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apn8keh

Ast Ending, Do We Have To Give Notice If We Can't Agree Terms?

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Hi guys,

Been renting current property for 2 years on AST that is due to end early Sept. LA wrote end June to ask if we intended to stay for an extra term, we have to pay £60 to renew or give 2 months notice hand delivered to leave at end of term.

We replied giving ourselves time to serve notice that we'd renew for 6 months provided no increase in rent as it went up last year & the place hasn't seen a penny spent on it in 10 years.

At last years renewal LA called LL & it was negotiated same day. This time heard nothing from LA, so we haven't got 2 months left to give notice. I called & they were quite stroppy saying that LL would prob renew, but we won't find out what rent he wants to charge until the new contract is posted, which won't be anytime soon. Added to this if we don't agree to the new contract we still have to serve 2 months notice even if our fixed term has come to an end & we will have to pay at the increased rent. Can they do this?

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Hi guys,

Been renting current property for 2 years on AST that is due to end early Sept. LA wrote end June to ask if we intended to stay for an extra term, we have to pay £60 to renew or give 2 months notice hand delivered to leave at end of term.

We replied giving ourselves time to serve notice that we'd renew for 6 months provided no increase in rent as it went up last year & the place hasn't seen a penny spent on it in 10 years.

At last years renewal LA called LL & it was negotiated same day. This time heard nothing from LA, so we haven't got 2 months left to give notice. I called & they were quite stroppy saying that LL would prob renew, but we won't find out what rent he wants to charge until the new contract is posted, which won't be anytime soon. Added to this if we don't agree to the new contract we still have to serve 2 months notice even if our fixed term has come to an end & we will have to pay at the increased rent. Can they do this?

If it's a standard AST the tenant has to give 1 months notice (notice period starts from the day the rent is next due). The landlord has to give 2 months notice on the same basis.

The 2 month notice isn't enforceable on the tenant. If an AST expires it becomes a periodic tenancy (ie a rolling basis) which continues on the same terms as

the AST ie at the same rent. During a periodic tenancy the notice periods are as I have just described.

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How do I know if its a standard or non-standard AST (if there is such a thing)?

The contract states " this agreement is intended to create an assured shorthold tenancy as defined in section 19A of the Housing Act 1988 (as amended by the Housing Act 1996) and the provisions for the recovery of the possession by the landlord in section 21 thereof apply accordingly"

These agents don't give you the option of entering a month by month rolling contract they always make you commit to a new 6 or 12 mth term. They wouldn't be able to charge these arrangement fees if you went on a month by month!

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How do I know if its a standard or non-standard AST (if there is such a thing)?

The contract states " this agreement is intended to create an assured shorthold tenancy as defined in section 19A of the Housing Act 1988 (as amended by the Housing Act 1996) and the provisions for the recovery of the possession by the landlord in section 21 thereof apply accordingly"

These agents don't give you the option of entering a month by month rolling contract they always make you commit to a new 6 or 12 mth term. They wouldn't be able to charge these arrangement fees if you went on a month by month!

If at the end of the AST neither party has given the required notice (you 1 month, and the landlord has to give 2 months) then the tenancy becomes periodic

automatically by law. You don't have to sign a new AST if you don't want to. The landlord then has to issue you a Section 21 notice to quit (with 2 months notice)

Basically tell them to get lost if you want to and let them issue a Section 21 notice (or give 1 months notice yourself). Sites like http://www.letlink.co.uk are a source of good information

Edited by mrx998

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Firstly check to see if you have already been served an S21 notice requiring possession. Sometimes this is served near the start of the tenancy, see Wayne's pinned thread "Beware The Sword Of Damocles" for an explanation why this is done.

If you have been served an S21 then you can leave on the last day of the fixed term or anytime after the end of the fixed term, in your case early Sept. Likewise they can ask you to leave anytime after the end of the fixed term provided the notice period has expired, so you don't want to leave things like that and will need to negotiate the renewal or arrange to move asap. Bascially neither side has to give notice as it has already been served, the S21 is the notice.

If you have not been served an S21 then you can leave on the last day of the fixed term without giving notice other than formally handing the keys back so that they are clear you have gone. In practise it's best to give a bit of notice and attend the checkout. Stay even one day over and you will be on a periodic tenancy. Then you will have to give a months notice ending at the end of a period (typically the day before the rent is paid), the landlord will have to give two months notice again ending at the end of a period.

If the tenancy goes periodic and you don't agree to pay more rent then they would have to serve you a months notice of the rent increase. A Section 13 notice.

So if you haven't been served an S21 you can sit tight and see what happens. If you have been served an S21 then you are in the sh1t, so check to see if one was served that you have forgotten about!

Edited by Elvis-Has-Sold-The-Building

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Firstly check to see if you have already been served an S21 notice requiring possession. Sometimes this is served near the start of the tenancy, see Wayne's pinned thread "Beware The Sword Of Damocles" for an explanation why this is done.

If you have been served an S21 then you can leave on the last day of the fixed term or anytime after the end of the fixed term, in your case early Sept. Likewise they can ask you to leave anytime after the end of the fixed term provided the notice period has expired, so you don't want to leave things like that and will need to negotiate the renewal or arrange to move asap. Bascially neither side has to give notice as it has already been served, the S21 is the notice.

If you have not been served an S21 then you can leave on the last day of the fixed term without giving notice other than formally handing the keys back so that they are clear you have gone. In practise it's best to give a bit of notice and attend the checkout. Stay even one day over and you will be on a periodic tenancy. Then you will have to give a months notice ending at the end of a period (typically the day before the rent is paid), the landlord will have to give two months notice again ending at the end of a period.

If the tenancy goes periodic and you don't agree to pay more rent then they would have to serve you a months notice of the rent increase. A Section 13 notice.

So if you haven't been served an S21 you can sit tight and see what happens. If you have been served an S21 then you are in the sh1t, so check to see if one was served that you have forgotten about!

:) The thing in this case though, is that the letting agent has offered apn8keh a new tenancy, so if there is an SoD s21 in place, it is now invalid. apn8keh need only present the letter in court (if the LL tried an immediate eviction) and the judge would rule against LL and a new s21 would have to be issued.

This is the point that is integral to my other post; invalidate the SoD by opening negotiations with the agent or LL in writing, which is exactly what has happened here. ;)

Folks, this is not about being a smart@rse or "professional" tenant, it is about preserving your rights of 2 months notice under the Housing Act 1988. This is what the SoD loophole takes away.

Edited by wayneL

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:) The thing in this case though, is that the letting agent has offered apn8keh a new tenancy, so if there is an SoD s21 in place, it is now invalid. apn8keh need only present the letter in court (if the LL tried an immediate eviction) and the judge would rule against LL and a new s21 would have to be issued.

This is the point that is integral to my other post; invalidate the SoD by opening negotiations with the agent or LL in writing, which is exactly what has happened here. ;)

Folks, this is not about being a smart@rse or "professional" tenant, it is about preserving your rights of 2 months notice under the Housing Act 1988. This is what the SoD loophole takes away.

Wayne, you are quite right, I'd forgotten about the letter by the time I'd read the rest of the thread! I was thinking more in terms of clarifying some of the posts after the first one.

But it's still worth having pointed all this out to apn8keh as if there is an existing S21 I bet the agent wouldn't acknowledge it's now invalid and apn8keh wouldn't otherwise know to use the letter to challenge it.

To sum up, whenever anyone asks about notice I think checking for an existing S21 should be part of the standard advice given out.

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Wayne, you are quite right, I'd forgotten about the letter by the time I'd read the rest of the thread! I was thinking more in terms of clarifying some of the posts after the first one.

But it's still worth having pointed all this out to apn8keh as if there is an existing S21 I bet the agent wouldn't acknowledge it's now invalid and apn8keh wouldn't otherwise know to use the letter to challenge it.

Very true, the SoD relies on deception in more than one way, as you've pointed out here.

To sum up, whenever anyone asks about notice I think checking for an existing S21 should be part of the standard advice given out.

And good advice that is.

Cheers

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Just to update you guys. Hacked off by the unhelpful LA telling me that they wouldn't notify me of a rent increase until it was too late for me to move out, I got the LL number form the neighbour. Had a good chat as I know he wants to sell soon & explained that we'd prefer a periodic tenancy. He did want a nominal increase in rent & so we both thought on it over the weekend.

Anyhow, having checked that we could rent an immaculate 2 bed flat for less than we pay now, we stuck tight & said we weren't prepared to pay more. LL agreed to leave rent as it is (turns out LA not only charge us £60 to renew, but charge him £100 too, so he was just trying to cover his fees)! Also, he is happy for us to have a periodic tenancy as it suits him to be a bit more flexible with him wanting to sell.

Call me cynical, but the LL had already spoken to LA, so they will have known about the rent increase & were trying to keep it from us as long as possible, thinking that if they made us stay an extra 2 months at increased rent then we'd just shut up and stay the full 6 months at increased rent.

I wait in anticipation of the new contract.

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