:

:lol::lol:

Too early sossij - i think you have to wait until the second page of the thread.

F

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why is BTL viable? because of immigration.

Why are FTBs priced out? because BTLs have bought up family homes, using cheap credit, converted them to multiple occupancy and rented them to immigrants.

It's very simple.

Immigrants will indeed push up demand for housing which in turn will push up rental prices. Higher rental prices will indeed push up house prices. However, the point you have clearly missed, is that the vast majority of the increase in house price that we have observed over the last 10 or so years is not explained by increases in rental prices at all (which have grown only in-line with income) and instead results from a speculative demand driven by expectations of capital increases and easy access to credit.

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Lasertrip, I agree with your view but would expand a little on your last bit......Up to about 5 years ago, B2L rentals were much better than the interest due on a high loan-to-value mortgage. Sensible investors spotted this early and this caused some of the initial hpi. Since then the speculators took over as the cashflow maths didn't work any more. Ironically, if the sensible guys had sold out 5 years ago, they'd have made a lot less than the speculators but at least they would have real profits in the bank, as opposed to a paper profit which could get wiped out when prices turn.

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Lasertrip, I agree with your view but would expand a little on your last bit......Up to about 5 years ago, B2L rentals were much better than the interest due on a high loan-to-value mortgage. Sensible investors spotted this early and this caused some of the initial hpi. Since then the speculators took over as the cashflow maths didn't work any more. Ironically, if the sensible guys had sold out 5 years ago, they'd have made a lot less than the speculators but at least they would have real profits in the bank, as opposed to a paper profit which could get wiped out when prices turn.

In a word, bubble. Also, I don't think that the OP realises that there is a global house price bubble purely down to lax credit. THere has certainly been a bubble in Poland and Latvia, which have now burst. How could that happen if the populations of those countires were emigrating to the UK?

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the point you have clearly missed, is that the vast majority of the increase in house price that we have observed over the last 10 or so years is not explained by increases in rental prices at all (which have grown only in-line with income) and instead results from a speculative demand driven by expectations of capital increases and easy access to credit.

Rents have not gone up because the number of properties available to rent has increased in line with demand for rental accomomodation.

The increased demand for rental accomodation is from immigration.

Yes the motivation behind BTL has been speculative but there have been two factors that have made it viable:

1. cheap credit

2. increased demand for rental accomodation (due to immigration)

You can't take immigration out of the equation when discussing the explosion in BTL.

It remains to be seen whether the removal of cheap credit will be enough to crash the BTL market when there is still a high demand for rented accomodation.

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God you plonker, you obviously did not read slow enough......

Let me re phrase....

1) There are enough houses for everyone (including immigrants) hence rent prices are not increasing. If there were an OVERALL shortage of houses, then rents would also increase as well as purchase prices

2) BTL are prepared to pay more for houses than the true rental value of the house - thus the cost of houses to purchase are going up. They are doing this on a speculative basis as they think VALUES will increase, which is fuelling a bubble (a bubble is where people buy an overpriced asset on the expectation that it will rise, and by doing so, further stoke the value of the asset)

Hence, if BTL were not ABLE to access stupid amounts of money to borrow to inflate the bubble - house prices would remain in line with overall supply - which is evidenced by rents. 330,000 mortgages were taken out by BTL in 2006 - these are 330,000 houses that could have gone to actual owner occupiers were it not for easy access to BTL credit.

The idea of a BNP voting plonker 'outsmarting' the economists at Moneyweek is amusing. Bless you for trying.......

Don't agree with these points and think it is also hard to quantify because of the last census being in 2001 and also because statistics on immigration are so bad. Rents are far more sensitive to income than mortgages. People during low Interest Rates demand more debt which pushes up House Prices however although people run up debt on Credit Cards etc which theoretically they could use for Rent they are less likely to push up rents by increasing debt in this way.

There are so many factors that you are washing over, kind of like the argument that homelessness hasn't increased so there must be enough houses. People are far more inventive and you will have people living with there parents or at greater density than before i.e. less floor space per person and more people per house.

I wouldn't be at all surprised that when the next census comes out to see more people per house, a fall in owner occupancy and other negative statistics. Demand and supply are obviously price and quantity sensitive. On an absurd level reducing the UK to one house wouldn't make that house worth a trillion pounds just because it was the only one it would make it as expensive as one of the richer people were prepared to pay and the rest would live in the woods, emigrate etc.

There is definately a debate to be had on mass immigration, due to a whole range of issues from housing to environment. education to social identity. Mass immigration can destroy areas you just have to look at parts of Spain to see that it has been blighted by the english emigrating there.

Anyway the reason Rents haven't risen and house prices have is far more complicated than you think.

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why is BTL viable? because of immigration.

Why are FTBs priced out? because BTLs have bought up family homes, using cheap credit, converted them to multiple occupancy and rented them to immigrants.

It's very simple.

If he's typical of some of the people on these boards you'll need to draw him a little picture :)

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I have a colleague who wants to get into BTL (an immigrant actually). I said I think this is a bad idea the answer was

"House prices will continue to rise because of immigration." As people buy expensive houses because they believe the price will not fall

and probably rise, at least immigration is responsible for "the belief that house prices will rise" which of course does cause house prices to rise a bit. Does anyone disagree with this ?

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