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Well I can only go by my personal experience. I am willing to be corrected if things have radically changed in the last 9 years since I left with an MSc.

2:2 BSc Computer Science

MSc in Artificial Intelligence

4 years in industry working my way up the R&D ladder

3 years PhD

1 year R&D whilst writing up thesis

1 year post doc.

I can see that you are rather bitter about this though. I think someone needs a hug.

I can see that someone was trying so desperately overcompensate for that Desmond.... oh the shame!

Yes hug me.

Buy me a TuTu.

Slap my **** and call me Mable.

My horse has bolted from the stable.

Edited by Bushy Tail
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Guest Skint Academic

Wasn't trying to compensate. Was just trying to get to the point where I could enjoy my work.

I'm actually proud of the 2:2 because of the other difficulties I was faced with at that time of my life.

But feel free to continues with your meaningless jibes. I was only trying to offer advice you might find helpful.

Edited by Skint Academic
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Wasn't trying to compensate. Was just trying to get to the point where I could enjoy my work.

I'm actually proud of the 2:2 because of the other difficulties I was faced with at that time of my life.

But feel free to continues with your meaningless jibes. I was only trying to offer advice you might find helpful.

hey skint, just a bit of banter

i'm proud of my desmond as well, and just like yourself i had other difficulties (hangovers, being unable to get out of bed, being bored sh1tless etc)

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Guest Skint Academic
imo the msc stuffs your wage earning potential

all it shows to most employers is that you couldn't get a job after your bsc, hung on in education and are now overqualified...

;)

How can that be the case if you do an MSc straight after a BSc? It doesn't leave enough time to even try and fail to get a permanent job after the BSc. That proposition becomes especially dubious if you do relevant summer work inbetween.

EDIT: Sorry, sense of humour failure today due to lack of sleep. SoH wil be resumed in due course.

Edited by Skint Academic
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How can that be the case if you do an MSc straight after a BSc? It doesn't leave enough time to even try and fail to get a permanent job after the BSc. That proposition becomes especially dubious if you do relevant summer work inbetween.

EDIT: Sorry, sense of humour failure today due to lack of sleep. SoH wil be resumed in due course.

An MSc really has had no discernable effect on my earning potential, to my dismay it is pretty pointless, although i was funded through by a bursary which softens that blow. IMHO its better to crack on in work as soon as possible and get that experience.

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Nice story HPC C. If the "bill guy" was a half decent mate he'd have deducted his receipt from the total bill and split the remaining amount four ways, thus giving you all a discount on the meal.

Could have saved £5 in any case by "only" leaving a £10 tip and paying £40 each, then persuading Mr Bill to cough up an extra £10 as he was claiming back anyway ....

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Jeepers you must be a real treat. Im amazed anyone will go to a restaurant with you. Splitting the bill in direct proportion to the exact amount consumed is tiresome. If you do think you have subsidized someone then you probably "make it back" next time - unless you are always on the water and the biriyani i suppose.

I've usually only gone out for a meal about once a year - and always with a different group. It's never the same people. And I do only ever have the biryani. I like it and just that fills me up. And I don't drink alcohol. So there'd never be a chance of "making it back" against a greedy fat git with a binge-drinking dependency.

Maybe you're one of those freeloaders, they do seem to shout loudest about tight gits and how tiresome it is. No, it's tiresome subsidising wealthier people who freeload from me.

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£1500 a month as a bus driver....bloody hell!!

I know engineers at my place who spent years doing f***ing hard subjects like electronics at uni and they don't get paid much more than that......and don't get overtime as a perk.

No- but then they don't have a f***ing hard job, which often involves getting out of bed at 3am (like this week- I'll be off to bed very shortly), or working until 1.30am; occasional abuse and frequent low-level rudeness from passengers (although more often from putative fare-dodgers); bad driving and inconsiderateness from most other road users; and the requirement to meet any number of (often totally conflicting) demands from my ultimate employer, TfL.

Don't get me wrong, I think my wage is fair, but it's certainly not excessive. I happen to have a private school education and 3 A-Levels (As in Physics and Chemistry, C in Maths); I flunked out of university. If I'd known then what I do now I'd not have messed around for years trying to get back into uni, working in retail or (subsequently) in the civil service. I'm 28 now and I'd be a lot wealthier if I'd been driving a bus since the age of 22.

Essentially, the other posters saying that people doing unpopular jobs, or skilled manual labour are often the ones earning the most are absolutely right. My bus company certainly pays most of its office staff less than us drivers.

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No- but then they don't have a f***ing hard job, which often involves getting out of bed at 3am (like this week- I'll be off to bed very shortly), or working until 1.30am; occasional abuse and frequent low-level rudeness from passengers (although more often from putative fare-dodgers); bad driving and inconsiderateness from most other road users; and the requirement to meet any number of (often totally conflicting) demands from my ultimate employer, TfL.

Don't get me wrong, I think my wage is fair, but it's certainly not excessive. I happen to have a private school education and 3 A-Levels (As in Physics and Chemistry, C in Maths); I flunked out of university. If I'd known then what I do now I'd not have messed around for years trying to get back into uni, working in retail or (subsequently) in the civil service. I'm 28 now and I'd be a lot wealthier if I'd been driving a bus since the age of 22.

Essentially, the other posters saying that people doing unpopular jobs, or skilled manual labour are often the ones earning the most are absolutely right. My bus company certainly pays most of its office staff less than us drivers.

Rave, you would earn more and have no hassle from passengers if you took your HGV test, last year i earned £28000 driving a 8 wheel tipper truck.

low level office staff are ten a penny!

Edited by HenryWeston
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Who'd have thunk it?!!

Over 10,000 views in less than 2 days!

Can I have a new title next to my name please?

Something like 'Interesting Thread Starter'

:lol::lol::lol:

Only when someone comments/debunks my post:

Not many people are aware of this but anyone from EE thats over here working is also entitled to Child Benefit too, even if the children aren't in the UK. Actually come to think of it, there's nothing stopping immigrant workers claiming Working and Child Tax Credits as well.

Great. We're actually subsidising immigrant workers wages while our own indigenous unemployed benefit claimants are enjoying their 'free lunch'.

The UK: Isn't it great!

Are we the only country that has this ridiculous Tax Credits system??

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I've just got in from the pub and have laboured though a load of self-pitying posts from graduates who seem to think that just because they have spent a few years at uni studying the f*** out of some obscure sub-subject that companies should be fighting over themselves to employ them.

Sorry guys, but have you never heard of supply and demand?

It doesn't matter how clever you are...

It doesn't matter how talented you are...

It certainly doesn't matter how qualified you are...

An employer is interested in one thing only;

How much money can you make them?.

If you can make your employer £100k per year they might pay you £25k

If you can make your employer £1m per year they might pay you £250k

But if you are only going to make your employer £20k per year they're going to pay you f*** all!

Cos that's what you're worth.

Rather than bleat on about not being given a chance by horrible employers go freelance or self-employed. You'll soon find out what you're worth in the marketplace.

If you can't face that, then retrain as a plumber or a tube train driver!!!

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Only when someone comments/debunks my post:

Are we the only country that has this ridiculous Tax Credits system??

I agree that to divvy out benefits to migrant workers is madness.

However,

The tax credit system has merit.

It was a Tory bloke in the 70's who first went around espousing the virtues of a 'negative income tax' system. McCleod I think his name was.

Basically, the idea was that people on low incomes received income tax from the Inland Revenue, while people on higher incomes paid it. This system would render all other benefits obselete.

It took 25 years and a 'Labour' government to implement this scheme, under the name of 'tax credits'. While the execution may have been a little problematic, I don't think many people would object to the concept.

We'd better get used to it though,

Cos it ain't going to go away!

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No- but then they don't have a f***ing hard job, which often involves getting out of bed at 3am (like this week- I'll be off to bed very shortly), or working until 1.30am; occasional abuse and frequent low-level rudeness from passengers (although more often from putative fare-dodgers); bad driving and inconsiderateness from most other road users; and the requirement to meet any number of (often totally conflicting) demands from my ultimate employer, TfL.

Don't get me wrong, I think my wage is fair, but it's certainly not excessive. I happen to have a private school education and 3 A-Levels (As in Physics and Chemistry, C in Maths); I flunked out of university. If I'd known then what I do now I'd not have messed around for years trying to get back into uni, working in retail or (subsequently) in the civil service. I'm 28 now and I'd be a lot wealthier if I'd been driving a bus since the age of 22.

Essentially, the other posters saying that people doing unpopular jobs, or skilled manual labour are often the ones earning the most are absolutely right. My bus company certainly pays most of its office staff less than us drivers.

Sorry to go off topic but you're not paid nearly enough, was on a bus the other day when the high schools tipped out , the driver had to radio for security to sort the little ba888rds out . Never felt so intimidated in my life, closest thing to a riot I've ever seen.

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My wife and I have an average sized family - 2 kids living with us at home

We live in an average priced house - around £190k

We have an average household income - around £3k per month nett

We have a car each, a 5-year old Zafira on HP and a 10 year old Fiesta.

All in all, pretty average.

However, our mortgage is only £25k with 5 years left, we've no credit cards, and no other borrowing.

We get by OK - not a flash lifestyle and we don't manage to save much, but we live quite nicely.

The average family though, has a mortgage in excess of £100k, credit card debts of over £5k, and other debts to boot.

How the HELL do they survive? The sums just don't add up. Are average people really MEWing and racking up CC debt just to pay for everyday life, never mind the treats?

If so, this situation is even worse than I thought!

I'm in that position but with no credit card debts, I have approx 99,000 mortgage on a 150,000 house with 20 years left to pay. I earn approx 30,000 and my wife about 20,000. However, I'm finding it increasingly difficult and our social life has had to be cut in order to pay the rising monthly bills.

To make matters worse, many of my customers are not spending money and it's likely that my income my drop or even vanish. I work in the building trade and if people aren't spending money on there home then all that's left is landlord certificates and routine / essential maintenance.

Its pretty scary and I fear that another interest rate rise could seriously damage my business.

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I'm in that position but with no credit card debts, I have approx 99,000 mortgage on a 150,000 house with 20 years left to pay. I earn approx 30,000 and my wife about 20,000. However, I'm finding it increasingly difficult and our social life has had to be cut in order to pay the rising monthly bills.

To make matters worse, many of my customers are not spending money and it's likely that my income my drop or even vanish. I work in the building trade and if people aren't spending money on there home then all that's left is landlord certificates and routine / essential maintenance.

Its pretty scary and I fear that another interest rate rise could seriously damage my business.

With an income that size you should nail away the mortgage in fairly short order i think.

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With an income that size you should nail away the mortgage in fairly short order i think.

That's before tax and we have a family to keep. After tax we're looking at around £2600 per month. Don't get me wrong I'm not poor but if interest rates keep rising then we'll be forced to sell and down grade.

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This thread asks How Do People Survive?, Life for the average family is getting impossible.

But for families below average wage it is really really bad. I was suprised that 1 in 4 people in the UK lives in poverty.

"Just under 1 in 4 people in the UK – or nearly 13 million people – live in poverty, according to the latest figures. This includes nearly 1 in 3 children (almost 4 million).1"

http://www.oxfamgb.org/ukpp/poverty/thefacts.htm#1

These figures were based on 2000/2001 so must be out of date by now.

Edited by Malarkey
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That's before tax and we have a family to keep. After tax we're looking at around £2600 per month. Don't get me wrong I'm not poor but if interest rates keep rising then we'll be forced to sell and down grade.

Dubsie,

You've made my point for me.

You earn slightly above the average, have a mortgage slightly below the average, have no credit card debts, and yet you are still feeling the pinch! Imagine how you would be feeling if you had £10k on cards as well, like a lot of people!

You're cutting back on expenditure. Soon everone is going to have to be doing the same, leading to a recession.

Your fears for your business are unfortunately well founded - I am in a similar position. Inevitably we and thousands like us are going to be looking at cutting back on our cost base - that usually starts with laying off staff and cutting back to a core level of business we can cope with on our own. I have recently been adapting my own business plan to include an 'Armegeddon Scenario' in order hopefully to survive. Replicate this thinking across the country had you have mass unemployment!

This isn't just about house prices. My gut feeling is that once the tipping point is reached the whole house of cards that has been so elaborately constructed will start falling around us.

It isn't going to be pretty.

My advice is to concentrate your attention business wise on solid and steady middle aged folk who own their homes outright. Make them the majority of your customer base and there's a chance. Flash the cash merchents are doomed!

Edited by Mr Yogi
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Guest Skint Academic
Sorry guys, but have you never heard of supply and demand?

It doesn't matter how clever you are...

It doesn't matter how talented you are...

It certainly doesn't matter how qualified you are...

An employer is interested in one thing only;

How much money can you make them?.

If you can make your employer £100k per year they might pay you £25k

If you can make your employer £1m per year they might pay you £250k

But if you are only going to make your employer £20k per year they're going to pay you f*** all!

Cos that's what you're worth.

Great argument were it not for one fatal flaw. How do you estimate how much someone contributes? OK, a salesman might manage to bag a multi-million pound contract for some software. So by your reckoning we give them a percentage of that gain. But they're not going to bring in any money at all if they don't have anything to sell.

OK, well let's have a good salesman and hire some 3rd world engineers to knock something up. As long as we have a good salesman the money will come in. Oh look, the salesman didn't manage to sell it because the software doesn't work and doesn't fulfill the client's needs. OK, let's get in some talent to knock up something quickly that we can then sell. Oh dear, the client wants to pay in installments for each successive deliverable and we're getting a bad reputation for not being able to deliver what we promise so other potential sales are falling through.

The situation at the moment is that the true contribution that engineers make is not appreciated.

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