Jump to content
House Price Crash Forum

Recommended Posts

I'm pretty new to posting on this forum but admit to reading it for a while.

A lot of you seem to hate the B2L brigade with a passion and I wondered if that hatred was to every investor or a certain kind. Just curious/ not looking for approval/ disapproval etc.

I come from the 1990 brigade. At 18 I was actively encouraged to buy as much property as possible. At the time B2L mortgages didn't exist or if they did they weren't termed as this. Mentors and banks were pushing the idea to buy constantly, to which I did.

The crash happened. I was very lucky. It hit London but not the North to any near comparison.

I haven't geared, not taken IO, never gone as far as 70% LTV. I agree that house prices are seriously unrealistic and out of reach to the FTB. House prices are in for a serious reduction IMO.

Most of the postings I read on here I either sympathise with on an affordability issue or agree with totally.

I don't understand why as a B2Letter I am hated when I share your anger and opinions.

Things aren't fair to this generation bt I don't think that you're in for a long wait.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, no hatred, its cool.

But what you will find is an "Us & Them" thing going on in this forum.

Ppl like TTRTR, laurejon and dogbox are self proclaimed BTL's, and they love putting in their sixpence worth about their ideas of the house market.

So that provokes a response most of the time from the other side, mainly wannabe FTB's, or STR's.

Everyone has their VI's about the market, and so opposing views collide. Think of it as a debate. Hence a forum!

:P

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for your reply.

I'm a B2Lr. Not a big head, not a 'talk the market upper' etc. I prefer to be known as a realist.

I've read the postings of two out of three of the 'them' team you have mentioned. That 'them' team needs breaking in to two sub teams:

1)The ones that need to talk crap.

2) The ones that recognise the market has cooled and don't NEED to sprout the crap.

I'm the latter.

Cheers Shish.

No, no hatred, its cool.

But what you will find is an "Us & Them" thing going on in this forum.

Ppl like TTRTR, laurejon and dogbox are self proclaimed BTL's, and they love putting in their sixpence worth about their ideas of the house market.

So that provokes a response most of the time from the other side, mainly wannabe FTB's, or STR's.

Everyone has their VI's about the market, and so opposing views collide. Think of it as a debate. Hence a forum!

:P

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm pretty new to posting on this forum but admit to reading it for a while.

A lot of you seem to hate the B2L brigade with a passion and I wondered if that hatred was to every investor or a certain kind. Just curious/ not looking for approval/ disapproval etc.

I come from the 1990 brigade. At 18 I was actively encouraged to buy as much property as possible. At the time B2L mortgages didn't exist or if they did they weren't termed as this.  Mentors and banks were pushing the idea to buy constantly, to which I did.

The crash happened. I was very lucky. It hit London but not the North to any near comparison.

I haven't geared, not taken IO, never gone as far as 70% LTV. I agree that house prices are seriously unrealistic and out of reach to the FTB. House prices are in for a serious reduction IMO.

Most of the postings I read on here I either sympathise with on an affordability issue or agree with totally.

I don't understand why as a B2Letter I am hated when I share your anger and opinions.

Things aren't fair to this generation bt I don't think that you're in for a long wait.

Interesting post, all of the B2L posters I have read on here for a long time have set out to rubbish the concerns of FTB'rs and to heap derision on them.

This is an emotive issue because it deals with real, longlasting, frustration at not being able to put in place one of the building blocks of life in Britain and in many cases a degree of hardship. I genuinely admire business people who do well and make a statement by buying a great car, house etc.; this really is not about jealousy. The problem with the current housing market is that it has become an aggressive speculative business commodity to some but is a basic need to others.

Hatred ? I dont know. I have had some bad experiences with landlords with withheld deposits and so on and planned (hard work, saving) to buy my own place and put that behind me. Some landlords are pretty bad people and are more than happy to rip their tenants off. It may be that the UK is now a place where B2L landlords are a dominant presence in the housing market and as a consequence are going to cause me and many others financial harm and a poor quality of life.

So hatred, no, but I'd vote for anyone who would bring legislation in to allow the housing market to be dominated by owner occupiers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, I do 'hate' BTLers as when you live in a town where a property that could have been 50-60k in 1999 in now 170k, that translates into an absolutely brutal assault on the living costs of the poor and average. It wasn't just house prices, rents doubled too, although they've fallen back a little in the last eighteen months as we all know.

Yet wages have only risen in line with the fiddled government inflation stats. Few employers will have an attitude of 'Oh, did housing costs double? - here, have a big payrise'. I saw a job advertised recently in a company I used to work for - entry-level graduate job - the exact same salary as 2001. With modest student debt and living in the cheapest bedsit, it would be perhaps impossible to live on the money. The truth is, there's full employment these days, but living wage jobs with prospects have never been so hard to come by. High housing costs could not have come at a worse time for the young.

Is the house price hyperfinflation BTL's fault?

Yes. That said, the BTLers are only children let loose in the sweetshop. The government and cheap money lenders that allowed such rampant speculation to continue with no regard for the social and economic consequences are equally to blame.

In 2002, we were looking at getting some sort of 1 bed flat at a ridiculous stretch. At the time it was hard to see one bed flats as BTLers - most using nothing more than MEW were hoovering them up as soon as they hit the market. I remember asking an EA for details for three flats he had in his window, only to be told that been sold that morning to the same 'investor'. At that time almost no FTB properties were being sold to FTBs. The wealth was being transfered to the greedy shoal of BTL parasites using mostly cheap borrowed money that should never have been lent.

BTL does not create any real wealth and has become a huge pyramid scheme, based on temporarily inflating the market to dizzy heights at the expense of those at the bottom who have to bankrupt themselves to enter the game will real, earned money, rather than MEW.

Even in dire Northern towns with little well-paid employment prices have soared, simply through the greedsters descending en masse and competing with each other as the population looks on bemused at the new, higher prices that have no relation to incomes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm pretty new to posting on this forum but admit to reading it for a while.

A lot of you seem to hate the B2L brigade with a passion and I wondered if that hatred was to every investor or a certain kind. Just curious/ not looking for approval/ disapproval etc.

I would say there are 3 types of landlord

1. proffessional landlords (the rarer breed)

2. unproffessional landlords (the more common species)

3. BTL's

I was also involved in property during the 80's-90's and BTL's in their current form didn't really figure in the equation - in this CURRENT HPC they will

My definition of a BTL is someone that has a couple of properties on the side, for the SOLE purpose of Capital gain

Proffessional/UnProffessional landlords run it like a business - long term and make a profit from rental yields

An example of how BTL can distort the market, especially younger FTB is as follows

I know a retired couple who moved out to cheaper area, but rather than sell their house in Home Counties (as they would have done 20 years ago) they kept it and rented it

Their kids (now young adults) hate the area they live in - would move back tomorrow but can't afford it

In the meantime their parents are now BTL'rs and have 2 houses, while their kids have none!

Bet the kids are hoping their parents don't change FROM BTL'rs TO SKIers (Spend Kids Inheritance)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I do 'hate' BTLers .........

Personally, I do 'hate' BTLers as when you live in a town where a property that could have been 50-60k in 1999 in now 170k

In 2002, we were looking at getting some sort of 1 bed flat at a ridiculous stretch. At the time it was hard to see one bed flats as BTLers -

Another one with an attitude due to being complacent him/herself. It is yourself you should be hating for not having the X factor to follow through with your aspirations. Weak mindedness gets you no where, as you now well know.

Be honest with yourself, it's a good start, on your new road.

KOTC.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Another one with an attitude due to being complacent him/herself. It is yourself you should be hating for not having the X factor to follow through with your aspirations. Weak mindedness gets you no where, as you now well know.

     Be honest with yourself, it's a good start, on your new road.

    KOTC.

Memorable Quotes from

Monty Python and the Holy Grail

King of Swamp Castle:

When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle in all of England.

It hasen't been easy for you swampie, the likes of you are now funding me to the tune of £600 a month, keep up the good work.

Link to post
Share on other sites
C&B,

Your:

" translates into an absolutely brutal assault on the living costs of the poor and average"

SORRY, but I regard that as utter nonsense.

How does investment in BTL influence "the poor"?

If such investment creates NEW SUPPLY, it will help bring rents DOWN.  And rents are more relevant to to poor that the temporary price of properties.

You need to see what is happening in a CYCLICAL perspective, not at one point in time

If in 1999 two people on 10k each and a small deposit could happily buy a two bedroom house and now that house costs 170k+, well, that's a brutal assualt on the poor caused by BTL. Without BTL, the market would have been constrained by actual real world earnings like it was throughout the 90s.

Plus, rents have only fallen a little recently - in 1999 a one bed flat could be rented for what is now the price of a room from some Rachman. In fact, it seems most BTLers that fail to rent their property for 900PCM, end up putting it on the market, rather than reduce the rent (probably, because their optimistic sums were based on getting that at least that each month). The BTL to force down rents idea doesn't really play out in reality, as once saturation point is reached, rents stop rising and the capital gains cease only the dimmest TV Property show watchers are still thinking about it. Is your percetopion coloured by London, which has an unusually high proportion of rented property compared to the rest of the UK? - elsewhere it's high rents and even higher house prices.

That's the reality and, yes, it's down to buy to let.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know whether I feel sorry for BTLetters or not. I don't care much. I feel a bit sorry for the sap who has had his pension buggered and withdrew equity from his house to finance buying on overpriced hutch in the hope that the rent would cover the mortgage while the price went up gloriously for ever. These people have a serious detachment from financial reality brought about by endless media crap talking the market up.

I get annoyed by w@nkers like KOTC who are full of a holier than thou 'get off your ****' and it will all be alright attitude.

I'd like to invite KOTC to a pub to meet my nieces, nephews and sons who would like to debate with him why, with debts from university still round their necks and credit card debts simple from the costs of living, they are excluded from the property market - apparently forever. Unless a miracle happens and their salaries double they will be living in shared rented accommodation forever. Now they are beginning to realise that the greed of BTLetters - people who have already made it in life, have a nice house and a comfortable amount of equity behind them - have effectively conspired to price young people out of the market. I should warn KOTC that a certain amount of anger is brewing amongst a lot of young people and a good kicking may be the outcome of any such meeting.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread........but where's ZZG113?

everything Marina and COAB say about the greedsters rings a bell here......the traditional FTB looked on in disbelief as throughout 2001 especially the already set up for life BTL brigade bid prices up between them to insane levels.....

All BTL i have met are the same 40 or 50 something person with their own nice house who MEWd to buy 1 or 2 BTLs ............having lost all trust in the financial markets......

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is truly an odd country that we live in today.

We seem to just love the prospect of putting someone down when they have more than ourselves.

Its envy, jealousy, and a whole host of other emotions building up due to the poor parenting skills we see today.

The whole of life is a gamble nothing is taken for granted and each day should be lived to the full as it may well be your last.

I applaud those that have taken the time and the trouble to go without and build something up to make their future.

The whole problem with the property market is that many people think it is now their birthright to have a house given to them. Single people complaining they cannot get on the ladder as if that is something new.

It has never been easy to buy a house, its not an investment its a home, and when you come to value those feelings that is the time to find a partner and buy one.

If every single person had their own property in the UK we would have to triple the existing housing stock and that is never going to happen.

Link to post
Share on other sites
.....................said the BTL parasite. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: Oh the irony!

And lo and behold a boy appears. What do you do, sit watching the screen all day waiting for someone to call upon your insulting expertise? 6000 posts that is scarey. Let me guess, you're priced out of the market? 6000 posts to the rescue, make a 'career' out of talking the market down?

Just because I invested in property when no one else wanted it, I fail to see how that makes me a parasite. Especially when I have other business interests as well.

If property had kept on a downward cycle over the last 7 years (see Japan) what would you be calling me today? You'd laugh if I'd failed, yet you laugh even though I've succeeded. Good old Britain of today.

I took the risk,I deserve my reward.

KOTC.

Link to post
Share on other sites
If every single person had their own property in the UK we would have to triple the existing housing stock and that is never going to happen.

I think we are becoming more and more self centred and selfish, unwilling to share. Each with our own house, car and parking space - wouldnt that be heaven?

Actually, we are now having to be sharing accomodation involuntarily - how curious.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are becoming more and more self centred and selfish, unwilling to share. Each with our own house, car and parking space - wouldnt that be heaven?

I think you´ll find that this is the new interpretation of what is truly meant by "capitalism", and as much as i dislike the position the UK housing market is in at the moment, i feel that this situation of `haves´ and `have nots` would be the new trend in our "global economy".

You only have to look at how much capital growth has been experienced by the west in the last decade and work out how much of that has been trickled down to the true workers - not a great deal. Even the government realises that a fair society is for all practical purposes is impossible and, would only manage any given situation to keep a ballance of willing voters.

Basically, in my opinion the only way to survive the system we find ourselves in is to read the trends and act accordingly. those that benefit from this, would always be viewed as the new enemy. Time will tell on how STR´s would be percived by the wider public, as for the moment BTL´s its your time in the stockade so empathise.

Ps its my first post after lurking for a while, like to pay my respects to DrB, Van and (yeah you guessed it) Zz.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We seem to just love the prospect of putting someone down when they have more than ourselves.

Not really, at least I do not see evidence of that here, only the putting down of people whose personal speculation and resulting income, without having produced anything and without tangible work, results in higher prices for everyone else who actually find more interesting and rewarding things to do with their time than playing the market. That's not envy, it is a justified resentment. I don't envy property speculators... since I have absolutely no desire to be like them...and in fact find them spiritually vacuous, crashingly boring and tedious.

I just wish they would go and speculate on something else which did less social harm.

It has never been easy to buy a house, its not an investment its a home...

Exactly, which is why there is general disapproval here of those who see homes purely as an investment.

VacantPossession

Link to post
Share on other sites
I took the risk,I deserve my reward.

A very good summing up of yourself. A narcissistic view of yourself in the mirror as a bold risk taker and brave entrepreneur. Give me a break. You just borrowed a bit of easy money on a manifestly rising market. Bully for you.

Some of us have got more useful things to do.

VacantPossession

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said, VP.

The BTL brigade like to talk about envy, but it's true that the average Joe doesn't mind being economically productive. My job isn't the most fun thing in the world, but it's not soul destroying either.

I've been into www.karmabanque.com a lot recently(check it out) and have already expanded my 'virtual 20k' on www.tradindex.com to 24k by spread betting on in the crap peformance of boycotted companies - without really know what I'm doing! Better than playing Desktop Solitaire but doesn't make you think what a ultimately pointless, empty life it must be as an investor gawping at bloomberg all day long - nothing to envy at all. I prefer working for a living.

Housing should be easy to come by for anyone willing to do a day's work, and that's what the rampant speculation in residential housing denies. It's not anger out of envy, but the anger you feel when the victim of a theft.

Still, it'll all crash soon but, politically, the last five years of house price inflation should have been managed differently.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • 439 Brexit, House prices and Summer 2020

    1. 1. Including the effects Brexit, where do you think average UK house prices will be relative to now in June 2020?


      • down 5% +
      • down 2.5%
      • Even
      • up 2.5%
      • up 5%



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.